Ducati Monster Forum

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715c.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715c.htm)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715d.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715d.htm)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715e.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090715e.htm)

...excerpts:

"Here is the press release from Buell regarding their 1125RR, (note second R in designation) a bike not road legal, yet somehow Superbike legal, as per DMG. Isn't it interesting how the Japanese manufacturers are knocked back to Superstock spec this season in Superbike, yet Buell gets to enter a full-on Superbike that isn't even street legal?

Buell will produce a limited number of 1125RR motorcycles for sale only to licensed professional road racers who will compete in the AMA Pro Racing American Superbike class.

from the DMG AMA Pro Racing application form required to enter a bike in the American Superbike class: AMA Pro American Superbike motorcycles must be street certified for use in the United States and be available at the time of competition from U.S. retail dealers. There must be sufficient quantity available such that any person wanting to buy one for racing purposes can do so in a timely fashion. ... Importation must be completed by June 1st of the current season.

Also from that application: Also, it is requested, but not required, that each manufacturer has available one additional street version of the homologated model for display and marketing purposes at each event.

And ...The motorcycle must be a 4-stroke production model with street-use certification in the United States.

Ducati USA's PR man, John Canton, confirmed, for those wondering, that the Ducati 1098R, which is the base for Larry Pegram's Superbike, and is on DMG/AMA's list of approved motorcycles, is street legal from the factory and comes with, you know, headlights and stuff."

I don't understand DMG.  They're not idiots and know how to make a gizillion $.  So why does it seem like they're actively trying to kill AMA racing?  That's not just rhetorical flourish.  It seems like they're trying to kill it.  Would that serve their bottom line in some way that I don't understand?

it's all in the name of cost control and parity, remember?  like, purpose-built race bikes, only available to those who are going to run them in a superbike race.  that are not street legal.  from an american manu, that's just fine.


...i don't effin know.

I'm tellin ya...no more right turns after 2009. I can see it now:

PRESS RELEASE
7 May 2010
AMA Superbike Races to be Held At Oval Tracks

After a season of analysis and deep consultations with riders and manufacturers, Daytona Motorsport Group, owner of the AMA Pro Racing series, has implemented new rule changes for the 2010 season to improve rider safety and produce riveting racing. Starting with the first race of 2010, all AMA races will be held at oval or semi-oval tracks in conjunction with the NASCAR Sprint Cup series.

"Rider meetings in 2009 focused heavily on safety issues at current AMA tracks." stated DMG head Roger Edmundson at a recent press conference. "We listened to their concerns, and through careful analysis we determined that the elimination of right turns, which increases the predictability of race tracks and the consistency of racing, was the best approach to improve safety."

Other rule changes for 2010 include a one-make rule for the American Superbike class (vendor to be determined at a later date), mandatory pit stops, and increased fairing sizes to accommodate larger sponsor logos.

Leading rider Mat Mladin was not available for comment at press time.

I've lost interest. When you have one make of motorcycle that is somehow legal in ALL classes. When you have rules formulas that aren't published, but decided based on the "production" bike that one desires to enter. When you have ruling that seem to favour or prejudice particular entrants, it all starts to look fishy.

I don't like the arbitrary rulings in Grand Am (Screwing Porsche for designing a motor that's fast and in spec)
I don't like competition yellows and inquisitorial penalties in NASCAR

I don't like DMG

I'm really not this cranky normally though.

Just another reason I won't be needing to watch AMA. [roll]

Not following this cluster F gives more time watch to wsbk.....

what he said

Kinda off-topic, but since we're talkin' about DMG homologation rules . . .

Mat Mladin gave an interview to On The Throttle where he talked about how much harder it is to set up the DMG-era bikes because suspension changes take so long with the basically production bikes whereas the old superbikes were set up for quick changes.  It's something I never thought about, but is pretty interesting:

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/240/1/ (http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/240/1/)

now THAT was funny....good parody, even if it does come to fruition...


in all seriousness....I think the holes in their rules for Buell are the same holes that AMA had been harboring for the sake of an American manufacturer in an American series....look at the previously accepted XB-RR that wasn't a roadbike at all and had no homologation except for the 100 or so special orderable units for racing only they produced....I think the teams and manufacturers are not stepping up to scream yet as this bike hasn' hit the race circuit yet and the minute that bike scores a point, then you'll see the fur REALLY fly...because, as I said, the same thing happened a couple years ago with the XB-RR and it went nowhere and the whole thing was silently forgotten about as far as the run of things worth mentioning.

oh well, time will tell....

This could be interesting maybe next year - we could see a CBR1000R^4 or ZX10RR? Fair is fair - I'm sure that enough people one would pony up the cash to get one

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=uni0716 (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=uni0716)

I want to see a Tron Light Cycle in AMA/DMG next year!

just tell Eric Buell that

better idea...Pegram should start running a Desmosedici, because I think that meets homologation requirements and would be a hoot to see running out there.

yeah, but it's not on The List.

oh yeah.. that's doesn't matter anymore apparently.

EXACTLY...that's my point!

Read somewhere that HD's sales are down 90% over the same period as last year....you can bet the ranch that they'll be colluding as hard as they possibly can to get that free advertising.... [bacon]

And while I'm on my soapbox....let's not forget that HD would have gone bye-bye in the '70s if the US Congress hadn't stepped in and passed protectionist legislation that made Jap (read Honda) imports extraordinarliy expensive....

The RR is also not quite the racebike that Pegram has (1098R) either.

The AMA/DMG has a history of allowing not so production american bikes race.  Anyone remember the Harley VR1000?  I think the 1 or 2 street legal ones ended up in Poland.
DMG is killing american motorcycle racing, at least we have 2 moto GP races and a WSBK race.

I think they're down more like 35%, but that's bad enough.

something there is down 90%, saw that on the elevator today  ;)

Collective IQ?

 [laugh]   


From 40 to 4?

mitt

[laugh]

this is whats expected of the bizzaro generation.

http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090717r.htm (http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090717r.htm)

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37360 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37360)

These guys seem really evasive in answering those questions.

I'm spinning... ;D

“Once again, they’ve got to be supported. They can’t just put them out there and walk away from them so only the factory teams can run the bits and pieces. You’ve got to support them and back them. They’re [Buell] willing to support mechanisms in place to support these bikes. As long as people are willing to do that and the thing doesn’t…are we going to allow the Moto Czysz in with a $130,000 bike? No, that’s not going to happen, but if Honda wants to do a CBR1000RR-R with some bits and pieces that make it more suitable for AMA racing and the price isn’t out of line and they’re willing to support it, we would certainly consider it.”

this, from the very guy who wouldn't allow homologation of the the R1 LE.

I guess a D16RR would be out as well.

I can't find a clip of Belushi saying bullshit.

He did say they had to be supported  ;D...and i think $40K was mentioned

i don't think al made that call... he was still with american honda when that bike came out.

I read the DMG stuff.

(http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/exploding-head.gif)

could be. But I remember him talking about why that bike specifically wouldn't have been allowed

was it because there were only 500 of that specific model?

Wow, reads like an Obama news conference. ;D

Harley financial services profits are down 91%.
Harley sales are down 35% for the 2nd quarter only.

I saw that as well. Damn. I guess the heartland really has stopped spending more money than they have on luxuries.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090717rb0907.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090717rb0907.htm)
 
[clap]

RC212V RR?
RC211V RR?
Turbo CRB1000?

The possibilities...

i expect to see a "true" superbike-spec cbr1k "for those willing to pay for it."

F DMG and F AMA racing.  WSBK and Moto GP are where it's at and ALWAYS will be!

mebbe, don't recall.  but that's about 475 more available than the 1125RR, i bet.

"I am ashamed to have missed this chance through our inability to accurately analyze the current rules."
 

[laugh]

mladin:  http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/e/n090718e.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/e/n090718e.htm)

i'd say you're being quite generous on the production numbers of said buell.  ;D

So....

2? ;D

four... maybe six.

unless this bike is also going to be allowed in moto-whatever-they-call-it-this-year, there would only be a few teams interested in the first place.

and like i said to gm2 yesterday, who wants to pay that much money to run that far back in the pack?

some of the guys have shown what they can do with a built-in-their-own-garage gsxr... my guess is some of those guys will finish well in front of 1125RR.

I'm curious why people keep referencing Ducati in this thread. How is the 1098R a cheater bike? Seriously.

(4 banger guys stfu about the displacement thing ok? Thx ;) ;D)

http://www.aliceteam.com/en/ (http://www.aliceteam.com/en/)

Different venue...

but there must be someone. :P

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2435/3733899512_eee5fe8f54_m.jpg)

It's been a while since they updated their site.

If you look really really closely there is mention of '09 and Canepa and Kallio. [laugh]

They're in the bigs though. ;)

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/07/18/mladin-speaks-out (http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/07/18/mladin-speaks-out)

Can't say that I blame him.

some contend that Pegram's bike has F09/non-homologated/not-available-to-anyone parts on it

which, with the current ruling on the 1125RR, why wouldn't it be legal for pegram to run an 1198RS?

ducati builds 'em... ducati supports 'em...

sounds legal to me.

the customer superbikes don't fit into the amorphous DMG definition of affordable..?

well, they'll of course have to make some considerations for ducati. i mean, the street bike that the racebike is based off of costs as much as this new buell.  ;D

I like Mladdins point - a company could build a quarter million dollar prototype and still run in 10th if they don't have 1) the riders and 2) the support team.

He will probably get a scolding for this quote too:

"Q: You've run teams in the past, and that's probably something that interests you. Does this series interest you?

A: Oh, not at all. Oh, God no. No. I wouldn't - I would prefer to stick a screwdriver in my eye, rather than having to race like this, yeah, with my own team."



what a mess.

AMA has a *serious* problem when the points leader, likely champion and __-time champion of the series is saying that it's shit and that he's going to retire because he's lost interest b/c of what's going on off-track.  Gawd, this is make the beast with two backsed. 

it's really become almost exactly like watching american politics.  only, the DMG'ers don't recognize that we DO have other options and don't care if they fail completely.

http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2009/us-superbike/middleohio/2/2.htm (http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2009/us-superbike/middleohio/2/2.htm)

http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2009/us-superbike/middleohio/2/9z.htm (http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2009/us-superbike/middleohio/2/9z.htm)

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37389 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37389)

Wow. Ulrich hit the nail on the head and pulled no punches.

Those pics of Mid-Ohio were pretty funny though.  [laugh]

What an article!! Imagine an organization run by incompetent leadership...to think that could happen in the USA.  DMG has make the beast with two backsed AMA roadracing much more than the AMA could have even managed to if they tried.

In the pre-DMG days, no one could ever imagine that a day would come where motorcycle fans and the racers themselves would pine for the way AMA was run in '07 or 08.

[clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

Like the arbitrary and unfair decision to not allow a Tiger mascot on the starting grid [bang] [bang] [bang]

http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090721akurdler.htm (http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090721akurdler.htm)

I was wowed by the rinky-dink manufacturers midway at Mid-Ohio. No displays from Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki and most telling by its absence was Honda, with no display at the Honda Super Cycle Weekend. Now tell me this isn't a series in trouble.

Very true...

So, DMG is condoning cheating and AMA sucks across-the-board, leaving us with boys on dirt bikes jumping over big piles of dirt inside the Astrodome or other kids riding dirt bikes with ten-foot long swingarms up the sides of steep banks.  Pretty soon it'll all boil down to a motorcycle sideshow at Monster Jam or Hulk Hogan drag racing against one of his kids :-\

Not a bad description of the direction AMA racing has been going. It's reminded me at times of both a monster truck jam and WWE. Or Monday Night Rehabilitation from Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/).

Theory: the quality of the event is inversely proportional to the number of people with suction cup mohawks who show up.

Ouch.  Ouch, ouch, ouch.

WTF going to happen at the end of this year?  Is DMG *really* going to try to do this same thing for another year?

Doesn't really matter to me.

I stopped watching a long time ago. [thumbsup]

I wasn't watching at the beginning of the season, then watched a bit and now don't watch.  But I thought it would be temporary.  I figured that it would just be one year while they worked out the kinks, had all sorts of internal squabbles and then got their shit together so that we have good US racing to watch in 2010.  But it's really not lookin' hopeful.   This isn't teethin' problems anymore.  It's starting to look like a catastromake the beast with two backs for US racing. :-\   I hope I'm just crying that the sky is falling and there's nothing to worry about for next year. 

Remember way back, a few years ago, when manufacturers used their AMA racers in their ad campaigns?
I went back a few years and kind of skimmed through the major moto rags I have subscribed to over those past few years and it was like a light switch. There was no gradual phase out of the AMA guys in their advertising, it was an immediate and complete shut off of the proverbial switch as soon as DMG started making stupid decisions.

Heck, even the equipment and gear manufacturers have done the same.

I am just waiting for club racers to start showing up in their ads. Lord knows club racing isn't painful to watch like AMA "Pro" racing has been of late.

Rob McCurdy's article (read the whole thing not just the excerpts in the SBP article...) pretty much hits the nail squarely on the head for me.

as a side note... I thought Jason Pridmore did a great job.


Time to ditch GW all together.

I was planning on going to the round at NJMP this year but decided not to a couple of months ago because I don't want to support the DMG. I feel bad for the racers though, especially the privateers.

The whole shut-anyone-out-who's-negative thing kind of reminds me of a cult.

dean adams op/ed on the whole silly mess

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090722olliedean.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jul/090722olliedean.htm)

Is the 1125RR legal for the Daytona Sportbike and that Sport Touring Twins class as well?

Wow, let's not let outright falsehoods pass uncommented.

Harley-Davidson worldwide sales were down about 14% last year.  Their sales drop was less than any of the "Big 4" Japanese manufacturers.  Their profits were down as well, but they made money - something that can't be said for all four of the big four.

Second, Harley petitioned the U.S. government for relief from unfair trade practices of the Japanese in the early 1980's, not the 1970's.  Perhaps you are not old enough to have been buying new motorcycles and riding in 1975-1985, but I was, and I can tell you that when Yamaha was selling big-bore V-twin streebikes (the original XV920RH; a DUCATI wannabe, for one) for less than ONE HALF their original MSRP in the U.S., even when those original MSRP prices were OVER 50% less than the exchange-rate MSRP for the same bikes in other markets, it was pretty obvious what their intent was.

Harley-Davidson had just emerged as a privately held company from under the fairly brutal ownership of AMF (American Machine & Foundry), which ran Harley as a cash cow, extracting profits, and investing virtually ZIP in new product or production techniques.  The company was weak and vulnerable, but had the Evo twin on the drawing board and the styling and design genius of Willie G. Davidson, grandson of the founder of the company, on their side.  They were facing marketplace extinction at the hands of the Japanese big four who would have liked nothing better than to have no domestic competition at all in their largest export marketplace.  They were all actively subsidizing their own liter-plus products with profits from their smaller bikes.

The U.S. government granted Harley's petition, setting a 5-year sliding scale (reduced each year) tariff on imported bikes of 700cc and above.   Japanese (or any other) bikes produced in the U.S. were exempt.  Small scale importers like Ducati, Moto-Guzzi, and BMW who were nto engaged in unfair trade tactics of their own, weere also excluded.  The first year the tariff was 45% of manufacturer's cost (not MSRP); the second year 35%, then 25, 20, and finally 10%.  The Japanese built 699cc bikes to undercut the tariff, moved production of heavyweight motorcycles to the U.S. to avoid the tariff, Harley brought out the EVO engined Sportster and then big twin, recovered economically, and petitioned for an early end to the tariff BEFORE it expired on its own.

Sheesh.

All this Buell and Harley and DMG hate.  I've raced under Roger Edmondson's organizations (CCS/ASRA 1989-2004 and AMA Moto_ST last year) and I think he does a pretty damn good job of making racing affordable to the club racer, accessable to privateer pros, packagable and saleable to marketing and media organizations, and palatable and interesting to fans.

If you want to hear a Regional multi-time champion who spent the bulk of his career racing for Kawasaki, who has switched to Buells, talk to Rick Beggs of RnR Cycles about the differences in support for a grass roots level guy who spends his own money campaigning bikes at the top of the club level, trying to hang in there as an ASRA and AMA Pro.   The differences are astounding, and they are not in Kawasaki's favor.

There are, as always, two sides to every story.  This thread just seems to be one side ripping a new asshole for the other side without any consideration that nothing is ever that cut and dried or black and white.

Most of the riping is the fact that the rules apply to everyone except Buell.

except, one would hope, seeing as they are now the sanctioning body of AMA Pro Racing, regulations DMG puts in it's own rulebook.  what they did with the 1125RR was black and white completely against the spirit and the letter of their own racing program.  at the time.

how ironic that the bike itself lasted one event.  maybe their bullshit series will only last one season.

I would love to consider the other side, but as with NASCAR, they don't tell you. When asked pointed questions, they become evasive & belligerent (see the roadracingworld.com interview) or simply don't explain at all.

I just want to know how a bike from one manufacturer can be eligible to race in ALL the DMG classes, but other makes have restrictions. It's not based on a formula. It's not published in advance. It's not applicable to all makes, models & teams and it reeks of favoritism.

Other than that, I'll take your word for it that they're a bunch of good guys out to help club racing go pro.

BISS Racing

Because
I
Say
So

Please, don't take my word for it.  I'm just providing a single dissenting (or alternative) viewpoint in a thread that seemed pretty monotonously one sided.  I'm sure there are club racers (as well as AMA pro racers) out there who would vigorously disagree with my viewpoint.  And that's okay; they are certainly entitled to their opinions.

As far as John Ulrich and RRW&MT is concerned, I don't have to read the magazine (though I do read it; I've subscribed for years) to know that he is going to be critical of the AMA and DMG and organized American roadracing in general.   I've met John and attended Team Hammer trackdays, and my personal opinion is that he is a combative, irritating, domineering, self-satisfied, arrogant, prick.  He also happens to be smart, energetic, driven, concerned for motorcycle roadracer's safety, and a pioneer in roadracing risk abatement.  I am a contributor to his air fence fund.   Nonetheless, I take what he has to say about the AMA and DMG with a grain of salt, knowing his background and history with both the AMA and Edmondson over the years.

As far as which classes Buell motorcycles in their various guises are eligible for, and which ones Japanese (or other) manufacturer's bikes can compete in, my sense has always been that at the factory level, those folks can sure enough take care of themselves, and if they can't get what they want by squealing to the media, arm twisiting in back rooms, or subtle (or not so subtle) financial threats, they can (and have, in the past) take a hike to express their displeasure.  When enough do it, the sanctionng body (no matter who it is) gets the messages and finds a compromise position.

In the meantime, Buell is not exactly dominating AMA racing, no one is talking about racing on oval circuits, the show is still quite exciting to watch (hell, I think little Chrissy Ulrich even finished in the top 10 at Toledo, and it wasn't too dangerous for him to hike up his skirts and race) so I am, quite frankly, mystified at all the angst.

It's always good to meet a fellow Ulrich admirer.  [thumbsup]

That is an extremely well formulated position and excellently written. You know this is the Internet, right?  [laugh]

DOH!  Sorry, my bad.  What could I *possibly* have been thinking?

it was a moment of clarity caught between rounds of Corona Light and fine Tequila that you just were running on instinct with and happened to type out in a very uninternet way....



yeah..that's it, that's the ticket!   

 [laugh] [cheeky] [drink] ;D ;)

Back to our normal reply:

You suck

You're ignorant

You're ghey!

come on man.  how dare you use the proper your vs you're.

Your right, make the beast with two backs you.

 ;D

and your little dog too!....

just don't come waltzing into my shop with that little dog mounted and stuck complaining of how you can't get it off!

ur orl dum.

Theirs know whey eye cn reed anymoore.

this is more about the entire issue, but that doesn't need yet another thread.

Schwantz on DMG:

http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Aug/09081334ondmg.htm (http://superbikeplanet.com/2009/Aug/09081334ondmg.htm)

There are a few paragraphs in the new RRW issue with DMG's side of the "bent" rules.

The last bit makes a little bit of sense in that DMG says it would work with any maufacturer who'd put a "factory" bike up for sale to the "racing" public.  Like that bad a$$ GSXR in this thread!  [evil]  The quote is something to the effect that a $40K factory bike is a lot less then what the privateers are already spending at this point.

I don't know if it's true but it makes a wee bit of sense.

Shoot, the Ducati is $40k before you bolt a single piece of unobtanium on the beast.

Otherwise these cats have screwed the pooch.

Are the races on TV this weekend? [laugh]

Just as an FYI, a two-bike competitive Moto_ST sportbike privateer effort last year, with lots of help from our sponsors, cost $30k for two Ducati 800SS motorcycles, plus another $35K for expenses, for four out of the seven races that were run.  We went broke at that point.