Horizontal Cylinder
Intake
Open Clearance: .05mm (.001968inch)
Closing CLearance: .055mm (.00216inch)
Exahust
Open clearance: .095mm (.00374inch)
Closing CLearance: .045mm (.00177inch)
Vertical Cylinder
Intake
Open Clearance: .10mm (.00393inch)
Closer: .05mm (.001968inch)
Exahust
Open Clearance: .09mm (.00354inch)
Closing CLearance: .07mm (.002755inch)
Does this look like i did it right? that damn keeper spring is really make the beast with two backsing annoying. i checked double check and triple checked it, then i did it the old fashion style checking underneath the closing shim. Are the DS1000 valve specs the same as the other 2v bikes?
my next question is, how do i order my shims? my micrometer isnt comming till this weekend. i assume, i just measure my shim, and add the value that would get my clearnaces to within range? (ie. if my gap is 2 inch, it should be 1 inch, and your shim is 1 inch, you just buy a 2 inch shim...) also it looks like the shim have a cavity in them from the EMS pic. Is there a specific way to measure the opener and closing shims?
redial posted these specs from ducati suite
QuoteThese are the valve specs for the 2v engine (Monster, SS, ST2 etc.) Note that these are on the tight side, it wouldn't
hurt to keep them on the high side (.004" for the intake openers, .005" for the exhaust openers, and .001" for the
closers). A clearance of .000" is possible, but very hard to obtain. .000" is a condition where there is no difference
between the loaded and unloaded gap. You cannot fit a feeler gauge in between the closing rocker (bottom) and the
closer shim, but can still turn the closer shim with your finger.
Intake openers: .003"-.004"
Exhaust openers: .004"-.005"
Intake closers: .000"-.001"
Exhaust closers: .000"-.001"
NOTE: 4v motors have a whole different set of clearances, on the looser side of the 2v. I am only listing them here as
reference.
Intake openers: .003"-.005"
Exhaust openers: .005"-.007"
Intake closers: .000"-.004"
Exhaust closers: .000"-.004"
in the article he says that you dont need to worry about closers until .0015"
im not sure what the acceptable tolerance for openers is
Can't tell if you did it right just by your numbers, the clearances *could* be what you've shown, they're not impossible.
You need a tool to measure the closers properly, EMS sells 'em.
Your micrometer spindle may fit down into the cavity on the opener shim, but it may not.
---------------
edit
From your thread on the belts, it sounds like you measured the valve clearances when the engine was still hot.
If you did, then it was just practice.
:'( i did?
the rocker arms were already cold to the touch when i started working on em. I remember i got home at 830, called up el matador and at 10... and i had the valve covers open by 11. and fiddled with the belts and started measuing at 12.
how long should i let it cool down for? im not sure i
it only took about 30 mins to get the measurements, should i do them again to be safe?
Your post:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=27117.msg472392#msg472392 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=27117.msg472392#msg472392)
Sounded to me like the engine was still hot.
If it *was* cold, well, then you should be OK with the measurements you've done.
recheck the specs again today, they were the same as yesterday. the valves themselves were cool enough by the time i checked them.
im on ems site to order the closing measuring tool. but wht if the spindle on the micrometer doesnt fit the opener? how am i suppose to measure it then?
also why would certain clerances get tighter? it looks like i have to order a few new shims as well as sand a few down
heres what im thinking so far
Horizontal Cylinder
Intake
Open Clearance: .05mm (.001968inch) Should be.003”-.004” SAND DOWN
Closing CLearance: .055mm (.00216inch) Should be.000”-.001” PURCHASE
Exahust
Open clearance: .095mm (.00374inch) Should be.004”-.005” SANDDOWN
Closing CLearance: .045mm (.00177inch) Should be.000”-.001”PURCHASE
Vertical Cylinder
Intake
Open Clearance: .10mm (.00393inch) Should be.003”-.004” Getting close, purchase
Closer: .05mm (.001968inch) Should be.000”-.001” PURCHASE
Exahust
Open Clearance: .09mm (.00354inch) Should be.004”-.005” SANDDOWN
Closing CLearance: .07mm (.002755inch) Should be.000”-.001” PURCHASE
Assuming the valves were set correctly last time, valve and seat wear contribute to openers going tight and closers going loose.
IIRC, there may be a Kawasaki valve shim that'll fit in the openers, but I could be wrong.
Some folks don't have a problem with the spindle fitting in.
Or perhaps they grind the spindle down.
I'm not grinding on my Starrett.
I made a small tool for measuring them.
these'll do the job
(http://www.compendiumarcana.com/caliper/caliper.jpg)
35 bucks from desmotimes.com
probably like 10 from harbor freight
i got mine for 20 from a carlisle show
good luck! post pics and a write up on the actual change if you have a free hand for a camera!
i bought something liek this (http://www.penntoolco.com/images/catalog/6503.gif)
not quite sure what the difference between a micrometer and a caliper is. they operate differently, but they measure the same thing dont they? one just has a tumbler the other is a ruler.
Quote from: He Man on July 23, 2009, 03:18:27 PM
i bought something liek this ~~~
not quite sure what the difference between a micrometer and a caliper is. they operate differently, but they measure the same thing dont they? one just has a tumbler the other is a ruler.
The pic you posted is a micrometer.
redial posted a Caliper.
i know which one is which, but dont they both do the same thing? just one uses a spining handle, the other one is on a ruler.
They've both got the same basic purpose.
Caliper is more versatile, at a small cost in accuracy.
should i have gotten a caliper instead? the micrometer looked like the better choice
Both have their uses. In this case use the micrometer and measure the center of the shim. The shim will wear in the middle where the cam rubs. The caliper would give a false reading (depending on how worn your shim is) because it would read the thickest part at the edge. Probably not much of a difference, but a difference nonetheless.
quick question, i checked my valves after speeddog said they might of been innaccurate and i got the same readings...3 days later (today) i checked them again since i got my micrometer...the reads are ALL very very off. i have teh valves locked in place with a 6mm allen key through that hole on the side and the only way to get close to my original readings is to litterly lift the valve off the opener with my hands. itll stay this way for a bit and then settle back to the new readings which some are insanely tight...
any words of wisdom here?
Quote from: He Man on July 24, 2009, 05:40:24 PM
<snip>
any words of wisdom here?
quit trying to force things. ;)
the feeler should slip in without lifting the rocker...
period.
I need to get smaller feelers then. My .04mm won't fit into the foward intake do they even sell something smaller? I should get inches instead
my micrometer is in inches too
Quote from: He Man on July 24, 2009, 06:21:16 PM
I need to get smaller feelers then. My .04mm won't fit into the foward intake do they even sell something smaller? I should get inches instead
my micrometer is in inches too
.04mm is just over .001". I don't think you'll find much thinner than that.
Are your closers really loose?
I'm checking right now... The top cylinder if the rod is in to stop the cam from spinning, can you check it then? The intake is locked tight at that point. I'm checking it when the dot is at the 7oclock position... Again ds1000...
I really don't understand this... My valves are cold so the readings should be larger? I
here's my notes
horizontal
exhaust
unloaded .05 mm
loaded no change cannot get closer to spin
Intake
cAnnot fit feeler
cannot get closer to spin but I feel the closing rocker arm click when I push it down.
Vertical
exhaust
unloaded tad less than .04mm
loaded .07mm
intake
loaded .05mm
unloaded.04mm
however I'm still not sure if I'm doing the vertical cylinder right. I have the valves all closed at the 7 o'clock pos. I think the cam lock is for setting the belt only.
Not sure why my readings are so different from before.. another thing i noticed.. those helper springs are really make the beast with two backsing strong!
checked again today, same results. looked up some stuff on the DMF, 7 oclock on the vert pully or 3 oclick facing the horizonal pully will yeild TDC for vertical cylinder.
still cant figure out wtf is up with my readings. There are some topics that suggest i use the smallest shim and use that as a basis of how large the new shim i purchase be....
Quote from: He Man on July 25, 2009, 03:10:57 PM
checked again today, same results. looked up some stuff on the DMF, 7 oclock on the vert pully or 3 oclick facing the horizonal pully will yeild TDC for vertical cylinder.
still cant figure out wtf is up with my readings. There are some topics that suggest i use the smallest shim and use that as a basis of how large the new shim i purchase be....
Yeah...you need to be able to measure. If you have to change shims to do it...so be it.
What isn't making sense is that both the openers and closers are tight.
There are marks on the bike for where the belt pulleys line up.
Pull your belts to measure. It's waaay easier.
i agree with the belts, it makes life easier, but at the same time those helper springs are REALLY tough. i wish i had a special tool to spin the cams!
Quote from: ducpainter on July 25, 2009, 03:56:45 PM
What isn't making sense is that both the openers and closers are tight.
im trying to figure out why i have the same issues. this is assuming that the guy who did my vlaves durring my valve guide warranty didnt mess up because they were pretty off when Jay checked them out (ECS).
how much weight do you have to apply on the closing rocker to get the valve to settle?
Quote from: He Man on July 25, 2009, 04:13:36 PM
i agree with the belts, it makes life easier, but at the same time those helper springs are REALLY tough. i wish i had a special tool to spin the cams!
im trying to figure out why i have the same issues. this is assuming that the guy who did my vlaves durring my valve guide warranty didnt mess up because they were pretty off when Jay checked them out (ECS).
how much weight do you have to apply on the closing rocker to get the valve to settle?
You let Jay adjust your valves.... :o :o :o :o just kidding
Why are you trying to spin the cams?
i meant pully. ( dude, i havent slept in about 3 days, so if i make even less sense than usual, just give me a 12 hour ban [bang], 12 hours cause i need to come check this thread tomorrow!!!
Quote from: He Man on July 25, 2009, 04:36:37 PM
i meant pully. ( dude, i havent slept in about 3 days, so if i make even less sense than usual, just give me a 12 hour ban [bang], 12 hours cause i need to come check this thread tomorrow!!!
Still...
why do you need to spin the pulleys past the range where the valves are closed?
mostly to get the vertical belt back on. theres not enoug harea for a finger to fit in there. and its not like i can use the belt to spin it either cause then the belt wouldnt go back on the drive pulley.
i also turn it to cycle the cams and recheck my measurements. on the horizontal its fine but the verticsal one is a big pita
Quote from: He Man on July 25, 2009, 04:53:49 PM
mostly to get the vertical belt back on. theres not enoug harea for a finger to fit in there. and its not like i can use the belt to spin it either cause then the belt wouldnt go back on the drive pulley.
i also turn it to cycle the cams and recheck my measurements. on the horizontal its fine but the verticsal one is a big pita
yeah...
getting the vertical into position is tricky, but it's not that hard...
even an old buck like me can do it.
Young guy like you should have no issue. ;D
You don't have to spin the pulleys/cams to check measurements.
The important thing is to make sure the half rings are seated on the closers.
Can you feel much drag on the cams when you spin the pulley inside the range where the valves are closed?
there is an insane amount of drag however, its from the keepeer arlings not the canes unless someone omeds jp wihnother plan
Quote from: He Man on July 26, 2009, 12:19:10 AM
there is an insane amount of drag however, its from the keepeer arlings not the canes unless someone omeds jp wihnother plan
When you come around...
try that one again. ???
Quote from: He Man on July 26, 2009, 12:19:10 AM
there is an insane amount of drag however, its from the keepeer arlings not the canes unless someone omeds jp wihnother plan
i dont remember posting that.....
let me give it another try though....
theres no drag when the pully is around the area of TDC, its spin freely for about 90 degrees and then it actuates the rocker arms for intake. normal operation from what it seems. and ducati should add a dot on the pulley for vertical TDC so you can find it without belts.
Quote from: He Man on July 26, 2009, 09:35:22 AM
i dont remember posting that.....
let me give it another try though....
theres no drag when the pully is around the area of TDC, its spin freely for about 90 degrees and then it actuates the rocker arms for intake. normal operation from what it seems. and ducati should add a dot on the pulley for vertical TDC so you can find it without belts.
There were marks on the pulleys of the DS 1000 I helped ducvet with. There were also marks on the belt cover backing/cam end cap.
Anyway if there isn't drag in the area of valves closed there should be closer clearance...or you just don't have the 'feel' of it. You said you couldn't spin the shim, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is no clearance.
Like I said before it's very unusual to have tight openers and closers. As the valves wear they generally wear into the seats which would give loose closers and tight openers.
Somethings up.
How long ago did Jay adjust your valves?
there is 1 mark on it, but that dot is suppose to help find horitizontal TDC though, not vertical. ill try looking closer for them.
jay opened them up and started doing the inspection, but it was never completed because of the valve guide issue, he just closed it up and i sent the bike over to Gold Coast to get it covered under warranty. they had to remove the heads and the valves to get the new guides pressed in and reshimmed it. it ran when i got it back, it didnt run any worst or any better.
Do you have a shim kit?
no, but im thinking its a good idea to pick one up. I took off the openers cleaned them and the valve stem, put it all back ogether and started her up. let it cool down measured, and did it again to double check my readings. they make a lot more sense now. I dont know what changed. but im getting consistent readings.
Openers
.045mm
.04mm
.04mm
.05mm
Closers
.03mm
.04mm
.04mm
.03mm
they make much more sense. im about to go pick up some sand paper to get those openers where i want them and order the closing shim tool.
also theres a little hole on the left side of the engine you can stick the a pin in there and it will lock the cam into the position needed for the belts to slip on. no more cutting up my fingers!!
That makes a little more sense.
That pin is for cam timing.
cam timing huh.... [evil]
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