The guy welds for a living -- does some incredible work in fact. Cleaned his parts with brake clean and then TIG'd over it shortly after. The fumes turned into a toxic gas and almost killed him. (only a few parts per million stuff) Fubar'd him up pretty bad for the rest of his life. Just be careful out there! (this is a reminder -- this kind of stuff happens regularly to folks. Don't be a statistic.)
Link for more readable version --> FULL PAGE VERSION HERE (http://motocreations.com/dmf/WeldingGases.jpg)
(http://motocreations.com/dmf/WeldingGases1.jpg)
That is a horrible story and it sounds like something that could have happened to most people.
I'm glad he's alive, but wow. Brake cleaner + welding = phosgene = severe poisoning and irreversible damage (near death)?
How would you know that without being a chemist? Warning labels tell you active ingredients but I would never have guessed that mixing those two things would lead to poison.
Quote from: wikipediaChlorinated compounds used to remove oils from metals may also react under the UV created during arc welding to produce phosgene.
Scary stuff.
And trying to read that jpg gave me a headache. :P
:o :o :o such a tiny amount and look what it has done to the Guy! Damn that is scary!
Thanks for posting this. I sometimes use brake cleaner for a general purpose cleaner, but not anymore!
Also, the common belief that you can prevent or neutralize the effects of breathing the vapors while welding galvanized steel by drinking milk is an old wives tale.
+! Yes, thanks for posting this.
Quote from: filter on July 23, 2009, 08:35:17 PM
...How would you know that without being a chemist? Warning labels tell you active ingredients but I would never have guessed that mixing those two things would lead to poison.
Keep
all chlorinated hydrocarbons away from intense heat (argon is inert by the way). Low levels of phosgene have a sweet smell.
Quote from: CairnsDuc on July 23, 2009, 09:55:53 PM
:o :o :o such a tiny amount and look what it has done to the Guy! Damn that is scary!
Yup, phosgene is a very reactive chemical, and in addition to releasing hydrogen chloride when it reacts with water, phosgene also reacts with the tissue in your lungs and effectively suffocates you.
Quote from: filter on July 23, 2009, 08:35:17 PM
That is a horrible story and it sounds like something that could have happened to most people.
I'm glad he's alive, but wow. Brake cleaner + welding = phosgene = severe poisoning and irreversible damage (near death)?
How would you know that without being a chemist? Warning labels tell you active ingredients but I would never have guessed that mixing those two things would lead to poison.
The brake cleaner likely has a warning on it advising against heating above 120°F.
Thank you for posting this. When I have a project going I do a fair amount of TIG welding, but I have never used brake cleaner to clean parts.
Mainly because I never thought of it, but more than that, because I didn't know specifically that I could.
For steel I just grind or sand away the top lay to expose "fresh" metal and I never have a problem.
For aluminum, since I don't care to go with the chemical cleaner route, I use scotch brite and again, have never had an issue.
When it comes to chemicals I tend to assume I can't/shouldn't do it unless I know specifically that I can.
Thanks again for posting.
Quote from: NAKID on July 24, 2009, 05:15:17 AM
The brake cleaner likely has a warning on it advising against heating above 120°F.
Ok, well, I hope that's the case.
Either way, it's a good reminder to be extra careful with chemicals.
Quote from: pompetta on July 24, 2009, 04:24:03 AM
Yup, phosgene is a very reactive chemical, and in addition to releasing hydrogen chloride when it reacts with water, phosgene also reacts with the tissue in your lungs and effectively suffocates you.
Even though I am quite aware of the danger associated with hydrochlorides it would have never dawned on me that evaporated brake cleaner would be a problem. Great post, Mark [thumbsup]
Quote from: howie on July 24, 2009, 08:59:18 AM
Even though I am quite aware of the danger associated with hydrochlorides it would have never dawned on me that evaporated brake cleaner would be a problem. Great post, Mark [thumbsup]
+1. If you use it to clean discs any residue gets hot the first time you hit the brakes. Not the same as an open flame on a small droplet but still. Who would guess that could be so harmful. Then again, it does tend to dissolve my driveway when it drips so that should be a hint. Thanks for the post. It's good to be reminded how dangerous these things can be even though we may use them all the time.
Scott
From Wiki:
Chlorinated compounds used to remove oils from metals may also react under the UV created during arc welding to produce phosgene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene)
Quote from: CairnsDuc on July 23, 2009, 09:55:53 PM
:o :o :o such a tiny amount and look what it has done to the Guy! Damn that is scary!
+1
Especially considering all the dumb stuff I do with chemicals in the garage. I sprayed myself a good one, right in the face, with a contact cleaner called "Purple Shower" the other day.
It's a good thing I haven't learned to weld yet, I probably would have done the same thing. :'(
Don't forget cadmium too - it accumulates in the body over time.
For those of us who screw around with polyester resin, the catalyst is another chemical to respect. I read an account by a guy who accidentally squirted some in his eye and in moments his eyeball turned into a useless blob. I use the stuff all the time but after reading about the danger I'm a lot more careful.
Enough of anything will kill you...
it appears there are some things you don't need much of.
Quote from: ducpainter on July 24, 2009, 04:46:09 PM
Enough of anything will kill you...
it appears there are some things you don't need much of.
Freon gas from an airconditioner (R22 and probably also R12, don't know about the new stuff.) + flame also equals Phosgene.
Just welding galvanized steel can make you pretty sick (like it does to me). When the galvanized coating burns off and you inhale it, you can have bad flu symptoms, but I think over time it gets worse. Whenever I am doing any more than a couple of welds, I always wear my 3M bodyman respirator.
Welding on galv gives off zinc fumes and can to lead to zinc poisoning which could kill you if it's bad...
Galvanized fumes get filtered thru the body so there isn't any long term danger (such as with cadmium). I don't get sick from it, just a little high. I weld on it very little though and only for brief periods of time.
A friend of mine decided to build a tire rack in his enclosed trailer for his race car and he used galvanized steel tubing.
As he was unaware of the danger he welded all weekend and by monday he was almost dead from the zinc fumes.
I don't know if the zinc does get filtered by the body or not, but if so Im guessing his filters were full. . .