Ducati Monster Forum

I mentioned this in another thread, but I was wondering, would you sell a fast bike to a new rider? 

Also, as I mentioned, about a year, year and a half ago, I sold a Honda Blackbird CBR1100XX to a guy that had never ridden a bike before.   Also, he was a real little guy, but those little guys are the fastest guys usually.   At least the racer guys I know.  The guy that used to own the Blackbird was also a brand new rider, also his first bike.   He sold that and bought a Hayabusa.   Both guys were students at Cal Poly.   

The way I look at it, it isn't up to me to decide whether to sell to him or not, it's the same money and it spends the same.  They are adults and can make their own decisions. 

If I didn't sell it to them, they would buy from someone who would. 

Different opinions?

My first bike was my S4R ...  Been riding almost 2 years now and never even came close to going down.  I am a little older than the usual new rider. (32)  If you ware worried about your conscience of selling your bike to someone who will potentially hurt themselves or someone else. I think you need to evaluate the maturity of the rider rather than the experience.  Just because the rider has been riding for a few years doesn't mean they aren't an idiot.

Just my opinion

I have a S4R and I know someday I will probably sell it and when I do I will most likely not sell it to some noob rider but that's just me.

On the other hand that person is an adult and they will just go buy from someone if they really want one that bad.

It really depends on the individual and if they can control themselves. I know people who have started on R1s and they have yet to drop there bike many years later but I also have a friend who I let take my old ex 500 for a spin around the parking lot and I glad he hated it because I wouldn't even recommend that guy to buy a bicycle now  ;D

$$$ is money.

Think of it this way, do most dealers discriminate against experience or maturity? 

If selling a bike or not is on the line, you'll bet your ass that they'll sell.

It's a tough call. I know that it's not your responsibility to keep another adult from harming themself or others, and if you don't sell to them,someone else surely will.
That said, I would feel horrible if I sold a bike to someone and then found out that they'd killed or seriously injured themselves(or someone else).
I think it's like Rob said, you have to evaluate the buyer.

I've never been in the position of selling a bike to a newer rider, but I suppose it depends on the vibe. My position is, if nothing else, I would explain that it's not really an appropriate bike to start on. AKA dangerous, and I'd encourage them to buy something more newbie friendly.

+1. I feel the same way. I'm not selling any of my bikes right now, but I'd rather send someone towards a 250 ninja if I caught a whiff of squid upon them.

you've never been to our ducati dealership  :D

if he's a n00b then i would just explain for him the hazards/danger and it will be up to him!

When I sold my 1984 Suzuki GS1150 I put a line in the ad that read:  "This bike is NOT for a new rider, nor for a timid rider."  Fact is, that back was stupid fast and stable in a straight light.  Turned on considering the technology, but it took a little finesse to walk that nearly 600lb machine through a tight corner and any speed.  The brakes were way inadequate for the engine.

JM

+1 more from me. What I have a problem with is dealerships who push new riders into race replicas they shouldn't have. Even a 600cc supersport now has more power, and more opportunities for a new rider to overdo it before they realize it. Unfortunately, these are exactly the sort of bikes being sold to beginners.

My Monster 900 is my first bike. I was 28 when I picked it up, I think always riding with my kids in the back of my mind keeps me alert. I guess if I had to sell it I would probably be a little apprehensive to let it go to someone of little experience. FWIW When I was shopping around at the Kawi and the Yama dealers neither of them would even let me consider the larger, faster bikes. It was the Yamaha dealer who actually sent me to the Kawi dealer to look at the smaller Ninjas.

True story. Last week I was having a couple beers with some folks and one of the guys who had only been riding a moped for two weeks announced he just bought a beginner bike, a Harley Sportster 883. I asked why he thought the 883 was a beginners bike.



"Because it's the smallest bike Harley makes."

 [laugh]....Isn't the 883 a girl's bike?

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0607_hbkp_ss_horsepower_upgrade_kit/index.html (http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0607_hbkp_ss_horsepower_upgrade_kit/index.html)

To save you a little reading time this was an 05' sporty   First things first. The 883ci Sporty was thrown up on the dyno to get some baseline numbers. The bike put out 35.10 hp and 38.37 lb-ft of torque, right where we expected it to be for a stock 883  

I would say that is a beginner bike yes.  Some mopeds are close to that power lol.

I have a friend who was also a member of this forum.  He had an 04' S4R which he sold to a guy in atlanta who was a first time rider.  The purchaser was in his late twenties or early thirties I forget exactly.  Anyway, my friend gets home from selling the bike and the guy calls him on the same day asking how to start the bike (after he had already been shown at the time of purchase).  No matter, my friend walks him though it and hopes for the best.  Next day he gets another phone call.  New rider had totaled the bike in a manner that really sounded like he was trying to pull a wheelie in his subdivision.  I would hate to get that call after just selling a bike.  But thats just me.  It is not about new rider/old rider but more about the individual doing the riding and their personal responsibility level.

Just barely more power than a Ninja 250.   But the Ninja 250 is a bunch lighter and probably faster.


I think a lot of it has to do with who the new rider is.   The guy that I got the Blackbird from was an early 20's college student, pretty sharp guy, that was afraid of it and didn't crash it in the couple of years that he owned it.   I know guys that you can't cut loose on a moped because they are f_cking morons that shouldn't be allowed to own a sharp object.  Every situation is different. 

But still yet, if you've got the cash, I'll sell it to you.

In that case, wouldn't it mean every situation is *not* different?

I think if the new rider has respect for what the bike is capable of, you would be a lot better off than selling the bike to someone who just wants to know how fast it will go.

The thing about a new rider is that they can have a catastrophic accident on any bike, be it a ninja 250 or a hayabusa. I think it is less about the previous experience and more about their future potential.

With that being said, if they want something bad enough, and they have it in their head it is what they need or want or can't live without, they are going to get it, with or without you.

Best I think you can do is sell it and move on, don't think about the person or try to find out how they are doing.

Good Luck.

I think I would inquire as to the person's riding history ,talk bikes for a little while so that I knew they were not talking out their butt so to speak and then make them aware of the potential of my bike.

At that point I feel I have done my duty if they sound like they are experienced.

If they sound like they are very inexperienced, then I would try to steer them toward a more suitable bike for a beginner with the idea that it was in their best interest.

Dolph      :)

Like the original poster says they're adults.

If they are stupid enough to think that they can handle a blackbird as their first bike then let them find out the hard way.

Your system over there in the states seem crazy compared the one here in the UK.

What you can ride depends on your age.
if you pass your test on a 500cc bike then you can ride anything you like.
But you have to be over 21
anyone can sit their test on a 125 and then be restricetd to 33hp for 2 years.
but under 2's dont have a choice its 2 years at 33hp
Thats just the practical test.

Before  you get out on the road at all you need to do CBT  Compulsory Basic Training.
This just teaches you how to start stop and go round corners and changing gear etc and how to brake. without falling off. This course lasts a day.
Then you need to do the theory test and hazard perception test. which you sit at the same time a
Once you have passed all those then you can go out on a 125 on your own or if youre old enough on the 500 with an instructor.


you can ride the 125 for up to 3 years before you need to take the test.

once upon a time you could ride the 125 for ever on Learners L plates without taking the test but they were the ones who died the most so they changed the law.

Licensing here is a joke.  I originally got my license 10 years ago because we had to ride dirst bikes 3 miles down a public back road to get to the trails we rode.

I took the test on a Harley Sportster that i had about 7 minutes of riding time on in a praking lot around the corner from the DMV.  Two figure 8s, stand up sit down, run through the hand signals and off you go to the highway...

There is NO WAY i could have ridden that bike home safely, but i was legal.

Back in my Navy days in the mid 80's a friend had to go to Florida for dive school.  He asked if I would store his early 70's Sportster for him.  "Sure" I said.

He also wanted me to put it up for sale.

So this squid (US Navy type) decides he want's to buy it.  He had never ridden before.  I explained that he should get some MSF training.  Also, it was rush hour and he was going to ride from El Cajon to South San Diego.  He had no gear at all.  No gloves, no helment, nothing.  His friend had a truck and I suggested he put the bike in the truck.  The sun was going down and the temp was dropping fast.  His T Shirt wasn't going to provide any protection at all, least of all from the cold.

The Squid said, "No, I want to ride it home."

The bike was kick start only and I had to start it for him.  I suggested a number of times that he truck the bike home; learning to ride in rush hour, in the dark, in the cold, without gear, was not a good idea.

He would have none of it.

He pulled away from the curb, pinned the throttle, and arced across four lanes of heavy surface street traffic (without getting hit; miraculously) and TBoned a parked car on the other side of the street.

He went over the bars and did a "ski jump" up and over the windshield of the car.

The forks were bent in, and the upper triple clamp was snapped off at the steering stem.  The top of the gas tank was dented where his "naughty bits" impacted while he was on his way over the handlebars.

I feel I did my part: I warned him numerous times, and I had the cash in my pocket.

FTR: with the possible exception of his "boys" his only injuries were scrapped nuckles and elbows.

^

That might be the funniest story I have heard in a while. what a dumbass.



Not my business to play Mommy. Your decision on what you buy.

That was retribution for destroying a perfectly good bike. And, intervention to make sure he didn't pass those genes on to a new generation of cycle destroying ingrates.

I sold my Ninja 250R to a new rider a few years ago.  Seemed like a real responsible guy though, trailer'd it home and everything.  :P

how things are and how they should be seldom coincide.

I have an e-quaintance who works at a local dealer and he tells me horror stories about teaching guys how to ride in the parking lot after they've signed the papers.  Even so much as "this one's the brake, that one's the clutch."  That said, he is conflicted on that topic.  He recognizes the absurdity of the situation, but his boss would fire him in a hot minute if he didn't sell a bike based on rider (in)experience.

It was a Sportster, it wasn't a perfectly good bike. 

 [laugh]

Yeah, I was waiting for that; took less than 12 hours.   [laugh]

Funny thing is, it was a flawed bike even by Sportster standards, yet both me and my friend who sold it think back on it as one of the most fun bikes we've ever ridden, and it was a total clunker, but fun as hell to ride.  [moto]

Well, I would have been quicker on the draw, but I had to work today. 

There is no education/experience requirement to sell a bike. I say the best strategy is, as mentioned in previous posts, talk a bit about the bike and be as clear as possible about its power. Otherwise, we are all adults and have to accept our own responsibility.

Sell on.

I do wonder about someone who has never ridden a bike going to a Dealership and wanting to buy a new let's say "
Super Bike ."

Usually if they are young the Insurance is prohibitive but there are a lot of rich kids and high Insurance costs won't deter them .

Some Insurance Companies won't write certain light weight /high horse power  bikes , especially to the younger riders.

Back to the situation at the Dealer level.

So I come in and let's say I've never ridden but I want that Bayliss Replica 1198 R 'cause I like the way it looks and I can afford it.

You are the Sales person , you would love to sell that bike but how do you handle that sale ?

Do you send me out on a Scooter after you explain how the Scooter operates  ?

I want to ride my purchase home.

Just because I manage to ride the Scooter around the block do you sell the Bayliss Replica for $42,995( plus any tax and fees) to me and hope by some miracle I manage to get it home , even if I only live 5 miles away ?

To me , that would be a very hard sale . Sure since it's a Bayliss Rep. the Dealer would offer to deliver it from a financial perspective.

Let's say I want a 696 used. Now the Dealer doesn't have the same kind of shall we say " financial " incentive to offer to deliver it plus it isn't a potent Super bike .

I'm going to ask my friend who is a Salesman at a Dealership how this scenario is /would be handled by him.

A different angle , but sort of the same thing from a moral stand point.

Dolph       :)

I'm curious how it would be handled by a car dealership factoring in the same power characteristics.  If a 20 year old kid walked into Saleen and asked for a S7 (http://www.saleen.com/saleen_s7_main.htm), and plopped down a cashier's check, would they sell it?

83 GS110e was MY first street bike... loved that thing, great power. I also wrecked it half a dozen times.

I know of a dealership that sold a 1098R and a 1098S to a couple that had never ridden before. One of the bikes was back in the shop pretty soon afterwards getting new fairings.

we know it happens with bikes, I'm wondering if it happens with cars that go 0-60 in 3sec, 200mph?

I should have quoted Dolph's post and not yours to be clear that I was just adding to your obvious knowledge of what bike dealerships do. I've fixed the post.

They wreck those too. Except typically the car has built in safety equipment, so they survive. C'mon-who did you know in high school who had a fast car? A bunch of guys, no doubt, and I have no doubts one of 'em wrecked in a spectacular fashion.

As far as cars go, when I was 18 , there was a rich kid who got a new '69 Trans Am for his 16th birthday. His Father bought it for him.

Another guy whom I used to ride w, got a new '64 Sting Ray Corvette for his 16th birthday.  His Father bought the car for him.

 He still has it.

I've been at MAG in Dublin , Ohio  many times. They sell ( Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Maserati, Aston Martin, Audi, Mini Cooper, Range Rover, Saleen, VW, and Saab ).

I've seen some very young looking boys ( men ) buying most of the more Exotic of those brands .

If they have the $$$$$$ , they can buy what ever is for sale.

Dolph     :)

 

yeah, that's a pretty good point.


It's one of those things that gets a lot of press around here.  The local paper is decidedly anti-motorcycle and has run statements like "sportbikes are replicas of racing motorcycles and require no special training to operate."  Hey, guess what, fast cars take no special training to operate either.


So should the dealers and manufacturers take steps to solve the problem before government does?  Seems like all I've been hearing lately is how motorcycle fatalities have risen over the last couple years.  California DMV had a half-hearted attempt to raise driver awareness of motorcycles, but has seemed to have zero effect.

Until someone shows some leadership and decides it's ridiculous to sell a superbike to a noob, the problem will only get worse and soon we'll have tiered licensing.

I'm not crazy about a tiered system like Europe but it's also not the worst idea.

If you have a valid motorcycle endorsement does a dealer really have a responsibility beyond warning of the dangers? Obviously they want you to survive to need their service and more bike sales in the future but it's the riders responsibility to ride safely and on something they can handle.

My question to dealers is; is it even required to have a license to buy a motorcycle? It must not be here in Jersey because I took the MSF class with some punk who already had a Triumph 675, a suspended car license, had just wrecked his sports car and wanted to know where the nearest stunt riding school was. What this kid's father was thinking is a mystery as he was the one who had to drive his son to the MSF class. I think natural selection will take of this kid breeding more stupid people.

There is no license requirement. I bought my motorcycle without one.


Nor should there necessarily be-I mean-what if my wife had no endorsement and wanted to buy me a brand new BMW GS? I would hate it if she couldn't.

Had a female student in our MSF class show up stating she had "wrecked her R6 - 3 or 4 times" doing slow speed stuff.  Thankfully not in a curve.  She was absolutely petrified of the bike, and was taking riding "pointers" from the salesmen at the dealership.  After discussing with her what a motorcycle for newer riders with limited skills should be - and shouldn't be - she proceeded to bring it back to the dealer and trade it in for a Ninja 250.  She now LOVES to ride.
To this day, the salesman at the dealership still says to me when I walk in to get parts for our training bikes: "boy, we just couldn't make that bike work for her".....no dork, you were looking for the $$$$, not what was good for the rider.

I'll NEVER buy a bike from that dealership and I don't offer their name to any students that ask me about purchasing bikes once the class has completed and they've passed.  Any dealership and salesman with an ounce of integrity would have talked to the person and figured out their skill level.  An R6 or most any 600cc sportbike is not a beginner or novice bike IMHO.

I would feel the same way.  Although the dealership can legal sell any bikes to anybody who can afford it and is licensed to ride, I think a dealership has the moral obligation not to sell (or recommend) some bikes to certain people.  The dealer, mentioned by mcgalinmd, did not do anything wrong by selling an R6 to a lady with limited experience.  But it would lose a lot of points in my book and make me less likely to do business with them in the future.  Just like that POS dealer from S Carolina who posted pics of himself riding with t-shirt, shorts, and flip flops.  I have no respect for people like that.

My 19yo nephew wanted to buy an R1 for his first bike - and he didn't have a valid MC license yet.   He wanted the Liter bike because a 600 "won't have enough power." [roll]  [laugh]

Fortunately, he got an insurance quote before he got serious about buying a bike... [laugh]  IIRC, insurance for a Literbike would have cost him ~$250/month.

About 2 years later he still had not purchased a bike, but he wanted to ride his dad's ZRX and some other friends' bikes during the summer.  I offered to pay half of the cost of an MSF course for him, and he accepted my offer.  He passed the final riding test without a single point deduction.  [thumbsup]

The MSF course should be mandatory before getting your motorcyle license, imo.  It would weed out a lot of the people who think bikes are just "cool" before they get out on the street and are scared to death or get hurt.

Personally I agree, but not everyone involved in the industry feels this way. 

Related story:  I was at an OEM's scooter demo once.  There were some non-riders in the crowd who wanted to take the scoots for a spin around the parking lot.  Not sure why, but the facilitators were allowing it.  :o  One guy (who obviously had never ridden a moto before) got on a scoot and grabbed a huge handful of throttle and launched himself+the scooter at the crowd of bystanders.   [laugh]  Fortunately, there was a curb and a parking lot median that caused the bike to tip over and no one was hurt.

Regarding my nephew, I just feel that my college-student nephew needs at least a little training to ride safely.  I'll be happy to do the same for my own kids and my other nieces/nephews, too.  Until rider training becomes mandatory, I look at this as my way of 'paying it forward' to another generation of riders.   [moto]  ;D

The stats are pretty staggering.  I've got a safety book that references the results of new riders that do or do not take a safety course. 
Those that do not take the course - 70% crash shortly therafter, 30% do not crash.
Those that do take the course - 30% crash shortly thereafter, 70% do not crash.

Interestingly enough, the other day a friend was over and mentioned that he was thinking of picking up a scooter.  Since I disdain scooters (Physics, small wheels = instability)  I started talking to him about a 250 dual sport or supermoto, small Ninja, etc.  His concern was that he hadn't really ever tried one out and that he didn't want to buy something he may not like.  Of course this was my perfect invitation to slide in the MSF.  He of course had no idea anyting like that was even available.  I pulled out my latest Cycle World, showed him the MSF advertisement and an article on a little Honda Supermoto and he was hooked.  I am hoping to hear from him on Sunday.  Maybe he is already signed up.

We are really stupid in America on our drivers training.   I am 30 years old and have never had a drivers education class...  It wasn't even offered where I lived as a kid.  Society tries to protect you from yourself in so many ways.  I can't buy bottle rockets in my state, but it is perfectly legal for someone with zero experience to ride a 160hp literbike.  ???  Each time this subject comes up there are plenty of "I had a friend" stories about someone pulling it off with no problem.  It does happen, but is not the intelligent choice.  You do not lose anything by starting small.  Tiered licensing makes sense.  I hate govt intervention in my life, but if they are at all serious about actually protecting society, this is good policy.  If not this, stop screwing around with everything else! [bang] [bang] [bang]  Let me at least buy bottle rockets and celebrate the birth of our country.

I find most people who don't ride don't know about the MSF.

Anytime someone asks me questions because they seem interested in learning about riding, I tell them about MSF.   

I "sell" it by telling them:
- it's a chance to try out riding without having to invest in a bike or much gear
- it gets you out of the riding test for the DL
- it may qualify you for a discount on insurance
- it may qualify you for a discount on gear

Most people seem to appreciate the value when I tell them about it. [thumbsup]