Ducati Monster Forum

I've never taken an ERC (Experienced Rider Course) and I definitely think it's something everyone should do. 

I was thinking of going with these guys -- http://www.motorcycletraining.com/ (http://www.motorcycletraining.com/) (Team Arizona).

$100 for 5.5 hours on Saturday. And they're in Gilbert, which is probably what made me want to go with them.

Has anyone had any experience with them?

HIGHLY recommended.  I've been riding since I could walk (maybe even before) and got my moto endorsement when I was about 17 or 18..  When waiting for my GT to make it across the ocean to AZ (put a deposit on it sight unseen) I went and took the Intermediate course with Team AZ.  Just to see if I had any bad habits, and also to help lower my insurance. ;)  It was great!  I was by far the most experienced one in the class as most of the other guys were there because they had failed the riding test trying to get their liscense.  I got a perfect score, so the instructor made me pick up cones while she told everyone else what they did wrong. :)  I did learn a lot though, and did discover some bad habits which I hope I've been able to correct.  It's my belief that you can never have too much instruction or practice when it comes to riding motos.

I've never taken a riding course or test to get my license.  I just talked the MVA representative in Florida into giving me a moto endorsement back in '98, and then just went and bought an FZR 600.  All of my "skills" have been born from OJT.  And when I fall off... I mean it!

Oh Ryan, you didn't try nearly hard enough when you fell off.....  [cheeky]

 [laugh]

Michael - I'm interested in your notes from taking the class this weekend....have fun!

So I just completed my ERC with TEAM Arizona -- http://www.motorcycletraining.com/ (http://www.motorcycletraining.com/)

Fantastic!

I got lots of 1-on-1 instruction through each part of the course. And we not only went over technique, but we got to practice everything several times each step of the way.

 [moto]

Things I learned:

1) Look where you want to be.
- Most people know this, but most people don't do it correctly. Looking where you want to be means to look to your destination, not just ahead of your motorcycle. For example, a U-turn means you would look to the other end of the U immediately when you start the turn; not at the apex of the turn, which is what I normally did.

2) No breaking during a turn, but only use rear brake (not front at all) if you have to.
- This was interesting, especially because so many people don't use their back brake at all. First, you need to get to correct turning speed before you enter in a turn. But if you were to use your front brake after that then it would compress your suspension in the front, whereas the back brake would just slow you down. This is more of an issue at really slow and tight turns.

3) What happens when your back tire locks up and you start to skid? Let it skid.
- Don't take your foot off of the back brake if your back tire is skidding, especially if it is skidding out sideways. The reason is is a locked up back tire will simply follow the front and straighten itself out. However, if you suddenly release that tire it be as though you suddenly turned the handlebars and you'll topple over.

4) The left side of the lane is usually the best.
- Make that person behind you see you better by being right in front of him.

5) Slow down, and then punch the gas a little bit before you hit a bump.
- This lifts pressure off of your front tires and extends the suspension, but then you should lift your butt a little bit to not put too much pressure on the back. If you're a big guy like me, this is an interesting trick to master.

6) Turning a Monster tight at a slow speed is difficult
- The trick is to lean far way from the turn, increase the throttle and feather the clutch.

7) If you have to slam on your brakes in the middle of a turn, straighten first.
- This is really important because if you slam on your brakes while you're leaning, you'll run the risk of losing control and flying off of your bike. If something jumps out in front of you, straighten your bike before you touch the brake at all (even if you have to go off the road a little), and then stop.

8) Leather is best
- "In studies of 'survivability' of various garment materials to a 50 MPH ride on asphalt, for example, denim lasted no more than FOUR FEET before wearing through. Kevlar, on the other hand, lasted EIGHTEEN FEET. But standard motorcycle quality (about three times heavier than fashion jacket material) lasted EIGHTY-SIX FEET. That's more than 20 times as effective as your jeans in protecting your hide."

9) Never lay down a bike
- If you're about to t-bone a garbage truck, ride your brakes until impact. With only 2 extra seconds on the bike, it would mean the difference between hitting the truck at 23 mph versus 45 mph.

10) Look at head -- way ahead
- If you're on the freeway you need at LEAST 2 seconds of space between you and the car in front of you, but you need to look down the road about 12 seconds to have enough time to plan for what's ahead.

In a recent study it was shown that in a 30-minute commute if a person followed the 2-second rule and slowed down to maintain that 2-second distance each time someone cut in front of them (instead of going around them or riding close behind), the total travel time was only increased by 1 minute and 30 seconds.

11) Never look down, never look where you don't want to go
- Especially in problem situation -- let's say you hit some gravel on a fast turn and your bike is wobbling, don't stare at the wall you're about to hit, instead look to where you want to go and don't slam on the brakes. Eyes always up, feet on the pegs, look where you want to be, and ride it out.

12) When you come to a stop, stay way behind the person in front of you.
- Keep it in first, keep your hands on the handlebars, and if someone behind you isn't able to stop in time you have room to move to the side of the car in front of you. And now that skidding semi truck is their problem and not yours.

There was a lot of other great stuff, especially the practice on the course, but that's all I care to write for now.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 [moto]

Cool Michael..thanks for writing that up.  I have some controversial/lifetime of riding comments to make...but am pressed for time right now.  Will come back to it...

I'd love to hear the other side of the argument if there is one.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up, Michael -- sounds like a really worthwhile day on the bike.

+1. I have problems with a few of the things listed. Most of the stuff is pretty standard and pretty much the same stuff from the beginer rider corse. Not a bad thing, probably a good refresher. I have a problem for sure with the notion of the back brake while in a turn. Smooth trail braking doesn't upset the front end and I would say telling people to use the rear brake while already in a turn is bad advice. I also have issue with the notion that you should ride out a rear wheel skid. If you are crossed up, then sure, but while the wheel is sliding you dont have control, if the bike is fairly strait then getting off the rear brake wheel get the rear tire rolling again and you will have better control. And I have always felt that these classes need to be tailored better for the kind of bike people ride. On a sporting motorcycle, the rear brake is really not that useful. I see newer riders over using the thing all the time and doing things like locking the rear wheel and also using the rear brake in a turn to "speed check" which is just flat improper technique.

It was the tight, low-speed turn drills that I was told not to use my front brake and to use only my rear brake if I had to.

And it might be because I was having such a hard time with the slow turns. They were trying to get me not to use the clutch to control my speed. ... I don't know about your Monster, but mine doesn't stay under 15 mph smoothly without feathering the clutch. And I don't think they understood that ... or maybe they did and I just wasn't doing it right. Thoughts?

And I agree with you about the rear brake. Maybe I just didn't understand them correctly and they only meant when you are crossed up, but I even raised my hand and asked them to clarify. To me it seems that if a back tire locks up, then it is a lot more likely to start sliding around.

Anyway, it's interesting to hear different sides of an issue.

I always wonder about one person's point of view. I think the guys that taught my class absolutely knew what they were doing, but one of them was a tiny guy -- I probably weight more than twice what he does -- and that's got to play a factor in how he would ride versus how I would ride. Let alone how unique each motorycycle is.

Are you calling me out here Charles? I had to use the back brake!! I was going agricultural!!!  And which brake was I supposed to use once in the gravel, huh?  :o    ;D

I still want to go through my comments...but had similar thoughts about braking.  Although, I do use my rear a lot more than some for slight line adjustments in spirited riding/turns or just using both brakes to smoothly stop in town.  Also to make loud squealling sounds in traffic. :)

Oh - And I agree with Michael.  The best way to modulate very slow speed maneuvers on a Ducati is to just keep the throttle at a reasonable position and feather the clutch.  Otherwise things will be way to herky jerky.

You are absolutely right about the tight slow speed turns. Monster's turning radius is pretty huge and you really do need to do a little clutch feathering or rear brake dragging. I don't think I could pass the old figure 8 inside the box test on the monster.

I did ;)

I came across this today.

"Because highside accidents are so much more deadly than lowside accidents, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends that if a rider locks the rear brake, it should be kept locked until the motorcycle comes to a stop. If necessary, locking the front brake to deliberately cause a lowside is recommended."

- http://motorcycle-glossary.com/high-side/156 (http://motorcycle-glossary.com/high-side/156)

I love how they talk about it like you have all this time to decide. Imagine having your rear wheel locked and skidding and thinking "hmmm, this might end in a high side, maybe I should just mash the front brake and lowside instead."
Nothing against the MSF as I think it is a great organization but I would also counter this by saying losing the rear under acceleration is a much more likely cause of a highside than locking the rear under breaking. Advising people to purposefully make themselves crash is just plain bad advice.

I agree that it's hard to go through all those choices in the middle of a butt-pucker moment.  Also I think you would have less luck forcing a lowside by trying to lock the front on purpose as you would just riding out the rear wheel skid.  I don't know about it being more likely highsiding from losing the rear under acceleration though - The same thing happens if you spin up the rear or slide it from over braking, both situations can result in a highside. Spinning it up is probably more likey from over zealous experienced riders, and skidding more likely from paniccing new riders.  I've personally highsided from locking the rear, getting sideways, and then getting traction when the bike is perpendicular to the direction of travel.   Bikes make pretty good catapults in this configuration. :)

It has been my experience unfortunately to have done both, low & high, and low side lay downs a result of A) too much speed with a dusty apex and B) too much rear brake that put the back of the bike at a 90 to my direction of travel when the peg bit in. The high side, much worse, was from too much speed with a lane change drift that rather than push the bike over farther I grabbed the front brake...front braking launches pretty impressive high sides...the infamous "inverted flying W". I can't see rear braking causing high sides ordinarily, even in all the race footage I've watched, it always seems to be alot of front brake, a quick wash-out, and then the instant grab!  Geronimo!

Been trying to remember this quote I've seen in some signature lines around the forums:

"If you love your bike, set it free....if it comes back, you've probably highsided."

 8)

Here are some of my thoughts on these points....  Hope this doesn't sound preachy.  Just my thoughts/recommendations after years and years of riding.  Part of what's fun about motorcycling for me is the risk, flirting with danger, and putting yourself in a different element.  It makes me feel alive.  At the same time, I don't have a death wish - I would like to contunue flirting with danger for a long time. :)  I am no authority, just like to continue the discussion on riding technique.

Agree.  I am constantly reminding myself and practicing to look as far out as possible.  Things you see looking right in front of your wheel are too late to do anything about.  Train yourself to trust the control you have over the direction you're going without looking at the ground.  Love this quote also: "Make target fixation work for you - aim for something soft".   ;D

Disagree.  We've already discussed this, but... On the street there is no way you should be even close to using up your percentage of available traction.  Scrubbing speed in a corner is not going to crash you.  You just have to be aware of how the front or rear brake will affect where and how your bike is going.  I'm an advocate of learning how the controls on your bike work so that they become natural, instinct.  For example, it's good to know that hard front braking in a corner makes the bike stand up and want to go wide - if you know this in advance, and experience it, you can conciously make a decision to use the front brake hard, and ALSO countersteer even harder to offset the tendency for the bike to stand up, and continue your desired direction of travel.  This is the same as knowing how not to grab a handful of brake in an emergency.  It's something you have to practice - smooth braking and you can use so much brake the rear tire is skimming, or off of the ground, front tire squealing, and stop as fast as possible.  Stab the brake and the front tire, unweighted, is locking up.

Again, good idea to try and get a feel for this.  A good way is on a dirt bike, or even a mountain bike.  Skid the thing around.  See how a two wheeled vehicle reacts.  Every situation is different, and you need to be able to massage the thing back into control, or at least try to decide how you're going out. For example, on my recent near cactus loving experience, I modulated both brakes on and off to play with the limited traction I had to try and stop as quickly as possible.  I'm sure it just looked out of control to innocent bystanders, but I assure you I was making multiple braking choices the entire ride off the pavement. ;)

Agree for the most part.  I am constantly trying to put myself in the best possible location for drivers to be able to see me, and also do not count on any of them seeing me.  Protect yourself!

I have trouble with this one.  Makes sense on a dirt bike, and I know you can extend the suspension on a street bike by being on the throttle, but the situations where I have needed to brace for impact of an obstacle there just isn't time to roll on the throttle.  Usually I try to get my butt off the seat, let the suspension do it's thing, and make sure I stay light and loose on the bike.  Best thing you can do for this in advance?  Make sure your suspension is properly set up for your weight.  If you're using up half of your fork's travel just in sag sitting at a stop light, there is no way it can handle a decent sized bump.  Get your preloads sorted out for street riding is a good start.  Preload with rider on board should have the bike sagging approx 30% of it's total suspension travel, front and rear.

Already discussed also.  Definitely feather the clutch for really slow speed stuff.

I struggle with this one, because it's a hard one to practice.  It's also probably a huge percentage of how people crash. Many of the twisty roads just don't look very inviting running straight off a corner trying to slow down.  I think we need to be realistic about the risks we take riding fast, or even the speed limit in twisty stuff.  If I come around a blind curve at 50 MPH and am faced with a parked car or something...not sure.  Speed is time.  We make our choices and take our risks. Be smart and make sure you are OK with the risks (and consequences thereof) you are taking.  Ride how you are comfortable, and be prepared to avoid a crash at all times.

Not much comment needed on this one!  I would say, again, that we all make choices with the risks we take.  What we wear, and how we ride.  Have I done wheelies in a half shell helmet and t-shirt?  Yeah.  Have I gone to the coffee shop in full leathers?  yeah.  I like my skin, and for some reason as I get older jeans don't seem like a good option on the freeway....or even hitting an oil spot at an intersection at 15 MPH.  I think with how well our bikes handle, it's easy to forget that you're hurling yourself along on a 400 pound piece of machinery at 80 MPH.  So....again...do what you're personally comfortable with.

I think this is good advice.  Hard to practice, and also probably hard to have that much time to think about in those situations.  Do what you can to avoid the crash.

Practice this always!  Also a good way to plan your route filtering through traffic.  [thumbsup]

See #1 above.  Target fixation is real folks. We've all experienced it, and it's so strange how paralized you can get. 

Not so sure about this.  I try to participate in traffic, not put myself in situations where I'm in an unexpected place.  Agree with giving yourself escape routes.  And ALWAYS watch your back.  I always flash my brake lights for approaching vehicles if I am last in line (or first stopped at a light).

I love discussing this kind of stuff.

I just read this on another thread about breaking while turning, it supports what you just said about #2. It's from fasterblkduc:

+1 on what Dietrich said; another reason I tend to stay toward the left of the lane on two lane rural roads (all else being equal) is that it gives me a better look at the shoulder & any critters that are waiting there inclined to try to commit suicide & take me with them. Especially in deer & elk country I make a point of periodically reminding my peripheral vision to stay aware of out of the ordinary things just off the roadway, on both sides.