So, we all know gas is going up... the local news here reports daily on the prices for regular. So this brought up some thoughts...
I've been noticing a lot more scooters on the roads in my area. This might partly be due to the fact that where I live, you don't need to register sub 50cc scoots, and there's a large immigrant worker population (but let's not discuss the politics of that stuff). But I've seen more and more 50+ jobbies on the roads as well, and the local Vespa dealers website touts 55+ mpg as one of the 1st items you see on their website.
With the fuel economy of scooter and many bikes being 2+ times that of most cars, do you expect to see a shift in the US to be more like Europe where 2 wheels is the primary mode of transit for a significant population, and not just play toys like they have been historically in the US?
Of course this will vary a lot by area. For people like me (I live in VA, but still within what was the original borders of DC) it's easier to deal with 2 wheels only. But people out in the real burbs where the closest grocery cannot be walked to, it might not be as realistic...
Just some pondering... any similar thoughts out there?
I think that some people will make the move for efficiency.
But unfortunately with society the way it is, many people will not move to a 2 wheeler for fear of loss of social status. I can see many people making cuts to other things before they sell their SUV or car for a scoot.
Plus, driving on two wheels takes WAY too much concentration for the average person. [roll]
I think this will give some guys a good argument to the wife to get a motorcycle. I know a couple of guys that have been wanting a bike but the wife wouldn't let them get one...until now.
T
Quote from: DucPete on May 22, 2008, 08:03:24 AM
Plus, driving on two wheels takes WAY too much concentration for the average person. [roll]
It's way too hard to sip your latte & check the Blackberry while playing dodge-car
My fiancée is looking into a bike for this verry reason ~
JM
Hmm hadn't even factored in the 'social status' factor of it. But hey, one of the biggest gas sipping bikes is the BMW 650 gs - So you can always say you've got a BWM and retain that marquee name plate status I'm cooler than you BS... ;D
Hhah, good point T - I can see it now "But Honey, look how much we can save on gas".
And yes... the concentration issues... TONs of people around here love to text while driving these days - someone else even spotted a cruiser rider talking on their phone (the actual hand set) one time - no joke... So there's the stupid, "It's might right to always blab on my phone" hurdle too.
Quote from: yuu on May 22, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
Hhah, good point T - I can see it now "But Honey, look how much we can save on gas".
Of course he will spending the savings on chrome, billet pieces, carbon fiber...the list goes on and on.
Quote from: Scooter Montgomery on May 22, 2008, 08:48:39 AM
Of course he will spending the savings on chrome, billet pieces, carbon fiber...the list goes on and on.
Shuush you! Don't give away those 'trade secrets'
But - that comment is more poignant that you might think. All those extra widgets would be bought (hopefully) with disposable income - since some level of income would not be pissed away on filling up the single digit mpg Caddy Le Bohhemeth. More disposable income isn't such a bad thing for anyone right?
I have a regular trusty old (2003) Honda Civic, and it gets about the same gas mileage as my Monster. It got better than my 749 ever did.
I couched my terms... and said "many" My 900 gets better mpg than my car - but it's not going to do better than a scooter or than BMW that can get over 50 mpg.
But also remember your civic is a lot more efficient than much of what's on the road right now. I'd also expect to see a shift in the auto market towards the smaller cars like the civic
Most definitely.
5 years ago bike parking was plentiful in downtown SF (at least the area I work in)
2 years ago, it was a bit scarce, but there were still slots to be found
Now if I don't get in before 10, I'm forced to park in the 'boondocks' slots about 5 blocks away from work.
Mind you, this is springtime & summer only. In winter there are always plenty of spots.
The disappointing part: "Demographics" wise it's mostly scooters.
Still, this is an urban center, that enjoys good weather. And when the alternatives are public transportation or horrible traffic and $30 parking rates it's hard not to see why folks are making the shift.
Here in Anchorage, I'm seeing more scooters than ever. Must be the price of gas. My wife and I are doing as much commuting as we can on our bikes. Makes our 15 min. commute a lot more fun. She has a DR 650 and I have a BMW F650. YUU you may be right about the status of the BMW.
My 1999 Funduro gets complements all the time. I don't get it. I picked up the beemer for around 3K and fixed it up from an abused state. I think of
it as a purely utilitarian adventure tourer, but some folks see that name on the tank and assume it is something special.
Quote from: T-byrd on May 22, 2008, 08:07:58 AM
I think this will give some guys a good argument to the wife to get a motorcycle. I know a couple of guys that have been wanting a bike but the wife wouldn't let them get one...until now.
T
dudes need to grow some stones! ;D
I've noticed a lot more scooters on the roads too. It started happening around 5 years ago or so long before gas was outrageously price fixed. I dig it- I even wave at the little buggers although it scares them sometimes, as though they're not sure it's safe to take one's hand from the bars. Here in the Seattle area we have a surprising number of full time 2 wheelers and I think the scooter-folk are perhaps even more prevalent in the rain than real cycles. I'm not a foul weather rider though. I used to be but I don't think it's safe here, for reasons I'm not proud of.
Around me, the answer is yes.
I've seen more and more scoots going by lately.
There is a car repair place which sells scooters and when I got my car inspected, I asked him if he's been selling a lot lately and he said he was selling 3-5 per month and now it's around 10. Some crap brand, Kymco or HiTon or some thing.
I would go for a Malaguti, but I am a snob. 8)
I totally think it will. Since i have bought my bike my moms two friends have both picked up scooters as a way to save gas after i told them my mpg. I spread the word on this everyday.
Im starting a whole movement at work with the gas savings. I had someone come up to me last week from the lab over to ask about fuel efficiency and how to get started riding a moto. Its completely feasible for the US to start heading this way. [moto] Also my boss is looking into them now as well as a coworker in my lab.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 22, 2008, 11:19:20 AM
Around me, the answer is yes.
Well you're a fellow CAM'er ducatizzzz so you're probably seeing the same trend I am.
This Chinese 50cc market exploded - a honda engine patent expired a couple years back and so the Chinese fired up the knock off honda power plant market.
I've even seen a place that does picture framing selling a 50cc scooter...
And for the name cache thing... I choose BMW as a prime example, since people who know 0 about bikes can still associate BWM with being a marquee brand. And since they want to be cool.. well a BWM is cool becuse it's a Beemer! Honda, Suzuki etc don't enter the high end car market so people in US place a lower value on machines with their name plate -even if it might be superior. If honda sold the 'Acura CBR1000RR' some sod might go and pay more for it than it's "inferior" honda cousin
- That being said I drive an acura, and it was kitted out more nicely than the accord of the same period. Just making an argument for the name cache....
And names like Ducati, MV Agusta etc or foreign to the US mass market so they carry 0 weight or might even be a detractor to some people (what they don't know, scares them)
Hmm, I wonder how Mercedes branded scoots would sell..
...Or HD branded scooters.
Since my wife started working at the ice cream factory 10 min. from my workplace, I've all but stopped commuting by bike. We ride together in the Jetta TDI. Bike and car get the same mileage, but inspite of deisel being a dollar more a gallon, it still saves us money for both of us travel for the price of one.
Now all with the moto ref gigs, all my bike miles are paid for by someone else.
I think we are a spoiled society that doesn't see 2 wheels as a mode of transport. We like our cars and I can see people going for more economical cars, but to 2 wheels is more of a jump. If people would be willing to jump to 2 wheels I wonder why they haven't before. Why wasn't it pitched as an eco-friendly way to get around rather than plugging the same size car but with an alternative fuel or alternative power source that inefficient?
I think it's great more people are getting scooters, I think it's a stepping stone for people to be more accepting of 2 wheels as a transport rather than entertainment or a hobby.
Oh folks in the US definetly see bikes as play things, and not the primary mode of transit like they do in Europe. It's probably part history for the car culture in the states that Europe didn't have in the 40s and 50s, and our larger roads of that era too. Where many Europeans could only get their hands on bikes (pedal) or motorized, we in the US had access to cars and a booming economy. Also, we had lots of space and big roads. They had tight cities and an highway infrastructure that had just had a lot of bombs dropped on it. That stuff and more makes for a very different perspective.
So here, cars are king. They keep you warm dry and lazy... and we know how lazy America has become... oh my I'm starting to rant
Quote from: Pakhan on May 22, 2008, 11:41:09 AM
I think it's great more people are getting scooters, I think it's a stepping stone for people to be more accepting of 2 wheels as a transport rather than entertainment or a hobby.
that's a good point. i forget the guys name, but it was an editorial in the WSJ talking about how bikes in the US are seen as a luxury item because most people simply don't take them seriously.
IF gas would ever drop to $2/gal again, you'd see people lining up for the Escalades in a minute and tons of those scoots and bikes on ebay.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 22, 2008, 12:02:14 PM
IF gas would ever drop to $2/gal again, you'd see people lining up for the Escalades in a minute and tons of those scoots and bikes on ebay.
Unfortunately I think your right :(
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 22, 2008, 12:02:14 PM
IF gas would ever drop to $2/gal again
I def dont see that happening anytime soon, long live the moto!
Quote from: Pakhan on May 22, 2008, 12:12:32 PM
Unfortunately I think your right :(
there was a story on the news last week about how gas in China is price controlled by the gubmint there at $2.90/gallon and Escalades are very popular.
they expect to sell as many Escalades in China as in the US within 3 years.
Meanwhile, they have car-free days in Beijing due to smog, and everyone blames the USA for rejecting Kyoto. USA's gas usage is stable, whereas China has increased petroleum consumption by 300% over the last 5 years and is expected to do the same in another 2-3 years.
What's wrong with this picture?
When I was in Bangalore last week, there was a lot of talk about how motorcycles and scooters were a big part of the congestion problem. They looked forward to more cars on the road so that it would be easier to "maintain lane discipline."
Nothing. No one cares about that picture. the focus is always on the US and forever on the US until we fall. We are looked upon as if we are the role model of the whole world.
Now one thing i hate is seeing people driving cars as a status symbol when they clearly cant afford it, or shouldn't put them selves in a position where more than 75% of there paycheck goes towards insurance, and car payments.
If your driving a brand new escalade and just filled up the tank, and you say "i cant go out today, im broke" you shouldnt be driving a car like that to begin with. Too many people like that in NY. Hell, i know a girl who will only date a guy with a car. how shallow is that? (some of you may not agree, but again, you dont know her the same way i do, so its objective).
I guess if were going to judge those europeans, how many of us actually use our motos as our primary means of transportation? admin, wanna make a poll?
Quote from: FatguyRacer on May 22, 2008, 11:41:00 AM
...Or HD branded scooters.
There's no way. Have you been to their website lately? There's some really ridiculous marketing going on over there. Adding a scooter to the lineup would upset many people buying into the 'badass' image, I'm sure.
To the OP I'm seeing the same phenomenon here in Charlotte. The number of bikes i see is the same but the scooter population has exploded. The past 2 years there were 2 seen regularly (older guys going to the store). Today as I rode to lunch I passed 6 - and I'm way out in the burbs (think Reston to DC as an example). Another interesting observation is that of the 10-12 different scoots I've seen all but 1 of the riders has been in full face helmet, jacket and gloves (the other didn't have a jacket). They've been much more geared up than half the bikers here.
Quote from: cantseejack on May 22, 2008, 12:53:20 PM
There's no way. Have you been to their website lately? There's some really ridiculous marketing going on over there. Adding a scooter to the lineup would upset many people buying into the 'badass' image, I'm sure.
They have a website? [cheeky]
(that's not badass)
Quote from: FatguyRacer on May 22, 2008, 01:05:16 PM
They have a website? [cheeky]
(that's not badass)
tell these guys that
http://www.hells-angels.com/
Quote from: ducati_tim on May 22, 2008, 12:48:00 PM
When I was in Bangalore last week, there was a lot of talk about how motorcycles and scooters were a big part of the congestion problem. They looked forward to more cars on the road so that it would be easier to "maintain lane discipline."
India or Maine?
There are just as many people looking at scooters as there are at Ducs at Ducati Seattle everytime I go in there.
We've only had one car since I moved up here from FL. I want to get an SUV too but since I'll be right across the street from my new job, I think we'll do fine another year with just the car and the Duc.
We did see a ton of scooters when we were in Austin.
If the s/o gets a job close to home too and gas continues to rise (and it will), I may be able to talk her into a Vespa!
Quote from: ducati_tim on May 22, 2008, 12:48:00 PM
When I was in Bangalore last week, there was a lot of talk about how motorcycles and scooters were a big part of the congestion problem. They looked forward to more cars on the road so that it would be easier to "maintain lane discipline."
Oddly enough, they're wrong about lane discipline. In Buenos Aires everyone uses the lane markers as a 'rough guideline' and traffic zips there because folks manage to squeeze 'extra' lanes out of their roads. And studies have shown that this sort of 'lane anarchy' actually speeds things up.
Of course it also helps that the cars are small and the drivers there are some of the most focused I've ever seen.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 22, 2008, 01:14:03 PM
India or Maine?
What's the difference? [cheeky]
(http://www.bangorrealestate.info/UserFiles/Bangor-Maine-Downtown.jpg)
(http://www.megacities.uni-koeln.de/documentation/bangalore/photo/bangalore_003.jpg)
Here (around) DC people can hardly manage to not bash into the people next to them when they have a standard lane all to themselves.. but it's because most have no focus - talking on the phone, reading, texting, trying to find their rug rats toy which is under the passenger seat... it's a wonder there aren't more wrecks here.
Lane anarchy can work as long as folks pay attention. Our problem is no attention..
Quote from: yuu on May 22, 2008, 01:49:28 PM
Lane anarchy can work as long as folks pay attention. Our problem is no attention..
change the law to ban insurance and lose your license on first offense for any reckless driving conviction.
people will drive a lot more careful.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on May 22, 2008, 03:33:04 PM
change the law to ban insurance and lose your license on first offense for any reckless driving conviction.
people will drive a lot more careful.
Sadly they wont. :(
They'll just drive the same, only without insurance. Then when you get into an accident with someone with no insurance, you'll be the one getting the bendover treatment.
Did a little random searchig this morning and came across
http://news.carjunky.com/motorcycles-a-fuel-efficient-alternative-cde041.shtml
IT's a little out of date, but it notes that 2 wheel sales have tripled in this decade - though I doubt a lot of that is attributable to the current rise in fuel prices as much as other factors in the market in those years.
A friend who works in moto sales said that the sales floor has been dead for a while now - not shocking with folks in economic 'hunker down' mode, and the view that 2 wheels = play thing.
But as the resident rider in my circle of friend I'm hearing more chatter about neighbors, co workers, etc looking into scoots for commuting. The ole take the SUV to work 10 miles away and spend $10 a day for the commute ain't looking so good to folks - especially vs a 80 mpg Vespa they can park on the sidewalk (50 cc scoots can do that here)