Thinking of having the works done. Ohlins is just out of my price range. Any S4 owners have any experience?
all the same whatever monster u go.
i have a race tech done.
if i knew the difference it made before i bought my bike, and someone said, hey you can have the bike for free, but your not allowed to upgrade the suspension. i would never buy the bike.
its that damn good. valves spring on S2R1k showa. im sure the S4 has the similar forks.
I had my forks redone with RaceTech valves and springs. I think the springs are incredibly important to get it set for your weight, but their valves aren't THAT much of an improvement over stock. (Don't get me wrong, its a big improvement, but it doesn't cure everything - not for the $).
You might also want to investigate companies like:
Traxxion Dynamics (I highly recommend, this is where I got my rear shock setup)
Dept. of Suspension (Great communication)
I had some pretty specific questions for the guys, but here's a general summary of what they had to tell me about the Showa forks that came on my bike (99 M900, three way adj. showa forks), and the pricing options out there,
Disclaimer- this info is a few years old, i'm sure it still applies though:
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The Race Tech kit is not a bad kit as long as you don't mind using very old technology. I try not to use them as much as possible. They do accomplish what your forks need though. You need springs and compression/rebound valves. The problem is that the Race Tech stuff has been outdated for a long time now.
The reason you need valves is that the forks you have are "one way" style damping. Showa did this for Ducati because Ducati was looking to get forks built for a price. One way valving downside is that instead of metering the fluid as it goes both directions through the valves. For example a two way system will allow the fluid to go both ways through the valve without interfering with the damping characteristics of the fork. The stock valving doesn't meeter the fluid going through in the opposite direction as much as it blasts wide open. You could think of it as a "blow off valve" and when it gets to a certain fork speed the opening of that valve can be very jarring and doesn't do much for the ride and control of the fork.
Ohlins has a UES kit which directly replaces the compression and rebound valves with a true "two way" system and have been updated recently and therefore move more fluid efficiently without cavitation, etc.
The best thing you can do for your forks is to go with the Ohlins 20mm UES kit and a set of springs. This operation can not be compared to the race tech stuff because they don't solve the same problems and it sounds like the price you have been quoted only takes into account the compression valve and not the rebound one.
Three or for years ago guys were setting lap records on UES equipped bikes. Since the Ohlins has released 25mm Cartridge kits and most of the racers go that way now. They cost a fortune ($1800) and are massive overkill for the street or track days.
All told I could get you into a UES kit installed with the correct shimming, oil levels and springs for $675. This would be the best fork you could put under your bike.
And don't get confused by the Ohlins R&T forks. They look cool, they even look like a race fork. But, they were never designed to be a race fork (hence the name Road and track). They are more gold than fast. If you are looking for a different colored fork I can have your stock ones anodized any color if you would like though for $120.
Similarly,
Traxxion has options based on different budgets as well:
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We have a few options for those forks.
First, a simple rebuild and respring would be $300 including labor, new springs matched to your weight and riding style, and new seals. Our rebuild would include complete disassembly, hand polishing the fork tubes (reduces stiction and removes burs that may lead to a seal leak), cleaning and inspection of all parts, checking tubes for straightness, install new seals and fresh oil, etc.
Our “budget†valving setup would include the above, plus new Axxion compression valves and a revalve (new shims) for the stock rebound valves.This would run around $636. This will give you a nice improvement over stock.
Our standard Valving setup would include the above, along with new Axxion rebound valves. This service would be $800.
Our Best setup would be our AK20 cartridge kit. This is a set of extremely high tolerance CNC machined cartridges, with the Axxion Valving already installed. It will give you a nice firm controlled feel, with excellent bump absorption. The AK20s are $999.95 and include springs matched to your weight and oil. They are designed to be a drop in kit if you can change fork seals, or we can install it for $150 (plus seals) including a full rebuild. One of the added benefits of the AK20 is that they are modular. When you sell your bike, you can easily remove the AK20s, reinstall your stock cartridges, and install the AK20 in your new bike, with the addition of just a few parts for the AK20.
Quote from: fouramdesigns on August 16, 2009, 09:20:59 AM
Thinking of having the works done. Ohlins is just out of my price range. Any S4 owners have any experience?
I've got RaceTech compression valves in my S4 forks, and they're definitely an improvement over the stock stuff.
I've done a number of forks with 'em for customers as well.
The OEM springs in S4 forks are .85 or so, OK for riders of ~170 lbs.
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The reason you need valves is that the forks you have are "one way" style damping. Showa did this for Ducati because Ducati was looking to get forks built for a price. One way valving downside is that instead of metering the fluid as it goes both directions through the valves. For example a two way system will allow the fluid to go both ways through the valve without interfering with the damping characteristics of the fork. The stock valving doesn't meeter the fluid going through in the opposite direction as much as it blasts wide open. You could think of it as a "blow off valve" and when it gets to a certain fork speed the opening of that valve can be very jarring and doesn't do much for the ride and control of the fork.
Not sure what's being said there... the compression and rebound valves are essentially 'one-way', in that the compression valve only controls compression damping, and bypasses on rebound, so that the rebound valve does the control.
Vice-versa for the rebound valving.
The OEM Showa valves, RaceTech, and AFAIK the Ohlins valves all work that way.
All I did on my '03 800 Dark was change the fork springs for Race Techs and swap the oil for 5W. Night and day difference. No more diving, faster action, not so harsh on sharp hits, better tracking in corners and over ruts, just better all around. I went with a stiff spring (.95) and I think it's a bit too stiff, I may drop to .90 but even if I don't it's still so much better than stock and for about $150 total in parts.
Unless you have Ohlins it really doesn't seem to take much to improve on the stock suspension.
Scott
Did you set up the preload? I think that's one of the most important things you can do.
Quote from: ato memphis on August 16, 2009, 11:29:40 AM
You might also want to investigate companies like:
Traxxion Dynamics (I highly recommend, this is where I got my rear shock setup)
Dept. of Suspension (Great communication)
I had some pretty specific questions for the guys, but here's a general summary of what they had to tell me about the Showa forks that came on my bike (99 M900, three way adj. showa forks), and the pricing options out there, Disclaimer- this info is a few years old, i'm sure it still applies though:
Any more info on these Dept. of Suspension folks. Not much info on their website, including contact info. Just replaced the RaceTeched forks on my '99 with SS forks and I was going to RaceTech them as well. This sounds like a better option.
I had just emailed them for their opinions on the matter. You might want to do the same:
departmentofsuspension@yahoo.com
info@traxxion.com
I emailed Jason at Dept of suspension a couple of months back. He was a real pleasure to work with and I would recommend him to anyone. I asked about available upgrades to the stock suspension for my 695. This was his answer:
There are three options as far as a good solution goes when it comes to improving those forks.
Stage one would be to do the down and dirty which is to replace the stupid progressive rate springs that you have now with something suited to your weight/riding style and run a higher viscosity fork fluid to deal with controlling the higher rate spring. I have done a lot of these this way but it is a low level improvement at best. It would be plenty good for just riding around town and commuting to work, etc. But any spirited riding would over tax the forks quickly. This would run about $240 parts and labor.
Stage two would be to go for the Matris fork cartridge kit. The kit is pretty cool and when installed gives you compression and rebound dampening. One leg would be compression, one leg would be rebound and the adjusters would be on the top of the forks. I have done a lot of these and they work pretty well. They are a nice solution for a bike that will be seeing some back road thrashing and some mid level track day riding. The only problem is that I don't work with Matris anymore because I was having way too many problems with getting shipments on time, getting what I ordered and getting replacement parts. After I let a few customers down because it took me too long to get stuff out of Matris I decided I would rather keep my customers happy and riding and stopped importing their stuff. It's a shame because they make a good product but their infrastructure is non existent. If you did order a Matris fork kit from someone else (I don't know if anyone is importing them right now) they retail for $1015 as of January. They may have gone up in price because of the Euro/Dollar issues. Labor for installation would be $75. I think it would be fair to say you would be looking at about $1100 to go the Matris route.
The third option is to get a used set of fully adjustable Monster forks and have them gone through for your application and needs. The advantage with this method is that the adjustable Monster forks are great forks. They are barely one step below a full race fork. Their only shortcomings are that they all come with horrible spring rates, which is obviously easy to remedy. And the valve system is a "one way" type setup that makes them a bit harsher at high shaft speeds (sharp edged bumps) than a superbike fork (748-999) or if they had a set of Ohlins 20mm UES valves installed. The best setup would be a set of fully adjustable Monster forks with the correct springs and a UES kit. A little bonus is that if you go that route when I have the forks apart I could have them anodized any color you want for $120. I have seen used Monster forks on eBay for as little as $250. So this option has sub options.
* Used set of adjustable Monster forks rebuilt and loaded with the correct springs $290*+ the cost of the forks.
* Used set of adjustable Monster forks rebuilt and loaded with the correct springs and a Ohlins 20mm UES kit. $535*+ the cost of the forks.
* Used set of adjustable Monster forks rebuilt and loaded with the correct springs and a Ohlins 20mm UES kit and anodized. $655*+ the cost of the forks.
In my opinion you will have the best quality fork if you go with one of the "used" fork routes. Every single part of the forks are better quality than the non adjustable units. Going with the Matris setup is like putting $2500 worth of wheels and tires on a $1500 car (we have all seen that). The used forks with a UES kit and springs will be incredible. They will be more fork than you could possibly want. And there is no reason why the total cost of the used forks and the work by me can't be the same or less than going the Matris route.
Thanks
Jason
Thanks guys for all the input, some greatb info, and Jason, I will be contacting you shortly.
I suggest shopping around and make sure you like what you are hearing, it is consistent across the board, and blah blah blah. If you are looking at the reputable companies, a lot of the info will be the same, which is what you can see above from Traxxion and D.O.S..
The general gist is that the 'externals' of the forks are fine, so fine that the only real modification one might want in addition to the services is an ano job, offered by D.O.S.. Yeah, the slick gold or black coatings on the lowers are cool, but really not necessary for non-race riders. Traxxion (and I believe D.O.S.) will check fork straightness, polish the surfaces of the slide area and make things work well. There are other vendors out there offering this and that, and if you choose to go with them, that's cool, but I suggest getting a lot of info from them to compare to what is posted here, and what you learn directly from Traxxion and D.O.S. yourself.
;) good luck! [moto]