I'm interested in getting one for light riding around the Big D. Just something to tool around on with the cool older vibe.
what do i need to know: models, good features, bad features, issues, etc.
Give me a crash course. Please.
How mechanically able are you? I have never owned one, but several friends have and they have had nothing but negative things to say about the reliability of them. Most have sold them and either gotten a new Bonneville or something else all together.
Fairly mechanically inclined. i thought it would be neat to have an older bike to tinker with. Not really sure about the various models. i see some are "OIF" which I take to mean oil-in-frame, and I'd like to know, as an example, if this is a good or bad thing - inherent problems and the like.
There's an old joke, one of my favorites, regarding British vehicles.
Do you know why the Brits can't build a computer?
'Cause they can't figure out a way for it to leak oil. ;D
Darkness, lots of darkness (or so I've heard).
oh, come now people. I have no plans of selling the Ducati, or spending any money that i would have spent on ducati, on a triumph. I just want an old bike, with the bonneville, bsa, norton style look to it.
Quote from: NorDog on August 26, 2009, 12:54:27 PM
Darkness, lots of darkness (or so I've heard).
emanating from the prince of darkness...
and no...
it's not ozzie. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on August 26, 2009, 12:56:58 PM
emanating from the prince of darkness...
and no...
it's not ozzie. ;D
I have a theory that Lucas was blind. [laugh]
sigh....
this is zero help. almost amusing, however. except i do want to know about old ass bikes, what to look for when purchasing and what to avoid.
Quote from: NorDog on August 26, 2009, 12:59:53 PM
I have a theory that Lucas was blind. [laugh]
he has been attributed as saying "just don't go out after dark". [laugh]
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:04:29 PM
sigh....
this is zero help. almost amusing, however. except i do want to know about old ass bikes, what to look for when purchasing and what to avoid.
We're trying to tell you ( in inimitable DMF fashion ) that an old Brit bike will leak oil and have a horrible electrical system.
What else would you like to know?
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:04:29 PM
sigh....
this is zero help. almost amusing, however. except i do want to know about old ass bikes, what to look for when purchasing and what to avoid.
No FHE, but there has got to be a forum out there that would be more helpful than this disgruntled group of folks.
Quote from: ducpainter on August 26, 2009, 01:07:44 PM
he has been attributed as saying "just don't go out after dark". [laugh]
We're trying to tell you ( in inimitable DMF fashion ) that an old Brit bike will leak oil and have a horrible electrical system.
What else would you like to know?
i know i know. what kinds of electrical problems could there be? there doesnt appear to be but a scant few electrical devices on the old bikes.
http://motormaniacal.com/triumph-motorcycles/ (http://motormaniacal.com/triumph-motorcycles/)
http://www.triumphrat.net/ (http://www.triumphrat.net/)
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:04:29 PM
sigh....
this is zero help. almost amusing, however. except i do want to know about old ass bikes, what to look for when purchasing and what to avoid.
Sorry my friend.
I really can't help you on that count other than to say that they are cool bikes and I want more than a few models (mostly from the 60's).
It is probably safe to say that if you find one you like and the price seems right, go for it. Only be prepared to do some wrenching, but imo if it's not your primary bike, that can be fun too.
Of course there are the usual things to check like wheel bearings, compression, ability to start, interior condition of the fuel tank, condition or rims and spokes, dings, dents, and integrity of the frame.
Hopefully others here will be of more help in pointing out specific pitfalls to avoid, but it would be helpful in that regard to mention a specific model and year.
Good luck! Keep us posted.
Quote from: kopfjager on August 26, 2009, 01:11:18 PM
http://motormaniacal.com/triumph-motorcycles/ (http://motormaniacal.com/triumph-motorcycles/)
Ah, very helpful.
i was attempting to avoid the full fledged triumphrat site, as it is a VS creation I believe, and I'm not going whole-hog after the brand, more in that it looked like a bit of fun to putter around on one.
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:11:12 PM
i know i know. what kinds of electrical problems could there be? there doesnt appear to be but a scant few electrical devices on the old bikes.
From what I understand, if it's electrical on an old Brit bike, it will have problems: i.e. everything.
ATO, go by Storm's Cycles in Grand Prairie (3000 E Jefferson St Grand Prairie, TX 75051). Last time I was there they had a dozen sum-odd BSA/Norton/Triumphs there. And they sell Urals
Quote from: kopfjager on August 26, 2009, 01:08:02 PM
No FHE, but there has got to be a forum out there that would be more helpful than this disgruntled group of folks.
I'll have you know that I am ENTIRELY gruntled!
if I were more handy, I'd love to have an old bonnie or a norton to tool around on [thumbsup]
and, like almost everyone else, I lack FHE :(
FWIW, I've really been a'wantin' a BSA Victor 441
Although I never owned one several friends had bonnevilles (also BSA lightnings) of the late 60's. They were good bikes but the newer designs of the Japanese bikes were coming into vogue. The parts were hard to get, but they really were a fairly stable platform. The original engine design was from the 50's if I remember correctly. The English bikes of the era (late 60's-early 70's) were an outmoded designed but most of the bugs were worked out. change the oil, recable once in a while, they ran for the few years we kept them around. A side note they were all tall bikes and one of the guys I rode with was maybe 5'2" he couldn't even tip toe and keep the bike vertical. Hilarious watching him ride around in traffic.
Just my opinion, if i were to looking for the nostolgia of a vintage English bike I would try a 650cc Triumph Thunderbird, the wild one's bike.
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:11:12 PM
i know i know. what kinds of electrical problems could there be? there doesnt appear to be but a scant few electrical devices on the old bikes.
The don't go out after dark comment should be a clue.
Even the scant electrical system was bogus. Lights that wouldn't work either because of vibration or switches that sucked, points that need cleaning and re-gapping almost weekly if ridden every day.
All that said they were fun. You just need to work on them constantly.
The modern Ducs, believe it or not, are far better.
i know i know, we are getting something for my wife to ride on, as she will be a beginner - so I thought I could look for something for me to tool around on next to her that wasn't a speedy bike, so I was still very much 'involved' during the ride.
my god, its the mythical bathtub i was told about once:
(http://www.classicmotorcycles.org.uk/bikemuseum/images/triumph/triumph_1961_6t_thunderbird_650cc.jpg)
Quote from: NorDog on August 26, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
I'll have you know that I am ENTIRELY gruntled!
Aaaaannnnnd here's your nerdy link of the day: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dis1.htm (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dis1.htm)
Quote from: NorDog on August 26, 2009, 01:16:54 PM
FWIW, I've really been a'wantin' a BSA Victor 441
A riding buddy had one of these that he flogged regularly. It was one of the worst riding bikes I ever rode. It almost hopped down the rode. It was a great dirt bike back when there weren't any real dirt bikes. We would offrode ( I had a 305 scrambler ) until one of us got hurt and then we would go home. I am now officially reliving my youth.... no more work will get done today
Quote from: ato memphis on August 26, 2009, 01:21:39 PM
i know i know, we are getting something for my wife to ride on, as she will be a beginner - so I thought I could look for something for me to tool around on next to her that wasn't a speedy bike, so I was still very much 'involved' during the ride.
my god, its the mythical bathtub i was told about once:
(http://www.classicmotorcycles.org.uk/bikemuseum/images/triumph/triumph_1961_6t_thunderbird_650cc.jpg)
Another consideration should be vibration.
The 60s/70s era Brit bikes rattled parts off down the road in the following order...
BSA
Triumph
Norton.
you seem to be speaking of a different vibration than viberider.
This is what you want. [evil]
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/chiflado/blacktrump2tq5.jpg)
Quote from: ducpainter on August 26, 2009, 01:18:27 PM
The don't go out after dark comment should be a clue.
Even the scant electrical system was bogus. Lights that wouldn't work either because of vibration or switches that sucked, points that need cleaning and re-gapping almost weekly if ridden every day.
All that said they were fun. You just need to work on them constantly.
The modern Ducs, believe it or not, are far better.
Get the t shirt too! :D
(https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3424/3860401790_a56e2739c0_o.jpg)
Quote from: ducpainter on August 26, 2009, 01:27:20 PM
Another consideration should be vibration.
The 60s/70s era Brit bikes rattled parts off down the road in the following order...
BSA
Triumph
Norton.
I don't remember anything falling off that was desperately needed and the vibration seemed to be plus.
Seriously, Most bikes of that era had solid mount engines that weren't balanced and vibrated a lot. If you are looking for retro looks and smooth ride go buy a brand new triumph bonneville.
Quote from: Major Slow on August 26, 2009, 01:33:38 PM
I don't remember anything falling off that was desperately needed and the vibration seemed to be plus.
Seriously, Most bikes of that era had solid mount engines that weren't balanced and vibrated a lot. If you are looking for retro looks and smooth ride go buy a brand new triumph bonneville.
I lost a tail light on an old BSA...along with big chunks of fender. ;D
The Nortons with the isolastic frame were much easier on things IMO.
When I was a kid, my best friends dad owned a BSA/Triumph/Suzuki shop that we hung around in on weekends. I remember one detail about the oil-in-frame. One owner's engine grenaded and it required the frame to be replaced - under warranty I think. There was no way to get all of the bits of metal out of it and I guess they were afraid some of the bits would find their way into the new engine. The good thing about the oil in the frame was the frame doubled as an oil cooler.
ok enough second- hand hyperbole....
heres some facts...
i currently own and have owned for almost ten years a 1969 triumph t120 r bonneville
and a 1971 triumph tr6c trophy (flattracker rat bike)
electrical systems of the period were certainly an issue, but its pretty simple to rectify that now...
headlight, taillight, coils, ignition; not much to it to simply rebuild the entire wiring harness with new/ modern wire....
new GE halogen headlight bulbs will fit right in the stock shells.
high output alternators are a plus , and readily available.
KEY is replacing the points ignition system with a boyer brandsen electronic system,
which is really a plug-and-play affair, slips right in place of the original points plate.
replacement/ aftermarket parts are pretty readily available as well, and new parts are still being manufatured,
pistons/ rings/ rebuild parts, fork seals, etc easy to come by.
top-end/ transmission seals are pretty good, but the clutch/ primary seal is GOING to leak,
dont let anybody tell you different...
no biggie, just put a pan under it, its marking it territory.... ;)
if you want to keep it original, the AMAL carbs can be bored and sleeved by Lund machine, have had excellent results from the new owner...
mikuni kits are available as well, but mine never ran well, you can have 'em cheap if youd like... [bang]
with a good carb setup, boyer ignition, and a fresh battery, these are one kick bikes.
simple and stone-age, aside from the cylinder bolts, you can do most of the entire bike with a half-inch/ 10mm wrench.
the 1968/ 1969 triumph boneville was the pinnacle of that particual design,
a unit-construction bike where the motor and tranny shaed a common casing, as opposed to a pre-unit bike with a separate transmission
engaged to the crank by a chain drive....
light (283 pounds US) and nimble, very stable and great handling for an antique,
theyre a blast to ride in any situation...
and INCREDIBLY comfortable riding position; upright, feet mildly forward, knees at 90 degrees, shoulders at comfortable spread...
im 6'4", 34" inseam and the bike is just right underneath me...
in decent tune theyll run an honest 100mph without complaint as long as you want to push them...
more than that , sure, but realistically and reliably thats a good number.
they ARE a parallel twin.
they DO vibrate.
parts fall off.
its a british thing.... [laugh]
ive arrived at dinner to discover a missing side cover...
thurs night ride arrived sans headlight-shell mounted ammeter,
riding w buddy one night left pipe hanger bolt went A.W.O.L.
(sitting in a parking lot wondering how to get home.....strip mall.....hmmmm a chinese restaraunt....."can i have one of those takeout boxes?"......wire handle
appropriated....voial....!!!!....on the road again....!!!)
its part of the character you accept when deciding to ride old british...
but mechanically;
built (or bought) correctly and not neglected, theyre pretty simple/ low maintenance bikes to enjoy....
put good new tires on them, keep the battery up, and enjoy....!!!
of course ive got ten years worth of tips/ opinions/ facts if you decide to take the plunge....
im certainly happy i did. [thumbsup]
(http://i35.tinypic.com/33u35hz.jpg)
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2vcdfra.jpg)
Quote from: lazarus7 on August 26, 2009, 02:43:28 PM
ok enough second- hand hyperbole....
heres some facts...
<snip>
excuse me?
Quote from: Major Slow on August 26, 2009, 01:24:38 PM
A riding buddy had one of these that he flogged regularly. It was one of the worst riding bikes I ever rode. It almost hopped down the rode. It was a great dirt bike back when there weren't any real dirt bikes.
Incredibly, I would expect nothing less of my future Victor 441! [laugh]
I can give you some FHE. I have a 1975 Triumph Trident 750 that I have owned since new. It's been a love/hate affair since the beginning. The old Jaguar guys have a bumper sticker that reads "... but when it runs!" which means that it's constant fiddling with something, but when you get it going, it's great. Mine has been a lot of trouble, but when it is running it's a blast. Remember, these are '70's bikes built using '50's technology, so they aren't anywhere near as capable as the most basic Monster. But if you are willing to put in the love, they are fun. Stay away from the Triples! A Bonneville is much simpler and parts are easier to find. You'll need manuals, and work space, and tools, and oh yeah- time. Lots of time...
Sounds good. I'm not looking for anything fast by any measure. I'm looking for something that will keep me attentive and involved on rides with my wife (who is soon to be new to riding). I have realized recently that even when I feel like I'm going slow, and I'm getting bored, I still am going faster than a brand new rider would be comfortable riding. I've just been on this Monster which is set up for quick steering on curvy roads for so long, that I've grown accustomed to things at a higher rate of speed.
So if a can get something that will be entertaining at much lower speeds, I won't be compelled to juice it and leave the ol' lady behind. Going fast is fun, but I'm now aware that I need to learn how to still have fun, while going slow so riding isn't scary for her.
+1 On most of what Lazarus7 says so I'll try not to repeat it. I've had a '66 T120TT for decades. Used to be my daily rider and I commuted about 35 miles each way every day. Years ago I rode it across the USA without any problems. Riding one is fun since almost everywhere you stop, someone will start a conversation how they used to race one. Part of the reason I like it is that it's pure function, I don't think there's a single part on mine that you can remove and still have a functional bike.
Lots of fun to ride, you don't need to go fast to have fun. They do vibrate more than most newer bikes, but if you're single, girls love it [evil] Even if you're not single girls still love it.
The oil in frame models aren't as cool or as valuable as the older ones.
Brakes aren't what we're used to, but they do work, but you won't be doing stoppies. Problems with Lucas are mainly in switches and wiring connections. Lucas has some issues but they are much more solvable than Duc immobilizer or dash problems. Not too hard to replace faulty parts with better ones. I did have to spend some time sorting it out when I first got it, but once I got it right it's been reliable.
I guess the bottom line is that I have 5 or 6 bikes and if I had to keep only one...it probably would be the Triumph. But then I'd really have to think about that :)
Edit: PM me if you find a possible bike or have any specific questions. I'd venture that Lazarus7 will say the same.
Here are some old Brit bikes that have my eye. Not Triumphs, but still cool...
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Favorite%20Moto%20Pix/146201.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Favorite%20Moto%20Pix/1938_Brough_Superior.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Favorite%20Moto%20Pix/e805_3.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Favorite%20Moto%20Pix/1928BroughSuperior680OHV.jpg)
Quote from: NorDog on August 26, 2009, 12:59:53 PM
I have a theory that Lucas was blind. [laugh]
And a pyromaniac. [laugh]
Not sure what riding around Bid D is, but this is what we used to call Big D.
http://www.bigdcycle.com/PHOTO%20GALLERY.html (http://www.bigdcycle.com/PHOTO%20GALLERY.html)
http://www.bigdcycle.com/HISTORY.html (http://www.bigdcycle.com/HISTORY.html)
LA
I'm planning on checking that shop out in the next week or so and see what kind of toys they have, and how personable the staff is.
Quote from: NorDog on August 27, 2009, 08:20:35 AM
Here are some old Brit bikes that have my eye. Not Triumphs, but still cool...
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Favorite%20Moto%20Pix/e805_3.jpg)
First bike I ever crashed. ;D
...and it wasn't mine. [laugh]
Quote from: ducpainter on August 27, 2009, 12:54:06 PM
First bike I ever crashed. ;D
...and it wasn't mine. [laugh]
D'Oh!
Well, if you gotta crash, you might as well crash someone else's bike! [moto]
Quote from: NorDog on August 27, 2009, 01:11:55 PM
D'Oh!
Well, if you gotta crash, you might as well crash someone else's bike! [moto]
I crash my monster regularly. ;)
You might know this guy Stuart Rust. One of the more knowledgeable guys when it comes to old Triumphs. Give him a call. Or check out his website.
http://rustrestoreonline.com/ (http://rustrestoreonline.com/)
I do! I hang out with Stuart quite a bit, and am headed over there tomorrow. He quite enjoys playin' on my Monster on occasion. I keep trying to add fancy nonsense to it, break something, and have him show me the error of my ways.
I'm going to pick his brain until he kicks me out likely, but I wanted to make sure I had a fair set of questions to start with first.
you don't need to buy a 70s Triumph. Some of the bikes they make today look almost exactly the way they've always looked. So buy yourself a 2009 Bonneville and tell everyone it's a 1970. Most people won't know the difference.
I have owned quite a few British bikes singles and twins (one triple) unit and pre unit triumphs. My last two were1978 T140v 750cc oil in frame. I rode mine to work this morning. All the bulbs points and other lectrics etc are original and working. Not as slick as a new bike. disc brakes use the same rotor front and rear and stop you in about a week when wet. Easy to work on, deglazed this clutch this weekend. Mine is almost completely original, I was going to make a cafe' racer from it but its too original so it lives on with the patina of age. Starts first kick. I preferred the handling of the OIF over some other Triumphs Ive owned. I am not sure how much longer I will keep this one (six years now) if it stays I will probably install a hydraulic clutch, for those out there that complain about heavy clutches on their Monsters Try a 30 year old Triumph. I didn't mention how cheap these are to run, parts are available at good prices my last set of brake pads were $15, not too expensive to buy either. Hope this helps. [moto]
I've heard the #1 modification is to get rid of the points ignition with the upgrade and it apparently is a direct swap.
Quote from: ato memphis on September 03, 2009, 05:29:11 AM
I've heard the #1 modification is to get rid of the points ignition with the upgrade and it apparently is a direct swap.
There used to be two types, Lucas Rita and Boyer Bransden (sp?). The Boyer is better, it's what I use and I'm not sure if Lucas still makes theirs. You have to find a spot to mount the electronic control box but it's only about the size of a cigarette pack and the the pickup coils mount inside the timing cover where the points used to go. It is pretty much a direct swap. The other upgrade to go along with the ignition module is a set of Dyna coils. Those two mods made a huge difference; ran better, idled better and started better.
(http://i29.tinypic.com/95tvz5.jpg)
love triumphs, love nortons,
but my first old horse might have to be
(http://dlrides.smugmug.com/photos/107464598_wMBZa-M.jpg)
mine would be a Vincent, however, I cannot seem to find one for a reasonable sum of money to tinker with.
Had a couple more unsolicited opinions:
I've run the Amal carbs and never had a real problem and never changed them for Mikuni's like many do, or did. Keeping them sync'd was sometimes a chore and the slides would occasionally get sticky but not enough of a problem to inspire action. Maybe the Mikuni's will get a little more HP, but what's the point. And, I kind of like the ritual of pressing the "tickler" button.
The single carb versions don't seem to be as desirable, but...they are only a few mph faster at the top end and have measurably more low end torque, which you'll be using a lot more than the top end. All else being equal I wouldn't pass up a single carb'd Triumph for simplicity's sake alone. I even seriously considered converting my Bonneville to a single carb.
The older models didn't come with an oil filter. Not sure when the filters were first installed, maybe with the OIF bikes. I was aghast at not having an oil filter and installed one and promptly ran into oil feed issues, since the pumps were not designed for the additional filter backpressure. So, I took the filter off and I really never had any problems. Change the oil regularly. Sure, you will get more wear than if there was a filter, but it's not likely you'll be riding it a lot of miles anyway. And the motor will still last a long time even without a filter. The guy Rust, who I don't know, may have worthwhile input on filters.
The brakes aren't good by modern standards, but they aren't all that bad. Properly adjusted, and assuming you won't be trying to run canyons at speed, they're adequate. Just ride it with the respect due to a 40 year old machine.
I think if you want to bad enough you can install an o-ring chain but you have to do some grinding on the cases to allow for the extra chain width. I chickened out and still use a conventional chain.
The crankshaft has an oil passage that also acts as a centrifuge, collecting sludge. Given enough miles, the sludge buildup will block oil flow to the rod bearings. If you get a bike with an unknown history, it's a very good idea to go through the motor. Personally I found the motor to be very interesting to work on.
The lighting definitely needs upgrading, if it's not already upgraded. As I recall, almost all Britbikes of the era used physically interchangeable alternators and higher output alternators from Nortons were a direct replacement. Lighting switches need to be upgraded also. The brake light on mine is still a POS and I could probably make a better one from a clothespin.
It took me awhile to get it the way I wanted it, but once it was there I rode it regularly for years without a problem.
a great resource for owners and riders of old brit bikes is the Brit-Iron mailing list, which has the following home page: http://www.brit-iron.org/ (http://www.brit-iron.org/) I was a member there for several years and met many great people, learned a lot and was able to contribute some as well. At the time I had a 1968 Norton Commando that I resurrected from scratch. I put over 10,000 miles on that bike and had a lot of fun with it. BTW, I only had a couple of parts fall off in that time and it only stranded me once, due to a malfunctioning brake switch. It was a very nice handling bike, but starting it took a toll on my knees so I finally sold it to a friend. BTW, IMO the commandos are a lot more desirable machine than the triumphs and are far more comfortable to ride due to the rubber mounted motor.
QuoteBTW, IMO the commandos are a lot more desirable machine than the triumphs and are far more comfortable to ride due to the rubber mounted motor.
I have to agree with you there, and I used to covet owning a Norton, not to replace the Triumph but in addition to it. But Norton's aren't as readily available and prices are higher.
Quote from: ato memphis on September 03, 2009, 05:29:11 AM
I've heard the #1 modification is to get rid of the points ignition with the upgrade and it apparently is a direct swap.
I put a Boyer ignation on my 75 850 MK III Norton, a new set of trans bushings and then put 80,000 mi. on it. If the Boyer is still avaliable, I'd do it first. The bike still runs great.
Really, I've always held the Nortons a step higher than the Triumphs. Why anybody would put a Triumph engine in a Norton frame is beyond me.
I've never seen a Triumph twin go really fast, but I have seen a well preped 750 Norton lap Charlotte Motor Speedway at over 140 MPH (in 1975) pulling two stroke triple Kaws. and 900 Z1's etc. and Green frame 750 Ducatis.
Now that 1000 cc Triumph triple that Big "D" used to race was another story. That was a stout muther******.
LA
Quote from: Raziel on September 03, 2009, 07:50:20 AM
(http://i29.tinypic.com/95tvz5.jpg)
I hate it when the smoke gets out. [laugh]