whats the difference? I was told v heads are better for some reason.
http://www.bikeboy.org/900equal.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/900equal.html)
As the link indicates, the V-series heads have larger valves, designed for the 900 motor.
The W-series heads has smaller valves and is for the 750, but was put on the 900 motor. Go figure.
That's about the most general, least detailed explanation out there.
Don't forget the cams.
W heads have 750 valves & cams
V heads have 900 valves & cams
750 cams are pretty damn tame on a 750 and even worse on a 900
What is difference V1 vs V2 head?
isn't the 696 a new head design? or is it a new version of the W head?
The V vs. W heads applies to the 750/900 Monsters. I believe the difference in V1/V2 or V2/V3 is just which run they did. Its either that, or the designation between horizontal and vertical. I can't recall, but I remember there being a similar number designation on the W-series.
ok so V heads on a 750 should be an agressive cam with big valves... would it clear the piston though?
I don't think there were any v-series heads on a 750. As I understand it, 750's got W heads. 900SS/M owners got V series heads, unless you were unlucky, then you received W series heads.
And the cams on the V series aren't really all that aggressive, they are just better than on the W series. The ST2 cams pack even more 'wallop'.
ok i just read an article on that site about the 900 cams on the 750. alot of work to make it work. HC pistons with deep cuts. timing changes and larger valves would be needed to see some seriousl changes.
900 heads are not interchangable with 750 heads.
900 carburated cams aren't HOT but certainly better than 750 cams.
A step up from 900 carbed cams are 900i.e. cams and after that are ST2 cams (there are also aftermarket cams but this is what's OEM available for the 900 motors).
900 cams can be made to work on a 750.
None of this thread has anything to do with any other motors than the 900 and the 750 (and only with regards to the 750 for reference).
The 696 heads are a completely new design based on the DS1000/1100 heads.
The number after the W or V designation does indicate Horizontal or Vertical.
750's only had W 'spec' heads but had a different letter stamped into them (IIRC).
the W head is a basic 2v casting machined to take 750 size valves with 900 cylinder stud spacing and 900 cylinder sized recess. the V head is the same basic head except it has larger valves and a slightly different chamber to fit them into - it's more oval to take the larger valves, whereas the W chamber is more round. they're both the same size in cc terms as the pistons are the same and they need to be to keep the comp the same.
camshafts can be swapped, as all that is the same. i have some dp oversize valves for W head motors that are 2.5mm longer than std 750 valves and 1.5mm longer than 900 V head valves - all between the collett groove and tip. I have them in my 750 heads with 900 cams and they sit fairly well from memory for the 900 cams. They're too long for 750 cams almost - they have opening shims under 2mm. maybe they're meant to work with the dp cams that are the same as the vee two 210. i also have dp exhaust valves for the same application and they're identical to 900 valves and the same dimensions as 750 ex valves apart from head size.
it's not a 750 head, it's a small valve 900 head. they were originally fitted to cagiva elefants, then someone decided to fit them onto monsters as well. the 750 cams are kind of crap, which is a pity. i have a few sets.
Yeah, the longer valves, I think are for the 210 / DP cams with the torque grind. VeeTwo sells them as the V2-13-201 valves, longer for the cam profile so they'll fully seat and open as intended. So I read. FHE is soon to come I hope.
So ST2 cams are a direct bolt in mod? Is it a very mild performance mod?
I believe so. Chris at CA Cycleworks would be able to vouch, as its part of his super-badass 102hp 2V kit: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads.html (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads.html)
(http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads_kit.jpg)
one day.....[wishful thinking]
Quote from: ato memphis on September 09, 2009, 04:44:05 AM
I believe so. Chris at CA Cycleworks would be able to vouch, as its part of his super-badass 102hp 2V kit: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads.html (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads.html)
(http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/heads/heads_kit.jpg)
one day.....[wishful thinking]
I wanted that setup
soooo bad for my '94. But it was not to be, since in the end it would have cost twice what the bike was worth (and I'm a tightwad).
I'm hoping to one day invest in an older SuperSport to throw a silly amount of money at. BST wheels, crazy 2V motor, etc.
Quote from: ato memphis on September 09, 2009, 02:56:37 PM
I'm hoping to one day invest in an older SuperSport to throw a silly amount of money at. BST wheels, crazy 2V motor, etc.
well the Kamna motor at 118hp is officially THE crazy 2V motor.
Indeed. The Kaemna makes 118 over 1078cc (109.462 hp/L), the CA-Cycleworks uses a 966 BCM kit and produces 102 (105.59 hp/L).
If I had a million bucks....
Quote from: Speedbag on September 09, 2009, 02:33:49 PM
I wanted that setup soooo bad for my '94. But it was not to be, since in the end it would have cost twice what the bike was worth (and I'm a tightwad).
Hey !!!!
that's my bike !!!!
I was one of the first customers Chris had at his new shop ;D
I still need to get some light weight wheels
and then Carbon rotors
and then......... [roll] [roll]
Quote from: mizike77 on September 09, 2009, 03:54:57 AM
So ST2 cams are a direct bolt in mod? Is it a very mild performance mod?
Hope so, but that may only be parts of the problem -- quoted from bikeboy -- "The not so good carb engine came in 900 Monster from engine number 037728 and the Cagiva Elefant series. The differences are camshafts and valves. These lower spec engines have 750 cams and valves. The valves are a couple of mm smaller. The cams are a little wacky, being about the same duration, but lower lift than the good 900 cams"
More -- " So there you have it. If you have a late model 900 Monster, the first mod to make is getting rid of the standard cams and maybe the valves. This puts you behind the eight ball from the start unfortunately."
mmmm I Need to do some head/cam work??
My 97 has the W heads :-[ It is my understanding that V heads are a quick swap with only some jetting to muck with. Is this true? In regards to the $$:HP ratio, is it worth it? In that same note, it is also my understanding that a set of 900ss heads from the same vintage should be V heads. Correct?
I have been considering a V head + 944 upgrade for the next off season but I also am wondering if it would be more feasible to just source a used 900ss motor and refresh it for a swap out.
Has anyone done either of these? Would you do it again?
if you are looking at doing some engine swapping, start looking for a 1000DS motor if you can. The M1000 was also a DSS and should go right in.
The M1000 engine is a good suggestion. I never see these listed for sale though. Of course the SS1000 and the Sport Classics have the DS1000 engine which could be used for a swap into the Monster frame. The DS1000 from the Mulitstradas won't work because the swingarm mounts differently
Well, it might be made to work. The crankcases themselves are all nearly identical.
Quote from: ato memphis on February 03, 2010, 09:42:09 AM
Well, it might be made to work. The crankcases themselves are all nearly identical.
Perhaps a DS1000 or DS1100 from a Multistrada could be made to work in a Monster frame, but the Monster, SuperSport, SportTouring and SportClassic bikes have the swingarm bearings in the engine cases. SuperBike, Multistrada, HyperMotard bikes have the bearings in the swingarm. This means it wouldn't be a simple motor swap to take an engine from a Mulitistrada and put it into a Monster. (Source: Duck-Stew, http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34283.msg597196#msg597196 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34283.msg597196#msg597196))
Maybe the swap wouldn't be as difficult if a Multistrada engine and corresponding swingarm were used in the Monster frame. However, then you would have to worry about how the shock would work. Any way you do it, it's not going to be a simple bolt in job.
I swapped the W heads for some SSie heads and cams. Easy to do if you can find them. Definitely more HP at a higher rpm, but not dramatically so. Low end grunt is about the same (around town riding). But I was already running FCR's and Dyna coils before the swap.
The FCR's and a light flywheel produced the most dramatic improvements in performance, even with the W heads. Had no issues keeping up with bikes that had the proper V heads.
Quote from: Frank C on February 04, 2010, 05:51:10 AM
The FCR's and a light flywheel produced the most dramatic improvements in performance, even with the W heads. Had no issues keeping up with bikes that had the proper V heads.
+1 +1 +1
That's what I did to my W head 98 Monster. While it is true that the V heads breathe better and the engine makes a couple or 3 hp more power there is not a huge difference in the way the engines run. People tend to act & believe that there is a night and day difference between the two engines when in actual fact there is only a barely perceptible change. Don't feel as though you're a leper if you have a W head bike. Now if you want to spend all the $$$ to have a bigger bore and reworked heads like the CA Cycleworks project then by all means have at it. That's much more noticeable than just switching from a W to V. Not that I wouldn't have done it if I found the heads and had the chance but it wasn't a project that ate at me.
if you ARE looking for V heads, browse Gotham Cycles and the like.
Quote from: ato memphis on February 03, 2010, 03:21:06 AM
if you are looking at doing some engine swapping, start looking for a 1000DS motor if you can. The M1000 was also a DSS and should go right in.
That's what I tell people inquiring about the testarosso head work. Why spend $7k to get to 100hp when a stock 1000 engine with FCRs makes that?
Quote from: Travman on February 03, 2010, 09:40:31 AM
The M1000 engine is a good suggestion. I never see these listed for sale though. Of course the SS1000 and the Sport Classics have the DS1000 engine which could be used for a swap into the Monster frame. The DS1000 from the Mulitstradas won't work because the swingarm mounts differently
I've got one for sale. Had it for years. Of course, I want $2k for it... and since everyone wants to pay 900ss or 748 prices, they don't want it. So, it will either sell to someone. Or someday, I'll put it in something and add FCRs to it.
;D
Chris, is there an advantage to using the FCR's compared to using the stock fuel injection & Power Commander? When you say a stock 1000 engine with FCRs makes 100hp that is pretty impressive. Is there any disadvantages to using FCRs compared to using the stock fuel injection & PCIII?
I just read your Keihin FCR FAQ page (http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/fcr_faq.html (http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/fcr_faq.html)). They sound like an awesome upgrade for the 900 2V Ducatis. Do you think the 41mm FCRs would work on a DS1000 bored out to 1123cc's?
I can't think of any real disadvantages FCrs have compared to efi.
Carb advantages / efi disadvantages:
- FCRs easy to tune and easily adjustable
- carbs are more natural feeling, not detached like efi
- cannot be immobilized (when using aftermarket ignition)
- strong chance of better mpg under "normal" riding
One of the kits we sold was to someone who is successfully racing their sport classic. He had done EVERYthing that a good Ducati dealer would sell him: cams, porting, big bore, rods, shaved crank. All that. And he loved them! He said he got something insane like 115 "real" hp on a superflow dyno, which is approaching 130hp on a dynojet dyno.
I just like that there's a good alternative on the market with the accepted norm. Works for all kinds of folks... people looking for power and also folks who are immobilized.
I should talk sudco into making a proper kit for the ducati 1000s........
You mentioned talking with Sudco about making a proper kit for the 1000DS. Is there anything wrong with using the 41mm kit for my bike or does it just take a little more to get it adjusted right?
Quote from: Travman on February 05, 2010, 05:20:18 AM
You mentioned talking with Sudco about making a proper kit for the 1000DS. Is there anything wrong with using the 41mm kit for my bike or does it just take a little more to get it adjusted right?
Right now, there isn't a "kit" so it costs maybe $125~200 more than it could. Plus, if we can get a good baseline, all the better. To get the 1000 setup means buying the split singles that would be for a 900, buying air box adapters, buying new spigots, pod filters, and some jetting. At the least, they would include the air box adapters and just ship it with the proper spigots.
:) Chris
Dammit, man, now you've got "my friend" thinking.
So... FCR's handle the fueling. What all would "my friend" need to do to get his otherwise stock DS1000 engine to run carby?
Fuel... handled.
Ignition? ECU? Gauges? Is this viable for a street bike?
I'm... er, my friend, is really intrigued.
**bookmark**
Like I said, you never see a DS1000 engine pop up for sale...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-MONSTER-S2R-1000-ENGINE-MOTOR-DUAL-SPARK-DS-1000_W0QQitemZ380203372313QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=%257B%2522Page%2522%253A%2522%252FMotorcycle-Parts-%252F10063%252Fi.html%253FMake%253DDucati%2526_trkparms%253D65%2525253A12%2525257C39%2525253A3%2525257C72%2525253A2648%2526_nkw%253Dengine%2526_cas%253DPart%25252520Type%2526_dmpt%253DMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories%2526_trksid%253Dp4506.c0.m245%2526_pgn%253D3%2526hash%253Ditem5885e30f19%2522%257D (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-MONSTER-S2R-1000-ENGINE-MOTOR-DUAL-SPARK-DS-1000_W0QQitemZ380203372313QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=%257B%2522Page%2522%253A%2522%252FMotorcycle-Parts-%252F10063%252Fi.html%253FMake%253DDucati%2526_trkparms%253D65%2525253A12%2525257C39%2525253A3%2525257C72%2525253A2648%2526_nkw%253Dengine%2526_cas%253DPart%25252520Type%2526_dmpt%253DMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories%2526_trksid%253Dp4506.c0.m245%2526_pgn%253D3%2526hash%253Ditem5885e30f19%2522%257D)
Ah bummer, too, they totally stripped that engine. :P The pick-up coil might cost ya. Last time I went to buy one, I was told they can be as much as $500. :o Clutch? Eh, no worries, those aren't so rare.