1999 750
FCR's
etc.
I tried to start her at lunch yesterday (haven't ridden her for a few weeks) and couldn't get it to turn over. It did a few times, but then died, which is standard since there is no choke. Towards the end, starter started making weird noises and eventually the battery couldn't kick it over anymore. Tender back on.
Come home from work, turn on (lights are bright and working)
hit the starter button.
Nothing. Just like pressing it with the bike off. Doesn't make any noise what so ever.
Starter relay?
Starter?
Note: I am not very mechanical outside of changing oil and basic maintenance. I am a finance dork.
Test battery. If your battery has dead cels, it could be weak and that combined with not starting up the bike for a while... you need a load tester. Harbor Freight has them for 100a batteries for around $15. I have a smaller one 50A which is fine for a bike battery, i think i paid $10
if battery is fine, then take a spare battery or one of those jump start setups and put the clips on the external connector for the starter. there is a large wire running to the starter, that's the primary wire. remove it (disconnect battery first). put the neg on the frame and, based on your courage, TOUCH the pos alligator to the starter for a second. you just want to see if the starter turns when you touch it.
if starter turns when you put a battery direct, then look at the starter relay.
otherwise, just mail me the title and i'll send a guy by with a truck.
Can I use the battery off my S4r to do this testing?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 11, 2009, 06:03:34 AM
Can I use the battery off my S4r to do this testing?
which testing, the starter?
yeah, just use a motorcycle jumper cable or any small cable with small alligator clips.. need about 14 ga or bigger.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 06:15:42 AM
which testing, the starter?
yeah, just use a motorcycle jumper cable or any small cable with small alligator clips.. need about 14 ga or bigger.
Yes, to test the starter.
I actually do have a set of those.
I think I'll try this method first as the harbor freight is a pretty good distance from here. Plus, I'll end up buying more shit than I need.
disconnect the battery on the bike
you should disconnect the primary cable too so you don't short the relay. it is nutted on with a rubber boot covering it.
don't get any breast milk on you.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 06:29:10 AM
disconnect the battery on the bike
you should disconnect the primary cable too so you don't short the relay. it is nutted on with a rubber boot covering it.
don't get any breast milk on you.
10-4
1. Disconnect battery from M750
2. Disconnect wire from said battery to starter
3. disconnect S4r battery
4. run cables from S4r battery to starter
5. Ground negative to frame
6. touch positive terminal to starter connection
7. watch out for boobie milk
Update:
disconnected both batteries and removed the boot and bolt from the starter.
Hooked up cables to the S4r battery.
hit the other 2 together to make sure I had spark. Perfect.
Grounded black to frame.
Hooked hot to the starter.
Notta.
It didn't do shit.
bad starter?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 11, 2009, 09:31:01 AM
Update:
disconnected both batteries and removed the boot and bolt from the starter.
Hooked up cables to the S4r battery.
hit the other 2 together to make sure I had spark. Perfect.
Grounded black to frame.
Hooked hot to the starter.
Notta.
It didn't do shit.
bad starter?
i would try another ground to be sure, but sounds like your starter is fried.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 10:22:07 AM
i would try another ground to be sure, but sounds like your starter is fried.
I had it clamped onto the trellis.
Not sure I could find a better ground...........
Will a starter from a 748 work?
Seems like they are standard across the board, much like the oil filters.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 11, 2009, 10:23:48 AM
I had it clamped onto the trellis.
Not sure I could find a better ground...........
Will a starter from a 748 work?
Seems like they are standard across the board, much like the oil filters.
sometimes you won't get a ground and best to double check.
i believe the sbk starters are the same, but i don't know for sure, i only have 2v engines lying around.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 10:26:35 AM
sometimes you won't get a ground and best to double check.
i believe the sbk starters are the same, but i don't know for sure, i only have 2v engines lying around.
I'll give it a shot.
You got a spare one sitting around?
I found one on fleabay for a 04 748.
They look the same.
Put your ground on the starter housing or the engine. If still nothing, there was an end cap on the earlier ones, if yours has this (the one on EBay doesn't appear to) remove it and check the brushes and internal wires.
Be VERY careful with the starter hot lead stud. There is a fairly fragile wire attached on the inside. If the stud turns it could be broken.
Quote from: 64duc on September 11, 2009, 11:57:56 AM
Put your ground on the starter housing or the engine. If still nothing, there was an end cap on the earlier ones, the one on EBay doesn't appear to, if yours has this remove it and check the brushes and internal wires.
Be VERY careful with the starter hot lead stud. There is a fairly fragile wire attached on the inside. If the stud turns it could be broken.
So will that one on Fleabay not work or is it just a new model?
Thanks for the tip on the study, I'll be careful with it.
I personally think it just took a shit. I was cranking on it pretty hard yesterday and it started making an odd noise.
I'm not familiar with later models, so can't answer that one. I'm just trying to help cover the bases before you have to remove the starter. It does not come off from the outside you know.
Quote from: 64duc on September 11, 2009, 12:47:17 PM
I'm not familiar with later models, so can't answer that one. I'm just trying to help cover the bases before you have to remove the starter. It does not come off from the outside you know.
How do you remove this cap?
I have been PMing with Duck-Stew and he gave me the general gist of changing it.
The alternator cover needs to come off, drain oil, etc.
Looks like I might have one of the local club guys help me.
This is what I PM'd Cyrus w/regard to removing & replacing the starter:
Since you plan on tackling it yourself, here's some pointers/helpers
There's a bolt under the clutch slave that holds down the alternator cover so remove the clutch slave first.
Use a zip-tie to retain the clutch slave piston (providing you haven't upgraded from the stock slave cylinder that is). If you have upgraded, then don't bother this.
Get a cover puller or borrow one. It's hard to get them off otherwise. REALLY hard (while not damaging the cover itself).
Get a piece of cardboard beforehand and mark out a sharpie drawing of the cover's shape punching holes in where there are bolts. Use this to retain the bolts as there are different lengths in different positions.
You will need to drain the oil.
You will need to rotate the side-stand bracket out of the way so the bike will have to be on a rear-stand for this. Loosen both bolts for the side-stand/foot rest, and then remove the front one to rotate it out of the way.
Ignition pick-up wires exit the case so no need to mess with those, but your 3-wire connection for the alternator will have to be snaked out of the factory wiring before you get the cover in your hand or you get to hold it up with one hand while trying to find the side-cutters and trying to cut zip-ties.
There are three bolts that hold down the starter to the case. Only 1 is visible from the outside of the motor. The other two are below the alternator cover. One is easily accessable, the other requires rotating a gear to line the hole in the gear up with the bolt so that the bolt can be removed through the hole in the gear.
No gasket (but you could put one on from CA-Cycleworks) for the side cover. Getting a new gasket for the starter to the engine case ain't a bad idea but I've been known to just put a thin coat of grey silicone sealant on the old one and re-use it. I use the same grey silicone for the alternator cover to the case.
Don't skimp on scraping the silicone off and yes.....it's a beyotch.
The above applies to his 1999 M750. Other models are *slightly* different from this.
I see two bolts on the oil window side of the starter.
Are those the two you have to remove to get inside the starter?
If so, I have to drain the oil, as the oil cooler lines are in the way.
but again.......if I have to change the whole thing, then I have to drain the oil anyway!
I can't get to the other bolt on the cap for the starter
any suggestions?
Also, where does one get an alternator cover puller?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 12, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
I can't get to the other bolt on the cap for the starter
any suggestions?
Also, where does one get an alternator cover puller?
remove the gear.
that's the only way.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 12, 2009, 10:23:33 AM
Also, where does one get an alternator cover puller?
An automotive steering wheel puller is perfect.
Quote from: 64duc on September 12, 2009, 01:27:09 PM
An automotive steering wheel puller is perfect.
I actually took all the bolts off and then put the slave back on, pumped it once slowly
bam. cover off.
just got the sidestand out of the way during lunch.
one more bolt to go and off to the starter re-build shop I go!
Ok, so I got the starter swapped out with a working one, but the bike still won't start. I had the old starter at a rebuild shop and they confirmed it didn't work and needed to be replaced. Luckily, I sourced one locally from a nice ducati owner.
make the beast with two backser still doesn't start, so it must be some sort of issue.
1. There is the solenoid under battery box
2. One wire clips into the plastic clip that goes into the battery. No fuse
3. Another wire runs to the starter. No fuse (at least that I can see)
4. Another wire runs to the the actual "start" button on the handlebar.
Under the seat is a fuse box and one of them is "ignition."
I swapped the 7.5 fuse with another one from the fuse box and nothing there.
What do I do next?
Make sure the small white connector in between the two cables on the solenoid is making a good connection.
Remove and reinstall it to be certain.
Have you jumped the two cables to see if the starter will turn that way?
Quote from: ducpainter on September 22, 2009, 02:34:03 PM
Make sure the small white connector in between the two cables on the solenoid is making a good connection.
Remove and reinstall it to be certain.
Have you jumped the two cables to see if the starter will turn that way?
I tried that with the white plug and connections. All was good.
Addressing your second part:
I took a good battery, hooked it up with some small jumper cables, ground on the motor and put the hot on the starter post.
bingo. Starter cranked.
So obviously the issue is between the battery and the starter.
Do you have a voltmeter?
Quote from: ducpainter on September 22, 2009, 06:01:39 PM
Go find out.
Then we can talk.
10-4
I think 'tizzy told me to buy one too.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on September 22, 2009, 06:08:29 PM
10-4
I think 'tizzy told me to buy one too.
unless you can see electrons...
it's the way to go.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 22, 2009, 06:11:40 PM
unless you can see electrons...
it's the way to go.
well, sometimes...
(http://signpost.host22.com/drugs/img/lsd1.jpg)
Quote from: ducpainter on September 22, 2009, 06:11:40 PM
unless you can see electrons...
it's the way to go.
[laugh]
Be careful when removing/installing the nut that holds the cable onto the starter.
You *do not* want the stud to turn when you turn the nut.
Alright, bought myself a little automotive voltage tester.
The solenoid is getting power from the battery.
However, the starter is not getting power from the solenoid.
So I am guessing the problem is the solenoid is out. Yes?
The solenoid is a normally 'open' circuit in that the device only passes current when the low-current (2x wires in the white connector) supply power to a small electro-magnet which closes the contacts and makes the solenoid a 'closed' circuit. At that point, the batter has a path to power the starter motor. If the solenoid is getting the low-current signal voltage from the 'start' button and the bike still isn't starting then yes...your solenoid is fried.
However, if the test you described was done without the low-current circuit of the solenoid powered up, then the test results aren't valid.
Check to see if the solenoid is getting 12V power through the two wires in the white connector when you have the key on and the 'START' button depressed.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on September 23, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
Check to see if the solenoid is getting 12V power through the two wires in the white connector when you have the key on and the 'START' button depressed.
How do I test the white connector?
Stick the volt meter prong on the fitting and then hit the start button?
Remove the white connector and put both test leads from your meter into the plug (one per side). Set the meter to DC voltage. Turn the key on. Hit the 'START' button. Check the meter's readings. They should mirror the battery readings within 0.1-0.5 volts DC.
Mr Stuart is the man!
He guided me through and I found the problem.
solenoid is bad.
however, since I am a moron and coudln't figure out the multimeter.......I fried a fuse.
must have had the setting wrong on the device, as when I hit the button on the starter with the prongs in the female end, POP goes the fuse box. But the good news is it had a reading before that.
Therefore, I know the line had juice.
Just ordered the yamaha starter solenoid from CA-Cycleworks
Seems to be a hard part to find locally
You fixed it because you procured a device to see electrons. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on September 23, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
You fixed it because you procured a device to see electrons. ;D
Um........I need someone to teach me how to use that make the beast with two backsing thing!!!
I fried two fuses with it!!!
the only reason I know Stu's idea worked is because it registered on the device and then POP! blew a fuse
We have a DESMOHIO maintenance day on Sunday; going to bring this device with a notepad so someone can teach me how to use it!!!
what can I say........
1. doctor's son: my dad tried to install a new toilet when I was a kid. He tightened the base bolts too much and cracked the porcelain!
2. I am a finance guy. I live my life in excel, bank statements, hedging, etc. I can guide anyone there!
maybe time to learn how your bike works... ;D
Quote from: ducatiz on September 24, 2009, 06:56:22 AM
maybe time to learn how your bike works... ;D
Well, I know how the starting system works now [thumbsup]
I was greeted at lunch today with a nice package from CA-Cycleworks containing my new relay.
15min install
hook up battery
Fired right up!
I want to think Duck Stew for all of his help on this. He spent a lot of time PMing me helping my un-mechanical self diagnosis and test certain connections to isolate the problem.
It worked. I did my first major "repair" on any of my bikes or in fact.....at any time in my life.
Also, thanks to Tizzy' and Ducpainter as they also gave me pointers.
Thanks everyone!
i guess you didn't break a nail this time.