Ducati Monster Forum

a mate has a S2R 1000, it's just 3 years old and at it's 20k service he was informed that there are 1 inch cracks in the cases at the rear engine mounts on both sides.
i'm curious to see if any members here have had the same problem and if so how was your dealer or NFI about it? being out of warranty may be an issue but here's hoping there's some good faith like when the 900SS frames were found to crack at the weld around the steering head.

paul.

Has he had it since new??  :o

yep. he's in his 40's rides sensibly, no wheelies, never crashed it.

no cracks yet looney and check the cush drives ducati now says replace at 20,000 kays

Hmmm, maybe thats the extra movement/noise coming from my clutch area??  [roll]

The basket etc is only 20,000k old, (original basket/plates replaced at 23,000k ) and there isnt a lot of movement in the basket so thats all still serviceable, but the hub hasnt been done!!  ???

So I just wonder if the cush drives in the back of the hub are just about "Jatz Crackered"?

Time for a good look (and the rear mount area) , as the M1000S DS is an S2R's slightly older brother I guess. ;)

I better check my bike!

Have you got any pics?


Rob

Some pics would be great.

So now we have to replace the cush drives/rubbers at 20000k's now?

I think when I get a new set of sprockets and chain I'll replace them then, I've just clicked over 20000k's and my Cush drives/rubbers still appear fine.

Does anyone other than a dealer sell the Cush drives/rubbers?

the rear engine mount supports the rear frame weight as well. has he overloaded the bike? maybe that could be the cause

or overtorqued engine mount bolts?

This has surely got to be a rare issue though?
I have only ever heard of this on a couple of other bikes, usually from contamination/fault during the molding process.

This is about the 20th odd bike I've heard this happen to. My own 1995 M600 happened the same thing after 45+000K's.
Several US people have reported the same thing. But were talking 1 in every 1000 bikes at most, not common, but not unheard off either.
It IS repairable and the engine mounts can be re-welded. Sometimes still in the frame if the welder/tradesman is good.

From discussion on the old board, I think there's more suspicion aimed at under torqued mount bolts - the movement allowed if the bolts are loose could be what cracks the castings...

Like Sydmonster says, it's not _common_, but it's far from unknown...

big

good to know. will be making careful checks on the rebuild.

bazz is referring to the SSS bikes that have a problem with the cush drive rubbers separating and the outer backing out from the rear sprocket and rubbing on the swingarm and eccentric. your DS being a normal swingarm is imune from this particular problem, but not from the cush drive rubbers actually tearing, that said, i've seen them last 100k in an SS.
no pics yet, we're riding this weekend so i'll get some if i can.

paul.

Hi guys.
I'm the poor bastard Paul is refering to. Just started surfing the web to find out if this is a common problem. I will post pics tomorrow for others to check their bikes.
Thanks for starting this Paul, appreciate it.
I'm taking it to the dealer next week when I get a chance with a view to Ducati doing hopefully the right thing.
I don't flog the bike. Its never looked like going down and don't wheelie it or even pillion it so am at a loss as to how and why this occurred.
This bike gets better looked after and pampered than my kids.
Bevan at Eurotwins said this can happen when engine mount bolts are lose. Mine were not as the fault was discovered yesterday by him doing the 20000k service.

Been told the fix is to drop the entire engine out, strip it down, get it welded and re-painted then re-assembled. Cost from $1300- 1500 all up.

cheers

stick too your guns pju ive done some kicking and screaming about cush drives backing out on my monster and chewing the eccentric hub my local ducati now admits that it is a problem and has fixed one bike out of warranty all ready so now there looking into fixing mine  [thumbsup]

you can drop the engine out yourself and go get it welded for WAY cheaper ;)

how do you post pics on this site guys?

We don't host pics here - you need to post them elsewhere and link to them. Some instructions for a few different pic hosting options are here:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.0)

cheers,

big

thanks Big.

the problem with warranty in a case like this is that it'll pretty much have to be an italian approval as nfi aren't going to pay for it and they'll give you parts only (set of cases) and then say it either has to be done at a dealer with you paying labour or (but i doubt this anyway) you bring in your old cases and you get the new ones.

if it has to be done at a dealer then i'd expect them to charge your 25 or so hours labour for it.  so it's still not at all cheap.

the ss frame thing was a widely known and documented issue.  i've never seen a non crashed bike do this, altho i believe others if they say they've experienced it.  but it may be hard to prove if it ends up in court given the low occurance and how much unknown their lawyer can stir up.

but remember it's not up to the dealer and realistically not up to nfi either.

Thanks for the feedback Brad.
I'll keep you all posted.

you're joking right?
realistically, if an official importer doesn't have the discretion to approve a claim for a manufacturing defect for a product they represent and make a profit from then they're not much of an importer! and frankly, the dealer that sold the bike should be doing all it can to help a customer as well. it's all fine and dandy to make a tidy profit when everything is sailing along nicely, but when problems arise too many folks are too quick to cut the cord and let the poor bastard who bought the defective product to wear it. and i for one say that's crap! whether you think pete has crashed his bike or not doesn't matter, i've known him since before he owned it and can say he hasn't, frankly i'm glad he's not bringing it to you for a claim, here's hoping the dealer he does take it to has a more customer oriented focus than you do.  [bang]

paul.

how it was explained to me was the dealer dosent have the say nfi does but if the dealer thinks its no fault of the owner then they tell that to them , when i contacted nfi they said there wasnt a problem with cush drives but when i asked  my dealer they said there was and had all ready fixed one bike out of warranty so with my dealers help they have now come too the party  but they will only supply parts but thats fine for me ,cheers bazz

Paul, I don't think Brad means The dealer or NFI are washing there hands of the problem, I think he means for a repair of this size/magnitude some of the cost will have to be carried by Italy,

I know we had a bike that was 6 month's old burning through 3 or 4 liters of Oil every week, We sent a request to NFI for Authorization for an engine tear down/repair/rebuild, We had to send down detailed reports, parts list and Many photo's, after about a week they approved the hours and parts request.

They advised for a claim of that size, the final say had to come from Italy.

I know many dealers that go out of there way to get things through for there customers, but many times it get's turned down by NFI, you can only help out your customers so much before you are losing money. I lost count how many times in the 3 months I was dealing with Ducati parts and Warranty claims I had to be the Prick and ring people and advise them there Warranty claim had been turned down. and some of the reasons for turning down a claim would be very tenuous. but we had no choice.

Paul, you chose a bloke who does more for his customers than anyone else I've yet met....and you try and give this serve whilst going off the handle....at the point where your going off on one of your rants (this time, well and truly misplaced) at Brad....well mate....time to either stop drinking or start drinking, cause you've lost the plot on this one.

he's telling us about the chain of business decision from headquarters to the importer. We're fortunate we have someone on the site who can shine a light on the sometimes strange workings of NFI.

Your lucky I'm not a moderator, cause if I was, I'd suspend you for sheer stupidity on that misplaced, unfounded attack.

no, no no, make the beast with two backs you!
it's all well and good to say it's not the dealers problem but really, if it's not the dealers or the official importer who sells the bike and turns a nice profit from it then who's is it? you want to chime in and say that pete is likely to be left out in the cold then that's fine, it's your point of view, you're entitled to it, doesn't seem very supportive for the poor customer though does it? is that how things were where you worked before? must be a winning formula eh? gone broke haven't they?
nice language by the way, do you talk like that to everyone who disagrees with your point of view?

paul.
p.s, spider, i haven't lost the plot, nor have i been drinking, the business decisions made by nfi or the dealers are what they are, but for a small business owner to casually dismiss any responsibility on behalf of a dealer or distributor isn't really a ringing endorsement of going to bat for a customer.
i'm lucky you're not a moderator huh? well no offense mate, but i don't really care about being suspended for speaking my mind, and as for rants, i hope yours gets you a discount on your next service from brad, cause from what i've heard they are bloody expensive

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=27429.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=27429.0)


oh my god! frasers honoured a warranty claim! will wonders ever cease.

WOAH...

come on... we are all Ducati riders and LOVE our bikes. a cracked case can be discussed all day long and poeple will give tons of different opinions. some from the customer perspective and others from a dealers'. sometimes they don't jive.

but please stop the personal attacks. we all need the input from both perspectives (well i do cause i'm the idiot who took my bike apart)

'can't we all just get along'  :'(

Loony888, this is what Brad was alluding to... not to pick sides...
"They then needed to get pre-approval from Ducati." That's how Frasers covered the warranty.

I worked Service at a car dealer before, and depending on the manufacturer, yes sometimes warranty work needs higher approval. apparently Ducati needs it to be at the top.

i get that, and given that pete's bike is just out of warranty it would definitely have to be approved by ducati themselves, it's the dismissive tone and the ease with which brad can dismiss what is a large expense and a huge worry for a customer. brad doesn't know the bike, yet infers that the cases only crack when bikes are crashed, well, pete's hasn't been crashed, the engine mount bolts were tight according to the mechanic who did the service and found the cracks, so there's no valid explanation for the failure. i referenced the 900 SS frames that were a problem and replaced well outside of warranty but that's different because there were many claims and it was well documented. well, it's no different, it's a defective product, just because there's not as many instances _ yet_ makes it no less valid a claim.

paul.

my apologies to all here, especially paul for whom i can not understand how i've generated such a bad impression of myself.

i was just trying to give impartial advice to someone i've never met about what the possible and realistic outcome of what he's pursuing based on my 13 years of working for a ducati dealership and the possible implications of a "warranty" based outcome and how that might cost him more than it initially would appear.  I've had a bit of experience with that.

i don't believe any of what i said was based on my opinion of what should happen or that i gave any opinion of my own as to the owner or his bike.  if the owner feels i have then he can take it up with me.

it's situations like this that make me glad i no longer have to deal with warranty or be the person in between a screaming owner and an indifferent importer.

i wish the man good luck.

there's a difference between speaking your mind, and attacking someone for no logical reason just because you read things into a statement that no one else can read. You lost it and instead of hiding behind 'freedom of speech' and branding your self the 'speaks it as it is' why not go back and read the thread....then perhaps you might understand why I believe what you did was way out of line.

I've dealt with quite a few of the businesses in Melbourne when it comes to my bikes....and unlike you...I actually know about the man I speak about and wouldn't hesitate to say when it comes to looking after clients, everyone else has let me down or dissappointed me....except Brad.

I don't need my written word to get me a discount, mate, I have my good looks for that. The fact you had to try and discredit my opinion and try and say it was 'a suck' does show how thin the premise of your argument and attack was.

i didn't say it was "a suck", who's reading inferences in now? and it wasn't an attack, i was questioning brad's apparent indifference to a customers ( not one of his) plight. i read the thread, and quite frankly i don't give a toss what you believe is out of line, i have no interest in discrediting your opinion, you're entitled to it and if that means you're a fan of brad then so be it, why should i care? i have no personal grudge against you, or brad for that matter.
and get over yourself, you're not that good looking. [cheeky]


paul.

Paul, we've had run-ins before, and I honestly believe you're _not_ a dickhead, but that your somewhat abrasive "internet persona" comes across that way sometimes.

This is one of those times.

Brad provided an experienced inside view of what's going to happen when pju's bike gets to a dealer (and, I'll point out, got thanked by pju for it), and you've turned that around into Brad's "indifference to a customers plight". You say "it wasn't an attack", but maybe you typed all of that with a questioning face we can't see 'cause it sure looked like one to me (and Spider and Brad).

I think you owe Brad an apology. You can weasel out and say "I'm sorry people _thought_ what I wrote was an attack", or you can be a man and _actually_ apologise - but in this case _you_ are in the wrong.

big

Paul, by saying that you hope I get a discount from my comments/rant (and I do rant) IS saying that my motivation is questionable....when quite simply it isn't....my problem is that you are simply wrong AND rude. When I call you on it you question my reasons, you wouldn't act like this at the pub if we we all standing around cause you'd get smacked but you'll insult someone here who's only trying to help.

don't presume to know how i would be at the pub, i had no intentions of insulting anyone, but i'll happily say in person what i say here.

firstly, my abrasive persona on here is direct, unambiguous and easily understood, i do not talk in circles, or inuendo, if i mean to say something i will say it, unlike you. you call me a "dickhead" and a "weasel" and go about it in a way that offers you deniability, i didn't start the name calling, i didn't tell someone "make the beast with two backs you" until that person said it to me. brad can talk to people on here with that language and you say nothing about it! yet you chastise me like some spoilt child because i dare question brad?? what sort of moderator are you? i know you have your little clique and being short of decent mechanics you have to keep good ones on side but how transparent can you be????  i do not apologise because i am told to, save that for your children, it doesn't work on adults, i will apologise when i feel it is warranted, so guess what, no apology.

paul.
p.s, who edited the post by brad with the obsenities? you ian? or brad? i don't see a public dressing down for that, if anything is offensive it's the word c#*t!

Just in case anyone was wondering, that's what's happened. Paul may be back in a month...

disappointed-it-came-to-this-big

I'm disappointed it came to this too.

I don't want to stir up more shit ... but I honestly don't know who was to blame for blowing things out of proportion - it was definitely not one sided. I am not going to go back and re-read everything either.

My quick interpretation would be Brad expressed a typical dealer/NFI viewpoint (of which he is neither) and Loony suggested that was a cop out from which he, as a disgruntled customer, would not take kindly to ... everything was hypothetical up to that point. Then people started to get really upset.

Loony is quite right in that he doesn't talk in riddles and is very upfront ... he doesn't hide from what he says or hide under another name as has happened in here before. Therefore I also support his decision not to apologise and stay true to his point of view despite the pressures he was copping from various fronts - takes character I reckon.

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't make a return and I think that would be a shame as he actually contributes quite a bit of moto specific content and appears quite knowledgeable and obviously passionate. Unfortunately I think he feels quite isolated in Qld and with no real face to face time with other members he doesn't have the 'relationships' that some of us enjoy.

Now can we fire up the Qld Police vs Cyclists thread again ... I need some entertainment.

... anyway most of you guys know i speak my mind too, but in a different way. i say what i think, whether it is appropriate at the time or not. i dont really care. im here to live life and enjoy it not to be ruled by it.  Anyway let get back to a happy place like STORY TIME  :D

Unfortunately these things will always happen, seen it on a lot of other sites, so its a given. [roll]

But, just like Bazz said I'm not getting involved, but there was more than 1 party involved in this and the one that got banged doesnt appear to be the one that started the "F*** Y**".


Bang one, bang 'em all!!  :(


No more to be said, lets get on with more fun and depravity.


JUKIE, JUKIE !! where is Jukie when ya want her.  [cheeky] ;D [evil]

I got upset for a reason. Brad and I both work in industries where reputation is very important.

If one of your friends had a banking problem and I (with over 10 years experience) commented on how the business decision would need to be made, I would not take lightly to being attacked and having my professionalism taking into account.

I take comments like that very seriously. And since Betty alluded to it, we've had one case here of a member casting comments about someone else's reputation, they were removed from the site and we all banded behind the victim....so I know the community here takes slander seriously and Brad deserves that defence as much as anyone else.

i dont think loony should have been banned buts thats out of my hands  it should have been mediated better but im not choosing sides and alot of times i dont express my self very well and do seem to be blunt but english is not my best subject and i do apoligise for this but the main issue still left about this is that , ducati does not look after there clients, ive been in the marine industry all my life and even when there a problem  thats been brought about by the owner i and and the not mentioned make had too were it so why is it that ducati charges a premium and doesnt back up its product , i take my hat of to my local ducati dealer with out them i would not be riding a ducati iv had a couple of disputes and has been there for me and pressure  nfi to get things done and they have never charged me a cent , in return i have bought all my bikes through them . i hate to read these threads because i really enjoy ozmonsters and will protect all that type hear a sad day indeed cheers bazz

That's true, and if that's what Paul had been ranting about I would have been right there behind him. Brad is not Ducati, is not even an employee of a Ducati dealer any more, and actually provided useful and informed advice (and got thanked by the original poster), and Paul decided to rip into Brad's business and reputation. That's _not OK_. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and offered him the opportunity to apologise, and he decided to continue to misrepresent his words and chose to continue to be "not OK". He's done it before, I'm sure he'll do it again, and I'm gonna end up being the one who has to ban him again. And that sucks - I hate it.

big

Alrighty so since the sledging of Loony has continued in his absence I have now re-read the entire thread ... and I've got say 'what the hell are you guys on about?'. I was seeing both points of view but the longer it has gone on the more ridiculous things have become.

Now I am used to be misunderstood but perhaps some of you guys should go back and re-read the thread yourselves and look at it from Loony's stated point of view.

Things I have been unable to find:
. slander or attack on Brad
. ripping into Brad, his business or reputation
. where it was implied that Brad represents or is Ducati
. any questioning of Brad's professionalism

I know we all interpret things differently but I just can't find any of these things written or implied. There is however one post which has mysteriously disappeared so perhaps there are others which I can no longer see.

It would seem that there have been a number of questions raised as to Loony's character however both explicitly and implicitly.

I'm willing to play, give me your best (while I'm still here).


... and if this is the case that I think it is ... I wasn't aware that the 'someone' had a reputation. As for the 'community' taking it seriously it would have been nice if we had actually uncovered who was responsible. Or if the member of the community had owned up.

Holy crap man. I've been away for a while and all hell brakes lose over this.
Come on guys why can't we all get on.
If anyone is still interested here are the pics.
My daugher is in hospital so at the moment a cracked case is nothing to her problems.

http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae92/pju_photos/ (http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae92/pju_photos/)

Absolutely. But obviously something you would prefer not to have to deal with.

All the best with the bike and your family. Huggies to your daughter.

i deleted my response to paul as it was not appropriate and offensive to some at least and that's why i apologised to all.  it was written in response to a comment from paul that i took strong offence to when i didn't feel like being eloquent.  i expected it would have been removed, and was surprised that it wasn't.  to remove him from the list and not myself is unfair.

paul is free to express his opinion.  i'm free to take offence at the comments he has directed at me about my professional behaviour.  in particular i took offence to this:

"frankly i'm glad he's not bringing it to you for a claim, here's hoping the dealer he does take it to has a more customer oriented focus than you do."

others may think i'm being overly sensitive.

the comment i made about the 900ss frames being a known issue and this not is because we did maybe 10 - 15 frames at least, but i don't recall ever hearing of engine mount failures in any conversations with anyone (nfi staff, dealer techs, etc) that didn't involve a crash.  i wasn't doubting the owner's word or those of others who have experienced it.

that aside, paul's response to the comment that he seems to have taken most offence to, and one that betty has also commented on, i don't really understand:  

"but remember it's not up to the dealer and realistically not up to nfi either."

it was not an opinion or written in a dismissive tone, just the way it works.  a dealer cannot authorise a warranty on their own.  you have to submit a warranty request and go from there.  often a dealer will say they will fix someting under warranty, but that's only because their experience tells them it will happen without issue.  they still have to follow the process.  and ducati are at the top of the tree when it comes to warranty, as they're paying for it, so they get the say of yay or nay.  that was my point.  whether or not their decision is right or wrong or in any way based on good customer service was something i wasn't commenting on.

bazz20 comments that his dealer has gone into bat for him and things have worked out ok.  others here may know of things like st4s owners getting dp ecu to replace their std one when it died, 916 owners getting cast iron floating discs for 1/3 of the retail when their stainless ones warped, stuff like that.  we did a lot of it over the years, and that sort of thing is fairly simple, and all round tends to make everyone look good.  we did it, and nfi / ducati would do that sort of stuff in cases where there was an option that made owner smile.

but this is not one of those cases.  there is only one issue here, and that's who's paying for a repair that, if done properly, involves probably $5,000 in parts and $2,500 in labour at usual retail prices.  on a bike that is out of warranty.  i've argued with the tech man at nfi (who is a friend) over stuff like this before, and his ultimate response (because it's not his decision either, he's just an employee) often was " the italians aren't going to pay for it, wally and wally aren't going to pay for it, and that's it".  the only possible influence a dealership owner can exert here is to offer to contribute cash or service foc, because it's all about money, and only about money.

that's my experience of it anyway.  i can't see the owner getting a resolution he's happy with.

sorry if i've dragged this out unneccesarily, but i was offering some advice on how the system works and it got read in a way it wasn't written.

I've just lifted Looneys suspension.

I over reacted and misused my mod powers, and I apologise to Paul and to the rest of you, I should have handled this way better.

big

thank you big ian , i believe this needs too be resolved and peace being restored too our wonderful family  that we have here

Thanks for the response Brad, believe it or not that was more or less the way I read it.


Again I believe Loony's issue (and this is just the way that I read it) was that from an emotional customer's point of view he would be expecting a little more sympathy and support ... from the dealer. Regardless of the likely outcome diplomacy would be the key - I'd suggest if you had to deal with such a case you probably wouldn't say to your customer 'warranty claim, ha ... ya dreamin ... was that all, ok have a nice day'.

But factual internet posts can often come across as dismissive. Was it personal? Dunno, but the fact that you are not a (or the) dealer makes it a moot point.


Which I didn't see as an attack on you either. I'd reckon if that comment had come from Frasers in Sydney (which is extraordinarily likely) NOBODY would have an opinion other than Loony's.


Oh no what have I done!

... the above statement is not intended to admit any involvement in the re-instatement of Loony's access ...

Now, again, can someone fire up in the cyclcist thread again please.

update!
just spoke to pete, he's got his bike back with new cases supplied and fitted under warranty. pete paid for part of the labour but considering he got new gearbox bearings and new cases and half the labour AND his bike was just OUT of warranty it's a big thumbs up to NFI imports and brisbane ducati at windsor.

paul.

Wow that's interesting reading, its like a soap opera

Sounds like a reasonable outcome I s'pose. Not so reasonable that it happened in the first place.

Ya don't know if ya don't ask!