I am still trying to figure out what ALS450 is -- I found my owner's manual for my 600SS which states the frame is "chrome-molybdenum" .. this manual is not for the USA market, so I wonder if there is some difference in the info they put out depending on market.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 16, 2009, 09:15:24 AM
I am still trying to figure out what ALS450 is -- I found my owner's manual for my 600SS which states the frame is "chrome-molybdenum" .. this manual is not for the USA market, so I wonder if there is some difference in the info they put out depending on market.
Whatever it is Ducati can't seem to make a pretty weld with it. Ive seen some ugly ones (http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll161/porschaholic/smileys/vomit-smiley-024.gif)
...which is funny because I have a welding book and it shows a closeup of a Ducati frame as an example for TIG. [laugh]
FWIW
From: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html)
EN 10296-1
E420M
http://books.google.com/books?id=SpcF9IrYKRoC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=e420m+steel&source=bl&ots=CdyBMf50Li&sig=hSjoee_zOWQS_OOANdrpRmNevzM&hl=en&ei=XSaxSsWiLcac8Qb4ybDCDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=e420m%20steel&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=SpcF9IrYKRoC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=e420m+steel&source=bl&ots=CdyBMf50Li&sig=hSjoee_zOWQS_OOANdrpRmNevzM&hl=en&ei=XSaxSsWiLcac8Qb4ybDCDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=e420m%20steel&f=false)
ALS = "alloy steel"
450 is a composition of carbon, chromium, molybdenum, copper, manganese and nickel.
Perk is better corrosion resistance than 4130 and easier to weld. But you lose a few benefits of 4130 as well for that tradeoff.
Some of what I have seen on Ducati's frames are rolled / welded and equivalent to mild steel tubing. Others have the internal characteristic of the raised line per DOM tubing.
I used 4130 chromoly for all my frames. Higher carbon content and less moly/chromium. But more involved to TIG weld / heat normalize and most people wouldn't know the difference accept the higher cost itself. (I know the difference and thus require its use even with the additional costs involved of the tubing itself)
Ducati HAS built some high quality frames with good tubing in them -- but only for racing use mostly or some of the rare 851's.
As for the welds themselves on Ducati frames? Hideous is a good word to describe most of them.
Quote from: MotoCreations on September 16, 2009, 10:06:46 AM
ALS = "alloy steel"
Perk is better corrosion resistance than 4130 and easier to weld. But you lose a few benefits of 4130 as well for that tradeoff.
What are the benefits of 4130 over ALS450? Lighter weight? Why is a higher carbon content with less moly/chromium a good thing?
When I was a little kid in the 70's a neighbor had a BMX style bike that was supposedly chromoly. His bike was lighter than everyone else's bikes. That always stuck with me b/c we never really know what chromoly was. To us it was some sort of exotic metal.
Quote from: Travman on September 16, 2009, 10:16:24 AM
What are the benefits of 4130 over ALS450? Lighter weight? Why is a higher carbon content with less moly/chromium a good thing?
When I was a little kid in the 70's a neighbor had a BMW style bike that was supposedly chromoly. His bike was lighter than everyone else's bikes. That always stuck with me b/c we never really know what chromoly was. To us it was some sort of exotic metal.
probably PRICE
Ducati frames are made from a mild steel. I've researched that # both in the US and in Europe and while some of the metal guys have heard of it thru Ducati useage, no one can actually find it as a commercial variation of steel.
Chro-mo steel is a high strength steel that is used for about a zillion applications and is today's standard for fabrication tubing for custom motorcycles, self built airplanes, race car roll cages, etc. The # commonly associated is 4130, although I've heard arguments that 4130 doesn't technically meet chro-mo specs.
If you want to know more (and really get confused), google steel alloys and different heat treatments and you will find enough info to keep you busy for a while.
Each one has different stretch characteristics, weldability, machineability, stiffness, etc.,......................................................
Norm, Is 4130 lighter than the mild steel used in Ducati frames? Or is it just stronger. Or maybe it is stronger and therefore you can use less of it for building a frame and the frame is lighter because of less material being necessary? Is 4130 what you used for your custom built bikes?
The 4130 is a code of the American Iron & Steel Institute and defines the approximate chemical composition of the steel.
Here is some information I found on the web which may be relevant:
The "41" denotes a low alloy steel containing nominally 1 percent chromium and 0.2 percent molybdenum (hence the nickname "chromoly"). The "30" denotes a carbon content of 0.30 percent. In addition, as normal constituents of plain carbon and low alloy steels, there will be around 0.2-0.5 percent silicon, 0.5-1.0 percent manganese, and well under 0.1 percent of each of a dozen or so other elements whose presence is unavoidable, in a few cases deliberate, and generally not harmful. The remaining 97-98 percent is iron (Fe).
There are many tens, perhaps hundreds, of different steels defined by that AISI 4-digit code system. The code does not specify any particular mechanical properties, only approximate chemical composition. For any particular grade (composition) (AISI number) of steel, the mechanical properties depend on what heat treatment has been applied, and what (if any) cold work has subsequently been done.
This sounds like a good topic for Kevin Cameron to cover in his TDC column in Cycle World
Quote from: Norm on September 17, 2009, 08:30:46 AM
Ducati frames are made from a mild steel. I've researched that # both in the US and in Europe and while some of the metal guys have heard of it thru Ducati useage, no one can actually find it as a commercial variation of steel.
Chro-mo steel is a high strength steel that is used for about a zillion applications and is today's standard for fabrication tubing for custom motorcycles, self built airplanes, race car roll cages, etc. The # commonly associated is 4130, although I've heard arguments that 4130 doesn't technically meet chro-mo specs.
If you want to know more (and really get confused), google steel alloys and different heat treatments and you will find enough info to keep you busy for a while.
Each one has different stretch characteristics, weldability, machineability, stiffness, etc.,......................................................
Any thoughts? From the 1998 600SS owner's manual.
Ducati claims it is chrome-moly
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/boardpics/scan0012.jpg)
QuoteOr maybe it is stronger and therefore you can use less of it for building a frame and the frame is lighter because of less material being necessary?
Yes, that's it. All types of alloy steels weigh about the same, for all practical purposes. With stronger material you can use thinner wall tubing for the same strength.
The downside is that although physically stronger, it can be more susceptible to cracking from vibration or impact, especially around welds. At one time I was close to building an experimental aircraft and the online discussions about welding 4130 tubing were kind of like our oil threads here.
QuoteDucati claims it is chrome-moly
If anyone has a scrap frame laying around, alloy and carbon steels give off distinct spark patterns compared to low carbon steel when ground with an abrasive grinder. That'd be one first and simple test.
Or maybe one of the members here works in a metallurgical lab - would be an interesting job.
Quote from: Langanobob on September 17, 2009, 10:42:23 AM
If anyone has a scrap frame laying around, alloy and carbon steels give off distinct spark patterns compared to low carbon steel when ground with an abrasive grinder. That'd be one first and simple test.
Or maybe one of the members here works in a metallurgical lab - would be an interesting job.
plenty of tail chops....
but my manual is from 1998, so it isn't current... and you're not cutting my little bike frame! :D
Quote from: Langanobob on September 17, 2009, 10:38:39 AM
Yes, that's it. All types of alloy steels weigh about the same, for all practical purposes. With stronger material you can use thinner wall tubing for the same strength.
The downside is that although physically stronger, it can be more susceptible to cracking from vibration or impact, especially around welds. At one time I was close to building an experimental aircraft and the online discussions about welding 4130 tubing were kind of like our oil threads here.
+1
Relevant to our frames, if you use 4130 vs mild steel, and use a thinner wall tube to take advantage of it's higher strength, the frame will flex more.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 17, 2009, 10:11:25 AM
Any thoughts? From the 1998 600SS owner's manual.
Ducati claims it is chrome-moly
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/boardpics/scan0012.jpg)
On the old board there was a similar thread to this current thread. There were numerous references to chromoly frames in Ducati's literature cited, but the experts all said no. It was just mild steel when you cut into it. Plus, Norm just said it was mild steel. I think Ducati was either trying to make their frames sound more expensive/exotic or they simply made some sort of honest translation mistake.
Well, the alloy that Ducati uses *may* have chrome and molybdenum in it, just not at the levels that would make it 4130.
When I used to fix stock frames, I cut into a lot of them - it ain't chro-mo, it's some kind of mild steel.
If you use a stronger tubing, like chro-mo, you can thin out the walls and then adjust the flex characteristics you want by increasing the diameter. Like everything else, each material has it's own special tricks and you don't learn them all from welding school. When I join a really thin wall to another tube I put an internal sleeve into it. In bicycles, it's referred to as a "double butt". In areas where there is a critical joint, I frequently also add an internal sleeve. As for welding - you don't use chro-mo filler unless you're going to re heat treat the whole thing.
I can go on and on, but if you want to work with a specific material, develop a relationship with one or more experienced welders who have spent years learning, and let them pass on some knowledge.
Quote from: Speeddog on September 17, 2009, 12:44:02 PM
Well, the alloy that Ducati uses *may* have chrome and molybdenum in it, just not at the levels that would make it 4130.
that would be very sneaky and not nice.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 18, 2009, 08:34:00 AM
that would be very sneaky and not nice.
Maybe they're trying to pull a fast one, or maybe it's just a translation thing.
Quote from: Speeddog on September 18, 2009, 09:13:55 AM
Maybe they're trying to pull a fast one, or maybe it's just a translation thing.
nah, look at my scan, its in italian first! then english, spanish, german.. etc.. :D
To add stiffness to a frame -- you have two areas to work with: wall thickness (weight) or large diameter (thinner wall). (I prefer the latter)
Picture is of an ST2 frame, SportClassic frame and the 1.5in OD 4130 chromoly main tubes I'm using for Orange Kist. I'll use larger diameter tubes (internally butted) for crossbraces as well. My goal is to be @6lbs lighter than factory and stiffer torsional/bending resistance (measureable on the factory frame).
note: On some of the bulletin boards is posted the $14K+ titanium frame from NCR. Beautiful to look at. But I honestly believe you could build something much better (and lighter) for less money using chromoly and some butted tubing. Too bad someday a frame builder doesn't build a ALS450, 4130 chromoly and a titanium frame to the same specs/geometry -- it really would be interesting to ride all ride and how much the ride/handling would differ between them.
(http://www.motocreations.com/dmf/chromoly.jpg)
Quote from: MotoCreations on September 18, 2009, 10:14:35 AM
To add stiffness to a frame -- you have two areas to work with: wall thickness (weight) or large diameter (thinner wall). (I prefer the latter)
Picture is of an ST2 frame, SportClassic frame and the 1.5in OD 4130 chromoly main tubes I'm using for Orange Kist. I'll use larger diameter tubes (internally butted) for crossbraces as well. My goal is to be @6lbs lighter than factory and stiffer torsional/bending resistance (measureable on the factory frame).
note: On some of the bulletin boards is posted the $14K+ titanium frame from NCR. Beautiful to look at. But I honestly believe you could build something much better (and lighter) for less money using chromoly and some butted tubing. Too bad someday a frame builder doesn't build a ALS450, 4130 chromoly and a titanium frame to the same specs/geometry -- it really would be interesting to ride all ride and how much the ride/handling would differ between them.
(http://www.motocreations.com/dmf/chromoly.jpg)
Aren't the 696, 1100 and D16 larger tubing with thinner walls
"main tubes" measured in US / OD:
M696/M1100 -- 1.35in
Hypermotard -- 1.125in
Multistrada -- 1.10in
ST2 -- 1.10in
early Supersport / Monster -- 1.00in
I didn't measure the Desmosedichi yet. No idea on the Streetfighter, S2R800/S4RS/S2R1000 nor 848/1098 superbikes.
note: just sacrificed a MS frame this morning -- damaged due to a frontal hit. All the welds sheared at the HAZ points as usual. As typical of most Ducati's, the frame is "soft" and easy to bend. I can definitely state that 4130 chromoly in the same size tube / wall thickness -- it is MUCH MUCH more difficult to bend than the Ducati factory frame material.
Finally...
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html)
QuoteAccording to technical types at the home office, the alloy in question is also known as Fe E 420 or E420M UNI 10296-1. ALS is common shorthand for alloy steel, and 450 is the factory's designation for this particularly complicated alloy. More corrosion-resistant than the familiar 4130 chrome moly (a.k.a. chromoly) variety, it's relatively easy to weld and has what engineers like to call "a high modulus of elasticity," making it more durable in a tip-over. ALS 450 debuted in the '95 916's steel-trellis skeleton, and is also employed on the Desmosedici RR, using a different diameter to maintain rigidity without increasing wall thickness. The 15.8-lb. Desmo-sedici RR frame uses four different tubes ranging from 18 to 28mm in diameter, with a wall-thickness of 1.5 to 2mm.
Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html#ixzz1Xr7rRikE (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html#ixzz1Xr7rRikE)
OK, that's some good info, though I'm a bit skeptical as it's MO, and they say things like this:
"and has what engineers like to call "a high modulus of elasticity," making it more durable in a tip-over."
That's either bad translation, taking bad interview notes, or they're talking to sales and marketing.
No mechanical engineer that knew his ass from a hot rock would say that.
ahhm... dunno about finally! this is on page 1 of the thread...
Quote from: Drjones on September 16, 2009, 09:58:54 AM
FWIW
From: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/answers/122_0907_ask_the_pro/index.html)
EN 10296-1
E420M
http://books.google.com/books?id=SpcF9IrYKRoC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=e420m+steel&source=bl&ots=CdyBMf50Li&sig=hSjoee_zOWQS_OOANdrpRmNevzM&hl=en&ei=XSaxSsWiLcac8Qb4ybDCDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=e420m%20steel&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=SpcF9IrYKRoC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=e420m+steel&source=bl&ots=CdyBMf50Li&sig=hSjoee_zOWQS_OOANdrpRmNevzM&hl=en&ei=XSaxSsWiLcac8Qb4ybDCDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=e420m%20steel&f=false)
I have the same literature, and saved articles from mid 90s on Ducati frames.
I seriously doubt the frames are anything close to chrome moly. For two reasons. Doing a tail chop on the M900, it was far too easy to cut through, file and work than CrMo. Also, if it is some mysterious ALS alloy that minimizes rust I'm also not buying it. Drop the engine from a mid 90s Duc and take a close look at the inner faces which mate to the engine cases. Rust? Probably, just as much there as if you snaked a plumbing camera down the frame tube and took a look at it from the inside.
The article I linked said they only introduced the ALS450 on the 95 916, so it probably did not make it to the SS and monsters until later.
I doubt they would baldfacedly lie about it -- and there are so many varieties of chro-moly ... it's certainly not the same stuff Verlicchi used.