Ducati Monster Forum

B., an unfortunate casualty of our ride (http://"http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29055.75") on Saturday has graciously agreed to discuss the details of his crash and accept input as a learning exercise.  First talks about the crash start on post #89 in that thread I believe. 

All too often we seem to skirt around the facts surrounding people's crashes.  It's not an STD.  [cheeky] We can talk about it beyond "Gee, hope you're OK" and "Heal up fast".  While I think that everyone appreciates a kind word after an accident, it does little to prevent someone else from making the same mistake.  We're a small group here, and we take other people's crashes pretty personally.  We've had a couple of folks die and others badly injured as a result of poor judgment, inexperience, circumstance, bad luck, you name it... There's enough crap out there that is out of our control.  Smart people learn from their mistakes--really smart people learn from other people's mistakes. 

Personal accountability is important, but no one was hurt, and no property other than the downed rider's was damaged:  I request that any posts remain respectful here. 

Let's start off with B's account of what happened:

First reply posted from previous thread.

I'd like to evaluate myself as ride leader and organizer:  

I gave what I felt was a long-winded safety speech before we saddled up.  I typically feel a little nervous giving these talks and try to play it down.  They're important and I shouldn't rush through them or make light of their content.  I neglected to mention the corner that B. fell in.  Other ride leaders have done that in the past.  Looking back I should have made special note of that corner.  While there are plenty of blind, decreasing radius surprises on the mountain, that one in particular can be tricky at any speed and I knew it.  

I was told that initially I started out the ride a little fast, but by the time we had gotten to the turn that my pace had slowed down to something very comfortable.  I always start off riding a little too quickly, especially when I'm leading... there's that whole pressure to impress when what's really important is to make sure everyone is safe and you're doing a pace that's comfortable for everyone.  I had advertised the ride as a "slow ride" and it was--but it took me a few minutes to get the pace right.  

I did slow way up for the turn well ahead of it.  I felt a little silly doing it, but I really wanted to make sure everyone got through it OK.  The last time I looked at my speedo I was going 15 mph and was still braking for the turn.  I was going slow enough in first gear that I almost needed to pull in the clutch, and my gearing is low, so I was probably going 5-10 mph.  I was signaling to the riders behind me to 'slow down' and had gone over hand signals prior to taking off.  I don't believe I covered that one.  Even though B. knew what it meant, a newer rider might not have.  My bad.  That's a big one.  

After I exited the turn I saw one pair of headlights, but nothing else.  I went through one more turn and realized no one other than myself and the rider behind me, Desmostro, had come down the hill.  He and I pulled over at a straight spot in the road (we were trying to be visible to traffic) and waited for a moment.  We saw cars coming down the road from behind us and we both new someone had crashed.  He turned around, and I followed a minute later.  I needed a moment to get myself together because I didn't know how bad it was going to be.  I'm glad I did this.  I was going through what I needed to do depending on the extent of injuries, etc.  Fortunately I arrived to find everyone was healthy.  Whew!

There was a lot of confusion and bikes all over the place at the crash.  The terrain at that spot makes it difficult to get everyone together in a safe spot.  I was focused on the crashed rider and left everyone else to fend for themselves.  I should have assigned an experienced person to slow approaching traffic down as we tried to assess the damage and take care of the bike, and another to keep the group put and give directions.  The group eventually started to organize and get moving a couple people at a time, but I wasn't exactly sure where everyone was for several minutes.  After it was done I was a little rattled and forgot that I'd left my bike in gear since I'd stopped on a steep part of the road.  It lurched forward when I started it up and I could have easily had it tip over.  Dumb move--we might have had two bikes on their sides instead of just one due to my nerves.  

SidM agreed to stay with B. until a tow truck came.  I took Sid's number and called on his and B's status after we'd gotten the rest of the group moving and onto Pt. Reyes Station.

Meh, don't beat yourself up 'belle. I led a ride that included a visiting LA rider, warned about the corner, gave the slow-down hand sign, and the guy still stacked. There's just something about that corner... I think it is some visual-perceptual mindf*ck.  Riders fixate on the bad surface, the decreasing radius, and then see the big dropoff right in front of the guardrail, and end up going into that big ditch.  Riding Tam I've lost count of the number of bikes I've seen wedged under that particular guardrail.

Plus there are about 5 different "gotcha" spots on the way up to Pt. Reyes, so I think the only reasonable thing a lead can do is warn just before approaching - there's no way someone unfamiliar would remember all the details.

I'm a new rider so nobody should even bother reading this. Seriously, hit the Back button and forget about it.

I'm going to write in general terms and revert back to car talk where it suits me better.

When I was getting started in high performance driving (autox, track, etc) the first thing I did was collect and consume as many books on the subject as possible. There are only so many things you can say about suspension, weight transfer, traction circle, line, and smoothness. Of course, they're all so important, you probably want to hear them covered at least 5 times each. But one of the things that stuck with me outside those normal topics was a book by Dennis Jenkinson. The author talked about how racing accidents almost always (or always always) happen when the driver is surprised. After  learning what makes a car (or bike) do what it does, the progress comes from 2 things. 1) perfecting the doing of what you know. It's not enough to know an art. You must learn how to apply your knowledge artfully. There is always room for improvement. 2) gaining experience so that you are surprised less often.

I understand the rider has 4 years and thousands of miles. But miles are only experience in so far as they are thoughtful. There are some serious bad habits in this description that should have been eliminated long ago. Here is my take on the contributing factors...

1) There is no excuse to get surprised by a decreasing radius corner. Whether you are on the track or the road, you just shouldn't go into an unknown corner anywhere near too hot. The reason that tracks are safer than roads are because of the surprise factors of accidents. If you've been around the same corner 40 times today, chances are you know where it goes. But even on a track, you'd take your first pass around kinda slow. Even better if you viewed track videos before ever rolling out. But the street is definitely a no-no. It sounds lame and maybe like a wet blanket, but there is no reason not to putt around every corner that you haven't seen before. It's much more fun to ride away thinking about how much speed you left on the table and estimate how much faster you can try to go the next time than to ever be in the "I'm going wide" moment. My strategy in cars or bikes is to enter at a speed I know is fine. Once I can see the exit, I use my own best judgement to roll on the throttle and try to make the apex-exit part as much fun as possible. Even if I know the road very well, I have to base my entrance speed on what might be hidden just out of view and leave enough grip on the table for unplanned reactions (Ahhh!! Deer!, or Ahhh! Oil!!) Whatever.
2) The target fixation would not have been an issue if you hadn't gone in too hot. But it shouldn't have been an issue anyway. You need to test yourself in safe situations as much as possible so that if the world manages to surprise you, your reaction is calm and correct. As an example, I remember driving my wife and another couple home one night in the snow. I was looking in the mirror at one of our passengers mid conversation when the car started to oversteer. Without even pausing or looking away from my friend, I simply corrected the oversteer and we continued on. I had seen it so many times in an autocross or on the track that my reaction is really instantaneous and does not cause any concern. It's just as natural as using the loud pedal when I want to go faster. If you ever get the to point when you want to start taking risks on corner entry (of an unknown corner no less), you should at least have vivid memories of handling the shock of running wide without panic. In bike terms, rolling on the throttle has a much stronger affect on radius than in a car because of fork geometry. So on a bike, rolling on the throttle before it's time causes the same sort of problems as entering too hot in a car. I make that clarification because I remembered the rider saying he was maybe doing okay until he opened the throttle.

Nobody is immune to crashes. But you want a very high degree of consistency of doing what you should do and of reacting the way you should when you figure out that you haven't. This is your emergency backup system and it should be very very good before you start throwing away safety margins anywhere else.

+1 'belle.  I think you did a very textbook pre-ride talk as the lead and did just fine through the parts of the ride I was on.  I certainly hold no one but myself as responsible for the incident. 

When I descend on this road I dont use my throttle until I complete the turn,and my bike is upright.youre lucky the guardrail did not eat your right leg.

Learn from it and move on. But definitely LEARN from it. There will always be junk on the road that you just cannot avoid/overcome but you can't let it stop you from getting back on.... If you find that the "worry" of what is out there and what "could" happen, makes you doubt yourself or just not enjoy riding, then you may need to step back.

It is perfectly normal to be cautious and defensive in manner when you get back on but don't let it consume you. I would also highly recommend some track days believe it or not. There you can concentrate on getting your sh1t together and improving your skills in a controlled environment before heading back out on the crazy streets....  [moto]

I struggle with switchbacks a lot.  I have a tendency to try to tighten up the turn and to hit the apex too early.  I used to do it in that exact turn and almost threw myself down the mountain a coupla times.  Now I have a different approach.

I generally don't go into switchbacks with the engine in neutral. Lately, I've been trying to do two things:  brake REALLY deep into the turn and stay on the outside of the turn rather than the inside.  Once I can see an almost straight line out of the turn, then I turn in.  The apex I'm shooting for is more than halfway through the turn (so not the bottom of the U).  That way, I know that I'm exiting in more of a straight line and not going to get pushed wide.  While this line will work for most turns (a variation on the late apex), but it's particularly important on switchbacks, cuz a switchback means you're on a mountain.  Which means that getting pushed wide has particularly gnarly consequences.

I don't think it's a particularly fast way through the turn, but it's a lot more comfortable for me.  And you can really get on the gas on the exit if the person ahead of you is leaving you in the dust.  I do something similar going uphill, which avoids the steepest part of the switchback.  

Any pre-ride briefing for Tam (if it's a big group) should mention that corner.  As b and others have demonstrated, it bites people even when they're going really slow.  I go so slowly through that turn that most of the time I ride it with the clutch in to prevent engine lugging.  

Thanks for the kind words in my direction, everyone, but I'm not losing sleep over this.  I'm just trying to do better and do my part to avoid folks taking accidental short-cuts down the mountain.  We got off lucky with this one and I thought it was a great opportunity to talk about it since no one is hurt.  It's a lot harder to discuss crashes when people are in the hospital and huge insurance claims are on the line. 

I think this discussion is going really well.  The different angles on this accident are great.  Keep it up!   [thumbsup]

I was picturing the turn in my mind and looking at it in the photos last night.  I realized that if you apex this thing even slightly early and you have a couple mph too much on, you're screwed.  Someone unfamiliar with the road and who wasn't taking that line perfectly could easily get sucked into the guardrail.  I have to force myself to go much wider than I'm comfortable with before I do a very quickly, but small, turn in.  I'm going so slowly that I often need to pull in the clutch and that adds a bit more challenge to the maneuver.  I often go just a touch wide on the exit of that corner and there's gravel on the outside of it and no shoulder. 

What Spidey is describing is the so-called "looky loo" line (I didn't coin this term, don't blame me)

Maximize the turn radius, give yourself as long a line of sight possible down the road and position yourself in such a way as to make you far less likely to target-fixate on the outside of the corner.

It's not the fastest way through a corner, but who cares? And once you see the path is clear, you can always gas it a bit more.

If you hug the inside, stuff is going to come at you with a lot more of a surprise factor, your eyes are going to be focused right in front of you and you have less of an opportunity to focus down the road (you know... the place you actually want to go)

Awesome insights about this turn in particular, which also apply to many more roads I love riding on.

If I'm able to leave the office early enough, I owe you guys  [drink] at 'geist.

I think that's a big part of the David Hough Proficient Motorcycling (http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253561594&sr=8-1) book - that you want to be able to see as far through the corner as possible, so you late apex.

On some of those really tight, really uphill switchbacks, there's also a practical reason - you can typically go through on the wider radius corner without having to feather the clutch or stall.  It's more comfortable on the downhill too.

good post, ducleaner.

That is a GREAT book.  I really learned a lot from it - which also helped my cycling descending skills as well.  I found that book a lot more helpful for everyday riding than any of the Code books or any of the more sport-riding specific books.  It may seem a little basic, but I found it really accessible and helpful.

Really great posts about the accident - I am one who takes that particular corner in first, with the clutch largely in.  I live just over the hill from it, so I ride it almost every week.  again, glad everyone's ok.

I grabbed the corner in question from Google Earth and drew a couple of hypothetical lines through it.

The red line represents the "early apex", which you'll notice puts you pretty close to the edge, with little margin for error.

The green line is the "late apex" which requires a tighter turn initially, but gives you more comfort/margin on the exit.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2627/3941539041_38ea04cdd3_o.gif)

You might want to mention which direction that's for (for people who weren't there or aren't familiar with the route), as it's different right and left the way you drew it. ;)

For those that don't know the turn the direction of travel for MM's post is from the bottom of the picture up and to the left.    :)

The uphill direction typically isn't a problem because it's 1.  uphill and 2.  it opens up.  But yeah, that probably would be helpful to know which direction we're discussing here.   ;D

+3 or what-ever it is now.

I have started a variation of this myself while either riding for fast or while riding for safty:
 Mr.I, who lives on Pescadero Rd. (blissfully twisty and highly frequented So. Bay rd.) got me thinking after he pointed out that while in his truck, he has to swerve from hitting the heads of sportbikers apexxing with wheels on the right, and head hanging over the double yellow.   :o

That would be a closed casket funeral if you get my drift.

I see your point, but you're still in a better position if you're head-over-the-yellow, on the inside of the corner vs. wheels-over-the-yellow on the outside of a right-hander. It's a lot easier to make a small adjustment and run a bit wider, than try to bring the bike back into your lane. All this assumes of course you can see where you're headed...

That is very very true. In fact that little detail escaped my description. I was talking to DQ about this when we went to Skaggs, treating right handers and left handers a little different making things complicated.

I simply try to aim with the white stripe on the right instead of the DDBL Yellow.
You got something perfected? 'cause I want to hear it. This has been a pretty new experiment for me.

Anyone looking for a bit of practice on the braking deep turning in late, give the American Supercamp School a try. It was very informative on this style of riding.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v194/2/40/6407682/n6407682_34796767_1555.jpg)

(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v194/2/40/6407682/n6407682_34796774_3307.jpg)

The head over the yellow is only a problem when the rider is on a left-hander. 

On a right-hander he/she would be leaning away from oncoming traffic.

It really sucks having to make evasive maneuvers in a cage for someone who is leaning their head in your way.

Given the line of sight for most of the corners out this a way, and the number of exceptionally large, yet impressively fast pickups I see, I think it's best to reiterate how bad this can get. It's honestly at the point where if I maintained the line in the cage, I would kill someone. I'm not sure people realize what they're actually doing.

Prolly best to keep your head in your lane at all times, right or left.

There's a right-hander on the way up to Olema that has a big eucalyptus tree that'll take your head clean off if you let it...

My comment to Eric was just that it's easier to recover by running wide than to fix a blown right-hander and bring it back in.  I wasn't advocating hanging over the dbl yellow.

Bah, humbug!  You used to be fun.  What happened?

Re the line through the turn, while I generally try to late apex on the street, I find it takes particular thought to get the line right on downhill U turns.  You have to wait what seems like foryever until you turn in. 

Like hell you weren't.  I hear you all the time:  "If you aren't hangin' it on the DY, you ain't really riding."  We *know* the truth, Risky McRiskyton.    [evil]

Hush you two. I'm trying to put on a good front for the kids...  [roll]  ;D

I'm familiar with a particular U turn on Pescadero Rd. that is uphill going left and downhill going right--I guess it could be related to this U turn in that it's the same, but opposite.  Now that I think about it, I've always taken a late apex through this turn going uphill (which if I remember correctly, is the decreasing radius).  I really lug the bike through that turn in either direction since it's so slow.

Thx, MM, for drawing the lines on the Google Earth image--it really helps to see the "safest" line through that corner. 

Anytime you want to work on lines on corners on Pescadero Rd, let me know. :)

Thx, P.  ;D

We can do it pedal-powered for now...but I need to replace my tires on that bike first.

Absolutely, that's a great way to learn. [thumbsup]

I've gotten up to 39.5 mph going down Pescadero so it's not really all that different.  Of course we can only really work on the downhill corners that way. ;)

Let me know whenever is good for you.