I know the topic of carby Hi-comp (or big bore) kits has been discussed a bit on here, though after a search, I have some questions to my setup on the M900.
It's a 1996, with JE high comp pistons. Stock carbs, with Factory Jet kit stage 2. Arrows slip ons and K&N open 'box. Dyna coils and NGK wires. I am now sorting the bike to aim for reliability, ease of use, and overall moderate power increases that these mods will liberate. The main complaint I have is that unless I'm using the bike every day, it's a PITA to start (you know the carby warmup drill and associated prayers).
One bigger question I have is whether I need to retard the ignition to make things easier. I assume "yes", but can someone describe a few pointers? I have considered the Ignitech Sparker unit from Chris, as well as the Pederzini modules. In the meantime, I am also beefing up the starter/battery wiring. Anyone with experience with either unit and high comp or bog bore kits would be good to hear from.
I have also heard about retarding across the entire timing range, though I am unclear about it.
These mods are with the goal of riding into the upper midwest fall season, where morning temps of 40-ish aren't uncommon (though do work VERY well with carbed bikes). Absolute power isn't the main goal, but a workable, fun bike with some upgrades.
Thanks in advance for any pointers or tips.
older Monsters -- a few tricks for the electrical:
1) -2 stranded or solid wire (copper) from the engine ground (right rear near the rear brake master reservoir) to the negative post of the battery. You will be amazed at the difference this one change makes. Remember that the ground wiring on Ducati's is laughable at best.
2) larger diameter wire to the starter from the starter relay. Get more juice to it.
3) Find an aftermarket headlight rewire kit. It uses the factory headlight wiring to actuate a relay instead that uses larger gauge wiring / fuses to properly feed the headlight. Use a good ground connection. You will wonder why Ducati didn't do this when first built and why you didn't upgrade sooner.
Note: Ducati for decades ran ground wires to the frame and then a wire to the battery to finish the loop. There is a good reason it is all copper wire now and doesn't ground through the frame anymore.
I've done all these mods for @10 years. Even with oversize pistons, hi-comp, cams, FCR's, etc -- my carbie'd Ducati's come to life faster than the newer fuel injected bikes do.
Thanks for the tips. Sorting the bike (this time around) includes improving the wiring loom, so I'll add your suggestions to the mix. I've heard the starter wire was a weak link before, but hadn't thought about the ground.
Yeah, the Powerlet Wire upgrade kit (battery to starter solenoid, starter solenoid to starter, and frame ground to battery negative) has helped my '99 M900 carbie a lot.
Mark,
Are you saying that the engine is no longer grounded to the frame, but is instead directly grounded to the negative battery terminal along with the existing negative battery / frame connection?
As for the headlight, I have updated my left hand switches to the euro style so I can turn the headlight off, have max juice to crank, then flip it on for a ride.
To OP, I am in a similar boat: Have dynacoils and jet kit, open air box, and sil headers / pipes
Where are you finding Pederzini modules? I think I remember reading that they were at one time the DP version. But I don't have old catalogs lying around, and haven't found much about them online. I'm also interested in ignition stuff, because I, too, am considering hi-comp pistons and performance cams.
Ato:
As far as I know, the Ignitech takes the place of the two ignition modules which are right above your battery box. The Pederzinis were offered (maybe still are) by DP at about $200 each and were upgrades to the stock modules. The Ignitech looks to be a programmable item, and many have said that even in its "stock" or "baseline" mode, it helps starting and has a decent curve. Having something that would be modifiable for future tuning is something I'm all ears about. . . .
I just unearthed something that Chris Kelley said about green (5 ohm) vs black (3 ohm) coils, related to wasted spark, so I have some learning to do there as well. My coils are the Dyna green.
With the 11:1 pistons in my bike, starting (and often holding a consistent idle) are the main issues. If I can get these areas sorted for a reliable bike, I'd be happy. Coming into the colder months, I'm looking forward to having the time to sort it out and learn along the way.
Those wiring mods seems like a very good uppgrade!
W the Ignitech you can also adjust the timing f starting.
Greenmonster-
I'm looking forward to it, since I just picked them up today.
I'll likely be asking you for advice since you have a similar setup to my M900 (HC pistons, etc.) I've ordered the Ignitech from Chris this week, so perhaps I can learn from your input from that thread. Thanks to you, Brad and Chris for doing much of the early work with that mod.
More questions to follow, I am sure.
If you can, post up pics of the work as you do it, and kind of a how-to, since I'll be following in your foot steps in the upcoming months hopefully.
Thx, hbp, f the kind words.
F sure will help but all essentials is here in Brad`s very good write-up:
http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html)
hillbillypolack,
Any news or updates?
Just wondering if you have tinkered with the ignition any yet.
I have just begun tearing into the M900, since we've had a difficult summer here in the Detroit area. I'm sure that the news of unemployments have been in other areas as well.
Just the same, the M900 has been dormant for a number of months, and while it's kicking when it is trying to start, I think I'll have to at least clear out the carbs. I've installed thicker wires to the starter from the relay, thicker wiring to the battery negative and positive, and am now sorting out which end of the Ignitech sparker goes to which cylinder (horiz or vert), since my wiring is less than straightforward. That's this afternoon.
Will post more when I get into it, since this is a bit of a training lesson for me in timing / elecronics and carbs.
You can also upgrade that little wire that goes from behind the crankcase breather to the frame, but instead of terminating at the frame and leaving it a 6" or so long cable, you can use good 6ga cable and ground it up at the battery itself.
keep us posted as you go.
i'll be up in motorcity during christmas, i might sneak away from her family to buy you a coffee/beer
I would have to concur with the advice and feedback so far. I've got the JE pistons, jet kit, open air box, slip ons modifications also, and turning the motor over with the headlight on was difficult. I think as far as starting goes, getting that Euro style switch (or Honda VFR400/NC30 switch cluster) with the wiring upgrades suggested will do the trick. I used the switch block I had taken off my Honda 400 race bike and canniblized the headlight on-off switch. I once had a '92 Superlight with the same mods, skimmed heads (even more comp), Dyna coils and FCR's and it had a headlight on-off switch also, and I can tell you that the back to back tests proved the starter motor was up to the task if given the right amount of juice
Now thats for turning over the higher comp engine. Retarding the ignition is about stopping pinging, smoother running and releasing a pony or two (Doug Lofgren has some good articles on his MPS site). Being a tightarse, bang for buck kind of guy (four kids!!), I moved the ignition pick-ups as per Brads advice and web article. Moving the pick ups anti clockwise a calculated amount (see Brads article) retarded the ignition 2 1/2 -3 1/2 degrees.
The Ignitech module and Dyna coils are on my wish list. The Ignitech module means you can program the thing on a dyno and the bike would run beautiful. With the superior and cheaper aftermarket gear available, you wouldn't buy OEM modules or coils unless you got a bargain.
Sounds like she'll run great. Looking forward to hearing how she goes.
Cheers
Tony [beer]
With the Dyna coils and tuned ignition it will great to hear how she runs
Gday again
Just another thought, the beauty of the ignitech module is it will let you advance or retard in small increments compared to the crude 2 stage map on the OEM modules (see Brad's article). Retarding the timing on the pick ups like I did is a big tight arse compromise and if my OEM modules popped I'd get the Ignitech. You can be fully justified in purchasing it as a modernizing upgrade ;). You wont have to put up with the timing retarded all the way through the map like I do.
Brad's article points out that there is potential to map your module for a more graduated and progressive response from the choke on warm up. This will be a huge bonus to you starting and warming up. The way my bike is set up, the idle speed on warm up changes in a very abrupt manner. It's hard to modulate it with the choke (enrichner). It starts great, but after 20-30 seconds on full choke it explodes from about 1000rpm into a 3-3500rpm fast idle and is fully advanced. I have to stand there and just catch it in time to back off the choke so it stays at 1000-1300rpm or so. Is this your experience?
In cold climates, tuning the timing in this area would be a real asset, letting you bring it up gradually and not waking the kids or neighbours so suddenly. This might let you get a coffee while the bike warms up to reduce the carburetor icing up on the way to work! Or,.. you could complete the package and get FCR's [evil]!
Cheers
Tony [drink] [drink]
Any news?
Quote from: koko64 on December 06, 2009, 02:59:56 PM
Gday again
Just another thought, the beauty of the ignitech module is it will let you advance or retard in small increments compared to the crude 2 stage map on the OEM modules (see Brad's article). Retarding the timing on the pick ups like I did is a big tight arse compromise and if my OEM modules popped I'd get the Ignitech. You can be fully justified in purchasing it as a modernizing upgrade ;). You wont have to put up with the timing retarded all the way through the map like I do.
Brad's article points out that there is potential to map your module for a more graduated and progressive response from the choke on warm up. This will be a huge bonus to you starting and warming up. The way my bike is set up, the idle speed on warm up changes in a very abrupt manner. It's hard to modulate it with the choke (enrichner). It starts great, but after 20-30 seconds on full choke it explodes from about 1000rpm into a 3-3500rpm fast idle and is fully advanced. I have to stand there and just catch it in time to back off the choke so it stays at 1000-1300rpm or so. Is this your experience?
In cold climates, tuning the timing in this area would be a real asset, letting you bring it up gradually and not waking the kids or neighbours so suddenly. This might let you get a coffee while the bike warms up to reduce the carburetor icing up on the way to work! Or,.. you could complete the package and get FCR's [evil]!
Cheers
Tony [drink] [drink]
YES.
My setup had identical symptoms. I was under the impression that it was the fault of the Pederzini ingition modules. As I understood it (for better or worse), the Duc needs a high-ish idle when warming up, say 1100-1200. The Pederzini OE modules begin boosting advance at 1500, and (again as I understood it) once roms hit 1500, the modules begin taking the revs for a ride, up and up.
So, when I'd be in the driveway, the rpms were sedate. 2-3 miles out at the first stop light, I pull the clutch in and the bike feels like it'd grenade! This is one of the things I need to sort out during the teardown and winter fixup. I have Ignitech and FCRs, so I don't know if I'm just widening my confusion, or eliminating the weak links. I don't think I will go wrong with the FCRs though.
i had the same odd high/low idle with choke on the carb'd bikes i've played with.
We had an immaculate 2000 or 2001 M750 in the shop recently. Same thing with it.
Doesn't happen with the FCRs and the performance feel is drastically better!
The FCRs are a superior instrument period. They transform your bike and I have found them easier to tune than the CV carbs. You will miss the choke if you live in a cold climate. Thank God for accelerator pumps.
If my ignition dies then I will buy the Ignitech unit and avoid the ignition compromise I currently have. The ignition is retarded about 3 deg at the pick ups and this stops pinging with the hi comp pistons but I think I would like more idle advance for easier start up, especially in the cold months.
With an Ignitech unit I would dyno tune the ignition right through the rev range for easy starting, maximum power and no pinging. I'd lock my bike, a dyno and Brad Black in the same room until the ignition was tuned in 500rpm increments :D.