Ducati Monster Forum

It's been a while since I've been on here and I hope everyone is well!  I bought CJ's 695 a while back and its a great bike.  I feel I've been taking pretty good care of it but the only thing that bugs me is the suspension.  I feel it may be set up for someone lighter than I am, and would like to make it stiffer.  Is this possible?  If so how tough of an endevor is it?  i weigh about 200 lbs.  Thanks for taking the time to read this!

Not sure what part of the metroplex you live in but I know several people have had very good luck with Randy McCarter (SpeedTech @ Motopia on west side 75/Central Expressway service road, south of N. Fitzhugh). His cell # 817-706-8870. I know Lisa on the board has had Randy dial in both her 999 and her Guzzi LeMans. She said it made a big difference.

If you live on the west side you might give Eurosport Cycles a shout. I have never been there but I have heard from folks that they are a good shop. I am sure they could give you a hand at sorting your bike out. So could either AMS shop. Don't know what Randy, AMS or Eurosport charges but it can't be much.

Are you that much heavier than George? He's a chunky guy (as in fit not fat!) I don't see him being that much lighter than 200lbs. Also, there is just so much you can do with the 695's suspension. I have never owned one but I can see Ducati cutting cost corners on the boingers on an "entry" bike. I know the stock Sachs shock on my S2R1000 was fully adjustable but it made no more difference than changing the time on the dash clock! I replaced it. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 695 lacking rebound/compression damping adjustment front and rear. Certainly rear spring pre-load, not sure about the Showa forks on that model.

Good luck with it! [thumbsup]

Thank you for the fast reply.  I had a talk with Randy and looks like I'll be heading up to Motopia friday.  He said he doesn't think the forks are adjustable, but he thinks he can help some with the rear.  I hope it makes a difference!

Hey dude, glad to hear from ya.

Fastwin is correct about the forks on the 695 not being adjustable.

Here is the page on adjusting the rear. Maybe try stiffening up the damping? I would start with setting it back to "standard"--18 clicks, and adding a click or two, riding, and adjusting some more. I think the 18 clicks is for someone about 170ish....

I'm sure Randy will get you set up. [thumbsup]

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2563/3941859585_27a75649fd_o.jpg)

Oh, and BTW, love the warning on that page....  :P

That pretty much applies to anytime I use a wrench.  [laugh]

Yep its been a while George!  If you don't mind me asking how did you have her set up?  Is it on the heaviest setting?  You still riding a busa these days??

Yep, still on the Busa. I'm still trying to figure out "what" the next Duc will be and "when" it will be feasible.

I never messed with the damping, but I did stiffen the spring pre-load a couple of turns. Since I'm Italian, I just figured the factory already had it set for me.  [cheeky]

Seriously, though, a proper suspension set-up (given the equipment limitations) was on the list of "to-do's" I never did.

Good luck with the set-up. I'm sure Randy can get you there.

I had to respring the front and back of my Monster (revalved the front and replaced the entire shock too) so it was 'sprung' for my added weight.

Respringing isn't all that expensive either, and its necessary if you can't set the sag (front and rear) by simply adding preload.

To set sag (or even just measure it) you are going to need buddies.

I have the Section 8 Superbike Suspension Tuning Guide if you want it.

SUSPENSION TUNING GUIDE

T.O.C.

Geometry   3
Sag or Preload   3
Compression   3
Rebound   4
1. Setting Chassis Geometry   4
2. Setting Sag: Forks   4
3. Setting Sag: Shock   5
4. Setting Compression: Forks   6
6. Setting Compression: Shock   8
7. Setting Rebound: Shock   8
8. Checking Your Work   9
Tuning   9
Tuning Forks   9
Tuning the shock   10
Checking if you have the correct springs   10
Random thoughts   10

 
Suspension Tuning Guide
Suspension is one of the most important, but most misunderstood aspects of motorcycling. If you are a Ducati owner, which you most likely are if you are reading this, you do have a distinct advantage because your suspension components as delivered are very good. But in true Ducati fashion, are set up horribly. The following instructions are intended to provide you with a motorcycle that performs correctly when pushed hard. This may be at the track or your favorite back road. But I have found that a good track set up works very well while commuting or going to get milk at the store too. Most “race” bikes are actually a lot plusher than their street ridden brothers.

Cheating
Everything about setting up suspension can be cheated, or if you prefer compromised. Let’s say for example I say you need so and so spring for your shock in step one, but you will not be purchasing one for some time. This does not mean that you should not continue with the steps. You should. During the set up process there will be opportunities to “cheat”. But when all the steps are completed, you will not be 100% set up. But you may be 85% set up, and that is a lot better than your bike probably is right now. When you do make the purchase of the right spring, all you will need to do is have it installed, do a bit of tweaking and you will be on the cusp of greatness.

Spending Money
I am about to tell you something that you will be delighted to hear at first, but then question because it is most likely contradictory to what you have been told about suspensions and motorcycles. YOU DO NOT NEED TO SPEND A TON OF MONEY TO GO FAST! Believe it or not but it is a fact. Lets face it, we will never be THAT fast. All track day riders and most amateur racers will never be able to override the stock components on a Ducati Superbike. For example I have gone around my home track (Grattan Raceway) within 4.5 seconds of the lap record on a stock 999 with good tires, and there are a lot people that could go faster! That is outstanding performance for off the showroom floor components with a little tweaking. That being said, getting top line suspension work or components will make you go faster simply because the bike will be more composed and therefore you will be more comfortable. So spend the money if you want, it won't hurt (as long as you are getting good work or components). But don't be upset when Joe Racer smokes by you sideways on stock components.
I will keep this as basic as possible; I could write a novel on all the ins and outs of setting up a suspension. The most important thing to do while learning to set up a bike is always ask “why”. When you can figure out “why” this change did that and “why” that change did this, you will develop an internal data base of possible outcomes. So the first lesson is to always ask “why”. You can not blindly start clicking clickers and hope for a good set up. You must “test”, that means taking notes, small steps and thinking about every move you make. Secondly your ultimate goal is to get the “feel”. You will develop a sense of what is good and what is bad, but it will take time.
The outline for setting up your suspension is as follows:

Geometry
The framework for a good set up. Geometry is the “hard” setting that you will be putting into your bike. Geometry is the angles and or heights that you plug into your bike. Geometry is 75% of your ideal set up. There are specific geometry settings in either the 749/999 or the 748/916/996/998 sections.
Sag or Preload
Sag can be looked at one of two ways, #1 as a secondary geometry setting. But unlike geometry which is a “hard” setting, sag is dictated by spring rate. This must be picked and set up correctly. #2 as a means of confirming you have the correct spring rate for your application. The process of setting sag will “tell you” if you have the correct springs. Springs are the foundation of all suspension action. Sag or pre-load will be adjusted with the preload adjusters
Compression
Compression dampening is an adjustment to the valving that will increase or decrease the speed at which the suspension component will compress. The compression circuits job is to “control” the spring when the wheel hits a bump, you get on the brakes, land a wheelie, etc.


Rebound
Rebound is extremely important, rebound has a huge effect on how comfortable you feel on your bike. The rebound circuit controls the suspension as it is trying to spring back after the wheel has hit a bump, you let off the brakes, etc. The first thing you need to know to get your head around the concept of rebound is to never ever refer to it has hard or soft. From this point on you are only allowed to refer to rebound settings as fast or slow. Do not forget this!

1. Setting Chassis Geometry

•   To see the appropriate settings, click on the corresponding model numbers: <deleted non-functioning links - MM>

2. Setting Sag: Forks

•   Back out the compression and rebound adjusters all the way out counter clockwise. You are doing this to free up the components so it's easier to set the sag. You may want to write them down.
•   You and one of your friends (we will call him Bob) should grab the handlebars and lift the front of the motorcycle until the wheel is not touching the floor. Your second friend (we will call him Neil) will measure the distance from the bottom of the fork seal to the bottom of the slider where it meets the fork foot. Have Neil do all of your measuring for consistency. The distance between the two points will most likely be 124mm. Write this measurement down, it is your “unloaded” measurement (measurement A). You will be calculating all of your sag measurements off of this number…so get it right. It's supposed to be a constant, not a variable.
•   With Bob holding the motorcycle by the tail so you do not fall over, mount the bike and assume the riding position (head down feet on the pegs). Bounce up and down a few times to settle the suspension.
•   Have Neil pull up on the triple clamps a bit and let them go. Take a measurement (measurement B).
•   Next have Neil push down on the triple clamps and then let it go. Take a fork measurement (measurement C).
•   The reason you are taking the push down and pull up measurements is to calculate actual sag. All forks have stiction, which is the friction on the fork slider. The stiction will stop the forks short of their actual sag, so you need to account for this. By taking two measurements (one pushing, one pulling) and averaging them you will get your actual sag point. Bikes with the pretty gold sliders will have less stiction than the non treated ones…that's the point of the gold (sorry to disappoint all you pimps out there)
•   To calculate rider sag use this formula A- (B+C) X 0.5 I think that's right, if it's not blame public skool. But on a basic level it means add B and C together, divide by two and then subtract A
•   If your rider sag is less than 35mm, remove fork preload by turning the preload adjuster counter clockwise. If you rider sag is more than 35mm, add preload by turning the preload adjuster clockwise. Adjust and re-measure until you have 35mm of rider sag.

3. Setting Sag: Shock

•   Install your ride height tool in the frame. If you do not have a ride height tool place a small piece of tape directly above the rear axle on the tail and use this as your upper measuring reference point. You and Bob will then lift the back of the motorcycle, by the footpegs or front of the subframe where it bolts to the frame until the rear wheel is off of the ground. Do not lift by the rear of the subframe, you will flex the subframe and get an incorrect measurement. Measure the distance between the mark on the tail and the top of the axle nut. Write the measurement down, it is your rear “unloaded” measurement (measurement D). You will be calculating all of your sag measurements off of this number…so get it right. It's supposed to be a constant, not a variable.
•   With Bob holding the motorcycle by the front fairing so you do not fall over, mount the bike and assume the riding position (head down feet on the pegs). Bounce up and down a few times to settle the suspension.
•   Have Neil pull up on the subframe (where it mounts to the frame) a bit and let it go. Take a measurement (measurement E).
•   Next have Neil push down on the seat and then let it go. Take a measurement (measurement F).
•   The reason you are taking the push down and pull up measurements is to calculate actual sag. All shocks have stiction, which is the friction on the shock shaft. The stiction will stop the shock short of their actual sag, so you need to account for this. By taking two measurements (one pushing, one pulling) and averaging them you will get your actual sag point. Shocks will have less stiction than forks though.
•   To calculate rider sag use this formula D- (E+F) X 0.5 But on a basic level it means add E and F together, divide by two and then subtract D
•   If your rider sag is less than 30mm, remove shock preload by turning the preload adjuster rings (the two rings that are holding the spring in, the best way to adjust them is with a drift and a hammer) counter clockwise (as if you were looking down from the top of the shock). If you rider sag is more than 30mm, add preload by turning the preload rings clockwise. Adjust and re-measure until you have 30mm of rider sag.

4. Setting Compression: Forks

•   Well, this is going to sound a bit vague, but there is no really good way to set the compression in the pits on your forks without having a ton of experience with it. But we can ballpark it and then test for it once you are riding. Most Ducatis come with very stiff compression circuits, so this makes it pretty easy to find a starting point.
•   Run the compression adjuster full soft (pretend you are laying on your back looking up at the bottom of the fork and turn the adjuster counterclockwise, or out, to soften the compression). The adjuster is located on the bottom, or to be more specific in the bottom of the fork foot. You will need to run a standard screw driver from the bottom of the fork foot up through the axle. It's kind of a PITA but if you have the right size screw driver it's not too bad.
5. Setting Rebound: Forks
•   Your rebound adjuster (located on the top of the fork, adjust with a standard screwdriver) should be all the way out from when you adjusted your sag. If it is not run the adjuster all the way out counterclockwise. I think this will be a good time to explain how to correctly “view” the rebound circuit. Rebound is never “hard” or “soft”. It will only be refereed to as “fast” or “slow” from now on. This will help you understand what the rebound is doing. Spinning the adjuster out or counterclockwise will make the forks rebound faster. Spinning the rebound adjuster in or clockwise will make them slower.
•   So here you are with your forks as “fast” as they will go. To get an idea of what I am taking about bounce the front end of the bike by holding on to the handlebars, applying the front brake and quickly pushing the front end of the bike down. When the forks rebound you need to get neutral on the bars. Do not pull up on the bars or put weight on them when it is trying to rebound. All you really want to do is provide enough input to keep the bike from falling over. Practice this a few thousand times until you get it just right. What you are looking for is a situation where the forks can rebound with a minimum of input from you.
•   Now that you are the “master of the bounce” you can start tuning the forks. With the rebound adjuster full fast bounce the front end. What happened? Did it rebound back really fast and take a couple of seconds to settle? Now run the rebound adjuster all the way in clockwise (do not run it in hard you will seat the needle and cause all sorts of problems). Bounce the front end again. What happened? Did it take for ever for the forks to rebound back to full extension? Sure did. You have just seen the difference between fast and slow rebound in a set of forks.
•   Run the rebound all the way out (fast) on the forks again. To set the rebound you need to start from all the way fast.
•   Bounce the front end; see how it rebounds back past the sag point (the point where the bike sits on its own weight) and then settles down? This is not what you want. You want the forks to rebound right up to the sag point without going past and settling. But here is the catch; you want them to rebound to the sag point without being too slow. The method for finding the right spot is to bounce the front end, check, add a click, bounce the front end, check……..until you get the front end too just come up to the sag point without going past. When you have the front end rebounding right to the sag point, speed it up one click just to check your work. If speeding it up the one click lets the forks rebound past the sag point just a touch you had it right. Add back the click you took out and you are done. Above all you are looking for the rebound circuit to control the springs in the forks. You will know it when you see it.


 
6. Setting Compression: Shock

•   Once you have set the compression and rebound on the forks you can do the shock. Above all you are looking for a balance from front to rear, so what you are going to do is use the setting on the front as a gage for setting up the rear.
•   Get the bike off the stands and stand next to it with your hands on the gas cap. Have a friend stand back from the bike so they can observe the entire bike front and rear.
•   Push down sharply on the gas cap with both hands as hard as you can and let the bike rebound with no interference (like when you did the forks but this is for the whole bike). You may want someone else standing there to catch the bike when you throw it at them by mistake. It will take you a few tries to get this right.
•   What you are looking for is the front and rear of the bike to go up and down at the same time. You just set up the front so what you want to do is even up the rear. If the rear is going down slower than the front remove some compression from the shock by turning the compression adjuster counterclockwise. Turn it clockwise to add more compression if the shock is going down faster than the front. The adjuster is on the remote reservoir on the shock. On Showa shocks it is a standard screwdriver on Ohlins it is a black knob you turn with your fingers.
•   You are done adjusting the compression on the shock when the front and rear are going down at the same rate/time.

7. Setting Rebound: Shock

•   Push down on the gas cap and have your friend watch the bike again.
•   You are looking for the rear to rebound at the same rate as the front.
•   If it is to fast slow the shocks rebound down by turning the rebound adjuster clockwise. The rebound adjuster is located at the base of the shock shaft. On Showa shocks it is a standard screwdriver and on Ohlins shocks it is a black knob that goes around the shock shaft. When adjusting the Ohlins shock make sure you are pretending you are on your back looking up at the base of the shock to make sure you get the directions right (Clockwise and counterclockwise)


8. Checking Your Work

•   Checking your work is pretty simple. Get the bike up off the stands again and push on the gas cap with a friend watching. The bike should compress and rebound evenly front and rear. If it does you are ready to ride. If not go back and make the proper adjustments.

Tuning
Ahh tuning, here are a few simple steps to getting you bike dialed in that next level. At this point I need to tell you that you are pretty much on your own. There is a lot of “feel” involved in getting your bike set up for you, and it's impossible for me to get it down on paper. The biggest thing I can tell you is do not be afraid to think outside the box. If you start clicking this and clicking that and the bike works perfectly you have a good set up for you. Don't be worried when you bounce your bike and the front and rear are not even. The “even” set up is a great starting point, not the rule of thumb. What follows are a few steps I use to tune my forks in and then a lot of “if its doing this, do that” bullets. Keep these things in mind:
•   Have fun
•   Record your changes
•   Make one change at a time
•   If you make a change and do not understand what it did, don't do another until you do.
•   Think outside the box, there is no right
•   Test, test, test, test

Tuning Forks

•   Put a zip tie around one of the fork sliders. Go ride the bike…. hard . If you do not bottom the zip tie remove one turn of preload, go ride. Repeat as necessary. It does not matter if you end up with 40mm of sag in the front. You need to use all of your travel.
•   If your forks are bottoming out the first time you ride it, add some compression. You never want to add preload and have less than 35mm of sag.
•   If when you grab the brakes the front end dives dramatically and upsets the rear end, add some compression to the forks. But keep in mind if you are mashing the brakes on you will upset any set of forks, so brake smoothly.
•   If you end up adding a bunch of compression make sure you bounce the bike to check the balance from front to rear. It can be a bit out of balance but not a ton.
•   If the forks take a second to settle after you let of the brakes and you are tipping into a turn, slow the rebound down 1 click.

Tuning the shock

•   If the rear end does the Ben Bostrom death weave while on the brakes speed up the rebound.
•   If the rear end goes grip slide, grip slide. Add compression

Checking if you have the correct springs

•   Once you have set the sag on your bike you can check if you have the correct springs.
•   Measure the free sag of the front and rear of the bike. Free sag is the sag the bike has under its own weight, without you on it. Your free sag should be 15-30% of the rider sag number. For example if your shock sag is 30mm with you on it you should have 5-10mm of free sag. If you have lets say 0mm of free sag your spring is too soft. If you have 15mm of free sag your spring is too stiff. Same goes for the forks.

Random thoughts

•   If you use something like a subframe or tail as a measuring point for sag make sure that it does not flex or move, this will screw up your measurements.
•   Check your chain tension. I have seen a lot of bikes where the chain was so tight that it limited the rear shocks travel. Obviously this is a big problem for the suspension but the biggest problem is the output bearing on your bike will get destroyed. So how do you know if your chain is adjusted correctly you ask? Well a loose chain is a happy chain, if it is not falling off its tight enough. We run ours sloppy loose

Damn, good stuff! [thumbsup] I weaseled on my Monster and had an Ohlins shock and Ohlins guts installed in the forks by AMS at the 600 mile check. Added the Ohlins steering damper (per Lisa's recommendation [thumbsup]) and it all transformed the bike. It became what I thought it could be. No SBK, just a great nakid bike that didn't do anything real nasty handling wise. We all can't ride like Jester on a bone stock Monster S2R1K. Some of us need a whole lot of help... like me. [bang] [laugh]

Great stuff here! Thanks for all of the replies.  Randy at motopia said something about respringing the forks since mine arent adjustable, but the cost might outweigh the benefits.  You said it's not very expensive to have this done?  Should I just look at replacing my forks totally?

No, don't consider fork replacement! Way too much $$$. I meant that Randy or a shop would be able to help set the bike up IF the suspension was adjustable enough to get it where you need it. Again, is the weight difference between riders that much? As in, what is it doing (or not doing) that makes you feel like it's not right for you? Sorry, absolutely no offense intended, but I don't know how many years you have been riding to get a fix on your diagnostic abilities. I've been riding for 45 years and sometimes I get it wrong... OK, lots of times! :P

Re-springing the forks isn't that expensive, nor is re-springing the shock... if necessary. Sounds like someone needs to see you on the bike, check the sag, talk to you about your riding style and formulate a plan of attack to make you feel more comfortable. It can be money well spent! Again, it's limited what you can do to a 695. Still, things can definitely be achieved to make you happy! [thumbsup] Don't give up or throw in the towel due to limited adjustments. It's still a great bike! [moto] Think of it as a project in making you more happy. No money is ever wasted in that endeavor. [clap]

I'm not an expert by any means, but after riding a buddies bike who is close to my weight, I noticed how soft and squishy by suspension felt in contrast.  Like rolling over bumps and what not it feels like the whole bike has too much give.  Going around corners it feels "squishy" I can't really explain it.  It just doesn't feel as sharp or stable is what I'm getting at.  I would like to say maybe it was just the nature of the bike, but I've seen what good riders can do on these things on youtube so that can't be it lol.  I have an appt with Randy at Motopia though so I guess I'll start there!

Don't get sucked up into youtube videos of what people can do on 695s. That's not you or me. It could be a first time rider all the way to Troy Bayliss on those vids. You are all that counts. Just focus on getting your 695 set up the way you like it. I know George's bike... it's a really good one with lots of great mods. Great buy! Just realize that it is either the bike set up or you. One of those things (or both) needs to change to make it right. Sometimes it cheaper for you to change! [laugh] [bacon] [popcorn]

It looks like about a 30lb weight difference. The way you describe it, it definitely seems much "softer" for you than it was for me.

It looks like you're on the right track by starting with working with what you have as far as equipment. I know that John had a 695 before his s2r1k and is up around your size. Maybe he'll chime in. 

Just out of curiosity, what's the bike you are using for comparison?

You need to set the sag. This really should be mandatory for dealers to include for free before letting a person leave with a new bike, because its really that important. If adjusting the preload can't get you in the appropriate sag range, then its time to respring. People that mess with the valve adjustments to compensate for too weak springs are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If your bike is "squishy" or feels a bit like it wallows in the turns, its because your bike is essentially 'sinking' in the suspension more than it should. You are outside the 'optimum' working range for your suspenders. (that could be taken out of context).

to give you some idea of the difference that can be had, prior to messing with the suspension on my bike (i'm a large mammal), there were turns back home that gave me an adrenaline rush at the posted speed limit. After adjustment, I'd still ride at the adrenaline rush pace, but look down to find I was going much faster, but my sense of speed was no different. Confidence inspiring, really.

The fork 'change' is far too expensive to recommend. Well, buying 'new' forks, that is. Buying second hand sbk forks isn't too bad. The shock and fork both should be adjusted to make sure that when you are on the bike, it will be in the optimum range to absorb bumps and gaps, and respond to braking/throttle.

I have done the RaceTech valve and spring to my front end. Works "well"

I have an Ohlins 68mm Damper mounted under my lower triple laterally using a billet mount from Motowheels. Works 'very well' (though Stuart hates the location and thinks if I brake like a maniac that it could push into the fender... though its never touched, so he's decided he is just being a risk-adverse mechanic) I would like to replace it with a damper with a longer stroke, since the stroke of this damper doesn't quite cover stop-to-stop.

I have a Penske 8983 with remote reservoir. It works fantastically. I opted for a couple plus features, like a torrington bearing, adjustible preload collars, etc as well when I got it so that adjusting the preload would be easier. It was this or the Ohlins and I called around and talked to several shops. Those that sold only Ohlins told me everything else was crap. Those that sold multiple brands talked about pluses and minuses of each. I went with Traxxion Dynamics who sold both Ohlins and Penske and recommended the Penske (for me).

So I put some money into the suspension, but not a ton really. The biggest difference came from the correct spring #'s, preload adjustments to set the sag, and lastly: making sure all the important bolts were torqued to the correct number (motor mount bolts, suspension arc, etc) - since my bike has a few years and a few miles on it.

Good informative reply. [thumbsup] Do all my Ohlins stuff through Dan Kyle. Great guy and a God of suspension info. Whoever you find that leads you to the light of suspension heaven is well worth the trip and money. I have thrown a s#@t load of money at engine crap, exhausts, etc. on my bikes and honestly none of it has ever equaled $$ spent on good tires and suspension. Ever. Any person who knows anything will back that up. [thumbsup]

Again thank you for all of the replies.  The bike I used for comparison was a yamaha FZ1.  I'm not knocking the bike at all, I just wanted to find the optimum set up for me. 

thats like comparing a Honda Civic to a BMW M3.......

The FZ1 shares many parts with the R1.... It also comes with a fully adjustable suspension and a very rigid frame and swingarm

The 695 (like the Civic) is a fun, sporty, economical motocycle....  The FZ1 is a monster.....  (different than a "Monster")

I don't know what year the FZ1 was, so I just picked a review from 2006

"The stiffer chassis bolts to an inverted fork with an uncommon damping adjustment system that's been used in the racing world. One fork leg controls the rebound damping and the other controls compression damping. Yamaha says if it works on Valentino Rossi's M1 MotoGP bike, it'll work on your FZ1, too, and who am I to argue? It does have the benefit of keeping adjustments simple.

The other change Yamaha made to inject some more sport into the FZ1 is the new engine, taken straight from the YZF-R1 sportbike with only a few modifications. Changes to the R1 engine were limited mostly to different cam profiles and valve timing to increase low- and mid-range power, and a heavier crankshaft."

How'd it go?