Ducati Monster Forum

I consider myself a safe rider.

Many say they are safe riders, but sometimes I doubt they know what that really means.

This does not just pertain to wearing safety gear.

This is not just about watching out for the police.

That means I don't believe riding extremely hard on any public streets or highways is ever a good idea  or think a "more experienced" rider who has been riding longer than I have or has more knowledge of motorcycles is always a safer rider than I am and and will avoid trying to keep with anyone who is riding beyond my capabilties or what I consider as safe.

I also am not arrogant and get stupid around any car or truck and will give them the right-of-way.
The excuse of "I had the right-of-of way"  doesn't mean diddly crap if you end up dead.
Being safe sometimes requires being humble and give the other person the right-of-way even if you think they are an a$$hole driver.

Too many riders say "You are invisable", yet they ride in a manner around vehicles which increases that invisabilty, then they have the audacity to say "Those damn cagers!"
I agree that there are many stupid drivers out there, but there are equally as many stupid motorcyclists and I never assume the cager is the one always at fault.

If you go out and plan to "drag some knee" on some canyon twisties...guess what, you aren't a safe rider even if you are wearing full gear.

Riding wheelies down the highway.  Yeah!, cool huh?   Not a safe rider.

The excuse of "My motorcycle is made to be rode hard and fast and I am willing to take  some risk to have some extra fun" may be your opinion, but defies any sense of saying you are ever a safe rider.

"What sense does it make to have a fast motorcycle and never ride it to it's limit?"
Probably the same reason why you don't see every car on the road driving at 150mph or even faster even if they are designed to do so.
Even people with the fastest sport cars never ride it as fast as it can. So what makes anyone think riding a fast sportbike requires having to ride hard and fast?
I saw a beautiful Lamborghini Diablo on the highway not too long ago. Was the driver going 200mph because his car could?  No he was doing the speed limit of 55-65mph. I assume he was enjoying that ride even without going fast.  I know I would.

I see and hear so much hypocrisy when it comes to riders saying they are safe, but they are really just the opposite.

I used to ride with a group lead by this one guy who has been in two bad accidents on his motorcycle in which all his buddies automatically said it was the "cager's fault"  Knowing how aggressive this guy rode I wouldn't doubt it was always his fault and I stopped riding with him and that group as I didn't feel safe around such a bad influence.  
This guy's idea of a safe and laid back ride was doing 90mph around tight corners and required always looking for cops because  following him could guarantee a criminal speeding ticket...but you know, he preached safety before every ride.  [roll]
So now I learn that this same "safe rider" gets into another accident, of course it was the "cager's fault" according to him, and his injuries were so bad, he had to stop riding.  Yeeaah, not someone I trust in the safety department or believe an ounce of what he says.
I also have learned that another so-called "safe rider" from this group dies after losing control of his motorcycle going too fast around some corner.  Yes, he was another rider I knew was truly an aggressive rider more than a "safe rider"
These incidents are unfortunate, but not unexpected after knowing how truly unsafe these riders were

I may not be the rider which other riders would consider as extreme and fun as they may like to ride, but then I never crashed on any motorcycle and that is all that matters to me.

There is already an immediate danger of riding a motorcycle, however that doesn't mean riding a motorcycle needs to be totally avoided, but many take it to a suicidal level because they can't control their level of enjoyment of riding motorcycle or have any respect for it.

How often do you check your tire pressure?
How often do you change your brake & clutch fluid?
How often do you change your brake pads?
How often do you check your chain tension?
How often do you check your tire wear?
How often do you replace your helmet?
How often do you exceed the speed limit?
How often do you not come to a dead stop at a stop sign?
Have you got a reflective or very brightly colored helmet?
Do you wear full gear which is high visibility?
Which side of the lane do you use when passing cars?
Have you done any training?
Have you done a track day?
Do you know statistically where the most risk comes from when riding?
etc. etc.

If you can answer all of these questions correctly then maybe you are the exception & are 100% safe at all times.

It's all shades of gray. No one is perfect & no one is a 100% safe driver/rider because we're all human. Holding people to an unrealistic standard is bound to have them fail.

I would say that I spend the bulk of my riding attempting to be safe but I know when I hit certain roads that I'm going to go fast and that may not be safe but I make this choice knowing that it isn't. I inform people I'm riding with that they should go their own speed & to be safe for themselves.

I've crashed 3 times:
1. Oil & new rain - lost the front
2. Cold day = cold road - lowside
3. Run off the road by a dump truck

Does that mean I'm not safe?

By the definition of "safe" I would say you are not. Your choice of going fast can be fatal to someone else as well. I also make the exact same choice as you from time to time and in those cases I am not a safe rider either. I think the OP had a problem with people who say they are safe riders then they go and do stupid (very unsafe) things.   

But the extent of the argument was what I had issue with. Boiling it down, if I choose to do one unsafe thing a month, does that mean I'm an unsafe rider? 1 per year? What's the definition of unsafe? Passing on double yellows when you're stuck behind a farm vehicle doing 30mph under the speed limit? Accelerating to 15 over the speed limit to avoid being next to a car when it's merging onto the freeway?

The definition of what's safe, reasonably safe & extremely unsafe are subjective. The OP doesn't seem to think that someone who lights it up on twisties is a safe rider. I was posing the questions I did to find out what the OP felt was the distinction between something they believe is ok but isn't actually safe.

I also find the distinct lack of sympathy for riders doing what the large majority of us do as kind of off putting.

Evil Steve,  are you trying to defend riders for riding like idiots?

Why do you try to shift the point of people riding like idiots to if they wear hi-visabilty gear and how old their helmet is? If I wear dark colored gear while otherwise riding in a safe manner, does that make me an unsafe  rider compared to a guy riding his bike at 130mph wearing flourecent orange?  Your argument fails there sir.

Your questions of maintaining your bike and having training are good points to safety and yes, I do properly maintain my bike, fluids, air pressure, etc and took a few extra riding lessons and wear gear that is in good condition. Some dark colored, some high-vis.  My helmet is less than a year old. The one before that was less than 3 years.

Did I ever say I was an expert rider?  NO. Which is good reason why I am extra careful and doesn't make me overconfident like some adrenaline junkies.

As far as your questions:

I don't know. You tell me. Could you have rode slower after it rained or on that cold day?  Maybe decide not to ride at all?

If you were run off by the road by a dump truck, that could happened and I never said it was your fault, because I don't know you or what type of rider you are.
But I do know riders who will avoid the details of saying that dump truck was going too slow for them, they are impatient  and attempted a high speed pass in the trucker's blind spot, the trucker doesn't see the motorcycle and ***crash***.
Some bikers out there sometimes avoid those little minor details of the actual incident that will otherwise reveal the truth.

So if the majority jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

That wouldn't get my sympathy, but I'd call it as thinning out the herd.

Seems like what could be a thread about trying to define what it means to ride safe on public roads, as the thread title says (but is very hard to define IMHO), will easily degrade to a bunch of personal attacks by all parties.

Everyone has their own idea of what is "safe", has their own boundaries of percieved risk, and makes their own decisions about how much risk to take in any given situation.  I've know riders who I see do things I would NEVER do on a bike, but also take overly extreme caution in situations I feel perfectly safe in.  Some people are fine taking it to the limit on a track and ride like grandmas on the street. 

My point is it takes all kinds.  The discussion could be interesting.  Personal attacks and gross generalizations about people's riding decisions are not interesting.

I'm not defending people riding like idiots, I'm trying to point out that your perception of what's safe & what isn't safe is not an objective line in the sand that all must adhere to.

The example of high-viz gear is a safety issue, your visibility to other motorists is greatly affected by what you wear. You don't wear high-viz gear so on the face of it your argument says that you're not a safe rider. I also don't wear high-viz gear.

Do you check your air pressure before each ride? Do you have an air pump in your garage? Do you do all these things before each ride? I don't but I check frequently. How often is frequently? I couldn't tell you.

The specifics of my post were meant to make the point that what is safe & what isn't is relative to a lot of different things. Your argument seemed to me to be that anyone who rides unsafely deserves what they get. This a flawed argument entirely because it's based on the premise that you can judge what is safe. It's also IMO a poor conclusion because you suggest that a person going down in unknown circumstances who had (in your opinion) been riding unsafely in the past also gets what they deserve. Just because someone rides in a manner that you feel is idiotic at one point doesn't mean that any future accident is automatically their fault.

Your expertise in this argument isn't relevant.

My crashes were all my fault in some way or another.
1. Rode through rain for an hour & got to a town where it had just started raining (but I didn't click in time that this was the case). I was doing the speed limit & attempting to make a right hand turn onto a side street but failed. I could have been going slower and that may have helped. The parking lot (I was visiting a friend who lived on this street) had just been repaved & a lot of (oily) trucks had been coming & going.

2. Road was cold, I'd been riding through some twisties & everything seemed fine for the other corners I'd been on, both left & right, but making this left hander, the front went away. I was going under the speed limit at the time & it was very tight corner. I was using Dunlop Qualifiers (properly broken in) at the time which don't have the best reputation for feedback so maybe that was contributory.

3. It's in the crashes thread if you're interested in the details but I was traveling down a country lane with no center divider going about 5 over the speed limit. I was already in the right hand side of my lane (actually to the far right of the road) to make sure I gave people coming the other way space. Going around the blind left hander, I slowed down and found a dump truck coming in the other direction in the middle of the lane going at least as fast as I was. I had about 4ft (n.b. not wide enough for a car) either side of the truck to avoid being squished. I avoided the truck but target fixated on the side of the road & crashed.

Cutting to the chase - your arguments are very simplistic & pretty callous. You don't seem to be willing to accept shades of gray where there are plenty & you don't seem to want to allow people more than one personality characteristic once you've decided they're not safe. By your definition, I'm not safe, nor are any of the people I ride with or have ridden with. Does this mean we're wheelying everywhere & making really poor choices? No. Does this mean we deserve no sympathy if something goes wrong? In your book we don't deserve any, in my book it depends on the circumstances.

For the record, the bridge argument is completely flawed and illogical.

Safe to you is not safe to me, or safe to another person.

Riding a motorcycle is not safe to begin with. But you take precautions to ensure your maximum safety within your specified limits, otherwise you would not ride a motorcycle to begin with.

In fact, this is true for every single thing anyone will ever do in their life.

Regarding your first post, let me ask you a few questions based on it...

Since you believe you are safe, do you think you will never crash?

I know you said, "...always a safer rider..." But do you at least acknowledge that being more experienced, makes you a safer rider? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that a more experienced rider is more in control? If yes, do you at least acknowledge that the ideal of being in control has a SAFE limit? If yes, can that safe limit not conform to your idea of safe?

Define what risk is considered unsafe. you said riding fast around a corner.
Who defines what fast is?
How does the speed limit justify itself?
If the speed limit around a corner is 30mph. Is it unsafe to take it at 50mph?
Is it unsafe to take it at 30mph?
What if the guy at 50mph is experienced enough to take it at 50mph and crashes? Is he unsafe?
What if the guy at 20mph is not experienced enough and crashes? Is he unsafe?
 
Can you put a pin on the point where it is considered suicidal?


Now, let me get to my point of view. I thought i was a fairly safe rider. I would ride within my limits. This year alone, my limits went up dramatically since I spent a lot of time getting to know my bike and what it is capable of and what I am capable of. So my idea of safe changed. What was safe to me at 30mph, is now safe to me at 40mph because I was confident in my ability and my motorcycles capability. However after riding with a different group of people, I saw what their idea of safe was. it was drastically different from what i called safe. I'm young, but I like to think im pretty mold-able so I decided to learn from these people and adopt their level of safe (which for the record, what i THOUGHT was safe for me, was actually very dangerous)for a day. 5 minutes into adopting their idea of being safer, I crashed. As stupid as the crash was, it happened.

I could go on all day with the what ifs. But the end result was, i was taking it very safe, yet it was still dangerous going down that road.

Moral of the story? The only baseline that exists in safety, is in your head, and regardless of what you consider as safe. It's never safe enough when something bad happens. You just have to accept what you are willing to risk.

You cant say someone is lying if they believe it to be true, that's what i'm ultimately trying to get to.

Putting in my 2 pennies worth.
 
I feel a more important question than "Are you a safe rider?" is "Are you an aware rider?". Regardless of the situation you find yourself in as a motorcyclist on a public road, your awareness is what is going to make the difference when S hits the fan. We can sit here and debate all day what constitutes "safe" but I think its useless in the end.

I always make a joke that, "a squid is anyone who rides more recklessly than I do." This is to point out the fact that we all set our own limits and often look down on those that might be outside these limits. An example would be "I do X,Y and Z therefore I am a safe rider. You do X but not Y and Z so you are not safe."

Really, it is a relative thing. For instance, most people would give the advice that if you want to drag knee and go fast, ride on the track. I completely agree with this but, if I went to the track and rode outside of my comfort and skill level, I would not be riding in a safe manner. The expert class racer who is riding much faster than me, on the other hand, should not be considered unsafe just because he is going faster.

And finally to the OP. Hell yes, a newbie rider should ride slow. They have enough to pay attention to as it is. I will have to say though, experience on a motorcycle is worth more than you might think and just because you haven't crashed doesn't make you safer than those that have. Go find some wood to knock on by the way.

I'd agree with you except in the case where experience leads to complacency.

Im trying to understand how you use the word (im not that good with words). Do you mean experience will cause you to be less focused on things that are more dangerous then they seem?

----not directed to any one in particular----

Is dragging knee on the street dangerous?

a) yes, because you are going too fast
b) no, because if you know how to do it, its safe.
c) It depends on the situation.

Yes, that's exactly it.  It doesn't happen to everyone, but consider the difference between someone learning to drive, white-knuckling the wheel, looking about 20 times in each direction before pulling out, and someone who has been driving long enough without any incident that they feel it's ok to text, or read the newspaper, or put on makeup, or shave in the car, barely looking up.   Is the more experienced driver safer?

A bit of an extreme example, just using it as an illustration.

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Good point to motorcycles being dangerous by nature. If you want to be safe (safer), you should eliminate riding altogether, but we all recognize the risk, accept the risk, and take steps to make it safer. It's never going to be 100% safe, there's always the possiblilty of an accident, riders fault or not so we wear proper gear. If you don't, then maybe you're an idiot, but as already mentioned, it's all relative. Being in the military, I have to always wear bright or reflective clothing, and a whole list of other stuff that even I think is stupid sometimes, but it's all relative about what's safe or idiotic.

You can drag a knee going under the speed limit on some corners (depending on the radius), so technically it isn't illegal in this instance. Does that make it safe? It depends would be my answer and it depends on a lot of things.

I think we could all point to certain actions and say that they were unsafe (100mph wheelies through traffic on a freeway) but with the exception of some extreme examples, most actions are relatively more or less safe depending on the circumstances, the person doing them, the motorcycle they're riding and the condition of that motorcycle.

On my (old) bike, on a warm day, with my tires warmed up, on a particular road I know, I can drag a knee going under the speed limit. On another day with colder temperatures, different tires,  different state of mind perhaps, I lost the front. What makes this activity safe or unsafe? Let's just say I'm talking about a left hander (in the US so we're riding on the right hand side of the road) and I'm not cutting the corner (such bad form). Do I know my bike well enough to know how much extra lean I had after I'd touched down? Had I been trained to adjust my line in a lean? Brake in a lean? If we're not talking about me but a professional road racer (which I'm distinctly not!). What if I'd never been on that road before?

Another example to consider is lane splitting. Is it any less or more safe in CA to split than it is anywhere else? I remember when I first split it was pretty scary & seemed unsafe but if done regularly, it is and also seems more safe. I don't split anymore but mostly because it pisses people off & isn't legal here in NY. As a new rider the perception would probably be that splitting isn't safe, as a more experienced rider you may feel that it's safe or maybe not. It depends on experience, mindset, opinion, skill, the bike you're riding and the place you live (how do people react).

Currency is a consideration when riding too, I don't ride as much as I used to & as such my skills aren't as practiced as they were. I need to slow down (and have) because what was once safe (enough) for me now isn't.

Bottom line: what is safe is subjective & depends on a lot of variables that don't stay the same.

This thread sounds kinda like trolling. If nothing else, I would expect to see it on a cruiser board rather than a forum dedicated to sportbikes. Maybe a Yamaha Star forum?

Pennyrobber, I totally agree.

Wow, this is quite a thread.  Riding is dangerous.  I watched my friend crash yesterday.  Coming into a left turn, he got target fixated on the outside of the curve and bumped up the curb into the grass and went down.  We were only going about 30mph.  This is the second time he has gone off the road on the outside of the turn.  I don't know what to say about it...it sucked watching it happen in my vibrating rear view mirror.  But it doesn't change anything...I am still going to ride, he is still going to ride, but we both lived and learned (he with more consequences than myself).  I don't know if it's right to decide for yourself or anyone else if they are safe rider.  Riding is dangerous.  I do a lot of fishing and that can be dangerous, too, but I still do it.  I'm having trouble deducing the point of this conversation, but I do sense and share the confusing emotions about the safety of riding as it pertains to the decisions of the rider.  I'm not sure if anything real could be accomplished in 100 pages of ranting...other than emotional venting. 

Your friend needs to go take a class - Lee Parks, or a track school. You can run off the road at 30 & be fine or he could run off the road at 30 & end up badly injured or worse. Not to be taken lightly.

Funny you mention that, he is going to a class this weekend.  He would have already taken the class, but some kind of postponement has pushed it back to now.

Glad to hear it.  [thumbsup]

Interesting thread. 

Something to think about - Your (and mine) "personal" choice to ride the way we want also puts the lives of others in danger.  Not the same extent as taking your 911 up to 150, losing control and taking out a mini van full of handicapped orphaned school children but you could cause a car to swerve off the road by simply scaring the crap out of them.  How will you feel when a kid in the back seat that climbed out of their child seat dies because of it? 

There is a reason there are speed limits and laws.  Choose to break them all you want but at the end of the day, your choice to ride fast is irresponsible.  Then again being responsible can be boring.

Be safe and think of others, that should be enough  [beer]

, but then I never crashed on any motorcycle and that is all that matters to me.

Well keep ridin' Doood and you will.

Heck I crash five times in one year, but was never going much over the speed limit by the time I hit the pavement.  Thank God, never hit anything immovable at speed.  [bow_down]

Down in the flat lands I pretty much don't do much hooliganing, but up on the Mountain it's a little different.  I've been trying to slow down a little since I got my new Titanium hip.

To each his/her own I guess.

LA

Doesn't that just mean you are more indestructible?


Speed limit laws can have its own thread. I dont think they should exist on highways. I also dont think it should be so easy to get a license.

My opinion that safe isn't quite the right word here.  I would use the word risk.  And all of the discussion is about recognizing and managing this risk.  For me, as a relatively new rider, it's mostly about developing riiding skills.  There are many things we have control over and many that we don't.  So work on the things we can and be ready for the things we can't.  That component residing between the ears is the big variable.  We like to think we are in control of it but often not - at least speaking for myself.

My closest call came in a construction zone at about 40MPH when a dump truck pulled out from the right and was doing a U turn right in front of me - a wall of steel.  My MSF training kicked in and I grabbed everything.  The rear skidded a little right, then a little left, I looked up and the truck was gone, I let go and continued on.  But a lot of thoughts in those couple of seconds.  Glad I was on a Ducati and not something slow to brake.

This thread is great, and some interesting opinions. But Ill keep this one short for once...

I am not a safe rider....

According to the original poster.

I got my bike to have fun, and that's what I do with it, I don't defend the way I ride and quite frankly on most occasions I'd be considered quite placid, turtle-ish even. But then theres those twisties, and those hill climbs....

I started riding for fun, perhaps that's what needs to be kept in mind when preaching about how unsafe I am. I did three months of one on one training before I went on the road, which also involved road craft, so I didn't hop straight on the bike and start acting like an arsehole, but none-the-less knowing the risks.....

I. still. have. fun. That's what it's about isn't it?

Whoa that WAS kinda long after all. Think I might take my unsafe-self out for a ride, cause I can deal with it.

What was all the training for then? ;)

I don't wear condoms and eat bacon.

Hehe... not sure but I hope it helps me on those unsafe rides of mine... Mostly I think it was cause I didn't want to break my nice bike!!!!!

I don't wear condoms when I eat bacon either!

PSA: The grease makes an excellent, and tasty lubricant.

the only way to be safe on public roads is to buy a track bike and stop riding on public roads.  Worked well for me.

That said, I rode on the street for probably 4 out of the 6 years I've been riding and never had a crash (plenty on the track, just none on the street).  I'm a whole other level of paranoid and tend to stick with slower bikes (air-cooled Ducs for example, fastest bike I ever owned was an 03 600RR).  I've never gotten a knee down on the street, though I did try when I first started riding, fortunately I grew out of that once I started doing trackdays.  Still have never in my life done an intentional wheelie.

Have you done a wheelie accidentally on purpose?

+1 for this thread. It was a good read, and a good reinforcer for me being a safer driver than I once was.

To me the key here is the word public.   Riding safe on public roads for an experienced rider means doing so in a way that is not putting other people at risk.    Riding safe on public roads for an inexperienced rider means doing so in a way that doesn't overwhelm your finite amount of concentration (more of which is taken up by simply operating the bike) such that you put others at risk; and here there is a bit more emphasis on minimizing personal risk too so as to lengthen riding career.

I like the difference posted earlier between "safe" and "risk". Riding a motorcycle is inherently an unsafe act, and nothing you or anybody else can do will change that fact. The amount of risk you take based on your skills and experience, and the conditions you are currently riding in changes every second.

The major difference I see is when your amount of risk changes from risk to yourself to risk to other people. I remember seeing a video online somewere when some asshat was doing a forever wheelie going way too fast and lost it, he caused a head on collision between two "cagers" during his little feat. Was his risk acceptable to him? maybe. Was it acceptable to the people he hurt because of it? No f'ing way.

Risk and safety go hand in hand. Maybe instead of saying Ride Safe People, we should be saying, Ride Less Risky People.

I thought I would try to speak to the title of the thread topic.
Many of you will already know what I'm talking about. This is aimed at newbies. Riding motorcycles is the best fun you can have with your clothes on. Period.

I'm a middle aged ex-club racer. A humble C-grader who never won. Nowdays I just do track days on my old race bike. I have really noticed that I have changed my approach to riding on public roads. Safety skills or risk assessment are a big part of my thinking now. I realise that sheer dumb luck played a big part of my previous safety strategy.

The more time I spent on the track, the more I realised that public roads required a different emphasis in my thinking and skill set. The track is a one dimensional and focused environment. It's got a purity of purpose compared to public roads.

On the track you focus on your task of getting around it as quickly as possible and when racing, ahead of everyone else. You are trying to defeat the track and other riders on it as they get in your way. Safety is something that other people are managing for you; race officials, flag marshals, medics, etc and there are rules to obey, but the objective is still to go as fast as possible. That is the main thing for you to concern yourself with. There are no U-turning cars, everyone is going the same direction and a nice run off area is cleared for you. In fact you have more chance of getting into trouble if you are not fast enough!

On public roads you are responsible for all those safety issues and have to manage them. Just you. You are pretty much on your own. There are no kind people with flags letting you know of oil or gravel on the road, if someone is about to overtake you or if there is danger around the corner. You are in charge of deciding how much of your attention is going to be invested in your safety and how much to riding fast and extending your skills. There is a whole skill set about keeping yourself and others safe, think of it as a two wheeled martial art.

I have noted that I now evaluate the kind of road I am riding and what kind of riding style is appropriate for that stretch of road. There are roads that I can't go fast on even though I am capable of doing so. It's almost like an internal rev limiter! I just know that riding as fast as I am capable of will get me killed if something or someone else goes wrong.

Let me explain, I can't set my turn point and corner speed unless I know the corner exit. I can't let go to do it anymore! If I don't know the road, I can't choose my corner entry point and corner speed unless I can see thru the corner or know it in my minds eye. On the track the corner might be blind, but that's ok if I know the track, because I know what happens next. It's memorised.

There is a road with no side roads or intersections, good vision through corners, it's smooth and I know its layout. It's like a racetrack unravelled. But it's not.The main dangers are oncoming traffic straying into your lane and gravel washed onto the road. If still have to keep plenty in reserve. My riding friends can't touch me there. They wonder why I'm so slow on other roads. It's relatively safe for me to go quick there, as long as I'm riding The Pace (keeping some in reserve).

My younger riding buddies have never raced and are slow on track days, but they are often faster than me on public roads. Let's put it in perspective..The speed with which they leave me for dead on public roads is actually slow on the track.

On four out of five occasions I am the one they leave behind as they tear away, but I have made a different decision to them about how the road should be ridden. It's because on those other roads I can't plan any safety contingencies for the unexpected. Those guys don't leave enough margin. I worry about them and they think I am an old fart when I talk about it. But age has nothing to do with it if you leave your safety in the hands of the unknown.

My A-grade racer mentor rarely rides on public roads. He is fast, fast enough to qualify for world superbikes. But he is cautious on the road and waits for the right time and place to show just some of his incredible skills. I love road riding but it requires a whole additional set of skills.

Who would like to discuss them?



   

Oh yeah. In relation to wearing a condom when eating bacon. SWINE FLU!!!! [puke]

Sometime last year a 60-ish (years old) fellow died in a cycle accident when he hit a deer(?) at night somewhere near the Grand Canyon.  I don't recall the details or his name, but I recall he was a highly respected MC safety expert and journalist.

IMHO, only reason he died is because he hit the deer while riding on a MC instead of while riding inside a Hummer.

In his case, safety had everything to do with his protective "gear" in the collision, that is, MC = virtually none; Hummer = a lot.

Was he unsafe?  I'd say no, just unlucky.  He was (probably subconsciously) playing the odds that he wouldn't encounter a large obstacle in the middle of the road.

For me, safety is just about getting the odds of an accident (fatal or otherwise) down to a level that can be tolerated, either by a rider or by the other motorists he/she will encounter on the road that day.

IMO, traffic lights, lines, speed limits, etc., exist less for safety as they do to keep the traffic flowing in a manageable way (otherwise, lane splitting wouldn't be legal).  Crossing the double-yellow to pass the farm vehicle is safe, I would say, as long as oncoming traffic wasn't forced to have to deal with the MC that crossed the line (that is, the MC doesn't create an emergency condition for other motorists).  Accelerating above the speed limit to avoid merging traffic that's ignoring a "yield" sign or trying to make the upcoming exit isn't unsafe as long as the other motorists around the MC aren't forced to take drastic action by the MC's move.  Riding 110 MPH on the turnpike/freeway/thruway where it's ramrod straight for three miles isn't unsafe unless there's an obstacle (e.g. abutment, parked car on the shoulder) that the MC/rider could strike if the MC/rider fell and slid out of control.

Riders wear helmets "in case" they fall off...otherwise I think helmets actually decrease riding safety 'cause they block fields-of-view that are otherwise clear.  Likewise, riders wear leathers, boots, and gloves "in case" they fall off, yet the risk of heat stroke goes way up during the summer when riding with all that "insulation" on...

The odds of an accident/injury can only be reduced/mimized - they can't be eliminated or reduced to zero...'cause anything can happen.

I'm not not doing wheelies

I am routinely the slowest in my group in the mountains because I do not allow myself to push it without being able to see a sufficient length of road ahead. I like bikes that are fun even going the speed limit (superbikes are track-only for me). There's something to be said for not always seeking an adrenaline rush on a motorcycle. Sometimes it's just fun to appreciate the little stuff.

Great post koko64. I find the same thing these days - probably moreso on the slow side as where I live there are very few roads I deem okay to play a bit on. It is funny that even at age 51 and with considerable track and fast group ride experience over more than 30 years, I still feel somewhat slighted when people I am riding with who don't know me well assume I am going as fast as I can, rather than as fast as I feel is reasonable in the circumstances. The latter being often very much slower than the former, and also often a lot slower than other people think is okay.

 [coffee]

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” George Carlin

I think you hit this perfectly, if you aren't putting other poeple at risk, as a rider you are always at risk, trying not to put anyone else or thier property at risk is the key I believe.  Riding within your abilities is important, recognizing the track is a safe place to test your max limits is safer. 

This has been a good dicussion thanks.