Ducati Monster Forum

Hey guys, been a long time. I wanted to post this and get your feedback for a couple of reasons. I trust you guys, mostly ;) AND you don't know the person I'm dealing with so I think you'll be more impartial.

I'm posting this because i want to make sure I'm not crazy and that I'm approaching a certain situation correctly. So bear with me for a sec and I'll lay out the whole story.

Firstly, this is not meant to speak ill of anyone. I personally think they guy I'm dealing with is a great person and I don't want him to be screwed just as I don't want to be screwed.

This all started in May when we bought a bike for my wife. It's a cool little '71 Honda CB100. The perfect size for my wife as her first bike. We bought this from a guy I know who runs a small business on the side selling vintage bikes. At the onset of this, I explained that I needed it to run well. It needed to be at least mostly reliable as she is still a little nervous and having it strand her somewhere would not be a great introduction into the world of motorcycles.

He assured me it would run like a top when he was done working on it, but he needed a few parts from overseas, etc. No problem. I was willing to wait a couple months. I paid him half down and agreed to pay the other half once it was finished. He had a rough idea of what it would cost him to get it running and i agreed to pay somewhere in that neighborhood when it was finished. Again, I trust the guy.

Three months later he drops it off. I pay him the rest of the money, a bit more than I thought it would be, but totally worth it for a fun little bike. It starts on the first kick and is a lot of fun to ride...for two blocks. I pulled up to a stop sign, pulled the brake and POP, the cable broke. It's an old bike, the cable was new, we have no idea why it happened, but I understand shit happens.

He brought me a cable a couple of weeks later and put it on. At this point I had taken the bike maybe 3 miles, with just a rear brake, downtown one night to a bar. I wanted to make sure it was running well. On the way back I had some pretty significant electrical issues. When he brought the cable, he checked out the bike and after a lot of fidgeting decided to take it home for a few days to mess with the electrical bits.

A week or two later it comes back. He leaves it by my garage. Doesn't stay to see if it runs as he has an appointment he's late for. No biggie. They did a lot of work on the electrical system including a new rectifier and a few adjustments on the timing, etc. Now, I should mention he has not charged me any additional money for the electrical work. I assume for two reasons, 1) he's a good guy, 2) he promised me I was buying a WORKING bike and wants to honor the deal.

I try the bike that night. Ride it 5 or 6 blocks down queen anne hill and it dies. I spend an hour trying to get it to start. It's leaking fuel every time I attempt to kick it over, but to no avail. I leave it, walk back up the hill and come back an hour later. After another half hour, it starts and I limp it back to the house.

The next day I spend an hour trying to get it to start. It takes a lot of constant idle screw adjustments, futzing about with the throttle etc. I does start eventually. I ride it one block and it dies. I attempt to start it again, get it going...sort of, put it in gear and it chugs 2 feet before dying. AGAIN. It will not start again.

I should say that I understand a vintage bike is going to be quirky. It's going to require a little love and messing with occasionally. I'm not an idiot. This thing is nearly 40. It's going to be particular, but it should at least get me more than a block at a time before refusing to start. Since I know the guy,

At this point, I'm done. The bike has never worked properly. I feel I've been very patient and understanding with it at this point, I just want my money back and to get my wife a bike she can be confident on.

He refuses. He's of the opinion I paid him the money, he delivered me the bike and therefore it's my problem, even though it has never run correctly as he first promised.

Now in my opinion, and Sarah's as a lawyer, I could be a dick here. I could remind him I bought a WORKING bike on his word and have never had that. It did not break AFTER I bought it. It has never worked properly. I could easily take him to court and win on this basis, but I don't want to screw him over, as I said earlier.

I'm supposed to talk with him tonight. I want to ask about the money he feels he's spent trying to get it to work. I'd like to come to an understanding and maybe meet him halfway on that figure. Or, if he feels it took him a rather insignificant amount, say $300, I'd be fine paying him that out of a refund and part as friends.

So, after all this I ask you: Do you think this is a logical approach to the problem or am I in the wrong here? I honestly can't believe someone would take the "you touched it last" approach to this and say it's my problem especially such a nice guy. What do you guys think?

Whats your friendship worth?

Honestly, I'd like you guys' opinion with that part removed. Friendship or not, am I crazy?

I'd sue if he won't give you the money back.  Regardless of how old the bike is, you paid for a working bike that was promised to "run like a top."  This bike sounds like a mess.  I think you win this one in court pretty easily.

My 2cnts.  I might be known as a pushover or gullible, but here's how I approach these kind of deals.  I go in with no expectations.  It's an old bike.  I expect it to be a project, with issues, even if it runs.  There could be problems that even the previous owner didn't anticipate or know about.  If it was a full restoration, and listed as something that could be trusted on a daily basis, not just a show piece, then I might expect everything to work as new.  But even then...it's an old bike.  Not knowing what you paid for it in relation to what similar models in various states of repair might go for, it seems the sticking points are his telling you it "runs like a top".  Words from an enthusiatic seller.  Sorry it's been so much trouble.

I think the fact that the seller told you it would be in good condition and run without problems after you paid for service and parts really puts him in a corner.  You didn't agree to purchase a project, you agreed to purchase something that runs good after the work was performed... vintage or not.  I agree with Dietrich that the seller might have been over-enthusiastic and maybe got himself into a situation that he couldn't deliver on.  It could be very likely the funds you paid him have already been allocated elsewhere and he's balking at returning money he doesn't have on hand.

Hopefully this all turns out ok and you guys can come to a civil agreement.  Litigation is no fun.

stranger jumping in.....
what kind of documentation do you have for the sale? any kind of warranty in writing?
i only ask because its really hard to pin someone down without it being in writing, and even then....
caveat emptor.

it isn't as hard as you think. If the seller is known for providing a certain service or good, for instance ready to ride motorcycles, then that seller can be bound by an implied warranty.

Basically it happens this way.

If he says I have a motorcycle here for riding and NOT a project bike or parts bike and someone buys it, it's implied that the bike works. If it doesn't, he basically lied to sell the bike and nobody is bound to a sale where someone falsely represented the product.

If this was someone you didn't know and he told you what he did about a bike would you accept his behavior? I would not. I would not expect it to be just like a brand new bike but I would expect it to run like it was maintained/restored properly. If you haven't put a significant amount of miles on it what does he lose? The bike is in the same shape he gave it to you in. He should take it back.

It's always buyer beware no matter what. You personally made the decision and therefore have to ultimately live with that decision. Act accordingly according to your own convictions is the final answer here. JMTC

Not quite.


+1, goes to the intent of the parties for entering an agreement to begin with. I may have missed the purchase price, but I hope you have something in writing if its over $500.00

Sounds like he's trying to weasel out of a lemon. I'd shoot for refund, and never deal with him in a business sense again.

I agree, pimp, there was an implied warranty.  I think your approach sounds courteous while still being persistent on the terms of the agreement, which is a sound running bike, not a project bike.

Im' not a litigeous man. I would just call Pauly Walnuts.

I can't get past the mechanical side of the problem. Have you looked in the gas tank? Twenty bucks says it's rusted to some degree. I can see rusty gas flowing to the carb and causing intermittent hard to start problems. CB Hondas are kinda bullet proof. Just curious about the tank's condition.

I have no good opinion about the business deal. You have received lots of good differing opinions so far. Sounds like you are trying real hard to be civil and to keep the friendship. [thumbsup] That's not common these days unfortunately. It would be nice if he acted the same way. As it has been stated, he sort of "promised" you a good running scooter. You just haven't gotten one yet. :P

good stuff brian, how is that tank?

So pimp, while we are bullshitting here, what have you been up to?

Having sold 2 bikes to members of this forum myself, here's a situation I was in that I rectified.  Hope this example helps.

I sold my '99 996 to El Matador, on this forum(not sure what he's goin by now, but at the time he was El Matador).  I sold him the bike on the implication that he would be getting 2 sets of body work...1 set that was scratched up and would be good for track days (I scratched it up on a lowside at a track day), and another set that was an unpainted, complete set of bodywork.  I put the unpainted bodywork on the bike, and was going to ship the other bodywork.  El Matador reversed that the day he bought the bike, and put the scratched up bodywork on the bike, and had me ship him the unpainted set.  Later on in the day, he calls me and says that while on his way to Dallas, the bodywork that he put on the bike ripped off.  Now, I didn't know what kind of condition the bodywork was in; all I said was that I would guarantee that he was getting 2 sets of bodywork.  However, since that was a condition of the sale, at my own expense, I bought a completely new set of bodywork so that he would have 2, as agreed upon.

What's my point?  You say that the guy told you that the bike would "run like a top", as you put it.  That is an implied warranty, albeit a verbal one, which is hard to uphold in a court case, but still an implied warranty nonetheless.  Based upon the information that you have provided, the seller is in breach of your contract, because the bike is not in working condition, which was the main condition of the sale.  You have every right to ask for your money back, and while the seller could choose to deduct monies from your original sale price as compensation for money spent on parts at his expense, he *could* be held liable for whatever money he owes you minus money for parts, if he chooses to take money out of it for that.

Allow me to put myself in your position and take an inventory of my contribution to the problem:

1)  I had expectations that a 40 year-old bike would be restored to practically new condition and sold to me for not much money because, well, I'm a friend.
2)  I gave someone half the sale price (instead of a $100 deposit) when it didn't run & still needed parts.
3)  When it was delivered, I never even took it for a test ride, as I would have in any other purchase.
4)  Before I test-rode the bike, I paid for a lot of labor and parts that should have been in the "working condition" price.
5)  The bike is still 40 years old.
6)  I tried to get by on the cheap 'cuz it was "just a little bike for the wife."
7)  Even though my friend has always failed to fix the bike correctly & completely, I keep taking it back to him instead of taking it to a dealer or someone who makes a living doing this kind of work for a living.
8)  After I have done all of the above, I now expect my friend to make a "Neiman-Marcus" refund because it would mean that I have no responsibility for anything.

This is how I learn things, but YRMV.

George

What does "Run like a top" really mean?  Ya start the top, it goes for about 30 seconds and then just sits there.  I think your bike runs like a top!

 ;D

Sorry man, Ive eaten all kinds of costs in the name of friendship.....more than once with a couple......shame on me. 

I now have a policy.  I dont work for close friends and/or neighbors.  If they need something, Ill do it as a favor.  There may be a day, and that day may never come where I may need a favor in return.

All it takes is one slight miscommunication or assumed expectation and it all goes to shit. 

Sucks no matter which way you look at it.....

How much was the bike btw?

it has been my experience that money and friendship rarely have a happy outcome.  there are only three people, friends, I would ever lend money to and I know they'd do the same for me.  it's a tough position you're in but I have to believe that a bike that old will have gremlins of some kind.  hopefully, he rights the situation.

that is how i read it too....

I think that the very concept of the "lemon law" in many states is targeted to prevent this type of situation.  So I respectfully disagree with those not smart enough to agree with me that a pimp ought to get his money back  [thumbsup]

What's the update, Pimp?  Clearly, we miss you since we can't let this thread die...  Where's the update?