Ducati Monster Forum

First time i went down, i was bit by one, and i rarely ever see them, but how are you suppose to deal with downhill decreasing radius turns? what line are you suppose to take?

a slow one

I'm no expert, but I take this left-hand decreasing radius downhill turn every day.  It's probably the most deceiving corner on our road, people bite it there frequently.

Hopefully the green line here gives you some idea despite my poor drawing skills.

(http://paularickert.net/albums/userpics/haskins3.jpg)

Coming into it, I stay well to the outside of the turn (right part of the lane) and brake hard into a late apex.

I then turn, staying to the outside of the turn and keep it slow as Raux says, watching the vanishing point to set my speed.  I often continue to lightly drag the front brake during the early part of the turn (note this is not the same as suddenly braking in the middle of the turn).  In the later part of the turn I either coast or have the throttle just cracked.

I wait until I can clearly see the exit then I start to straighten up and increase throttle at which point I can move more to the center of the lane (setting up for the next turn which is a right-hander).

On a right-hander I would do something similar but I wouldn't be as far to the outside of the turn because I don't like being too close to the double yellow (too much risk of an oncoming car drifting over the DY), so I'd be more in the middle of the lane rather than the left-hand side of the lane.

BTW I do exactly the same thing on a bicycle except I start pedaling instead of increasing throttle. ;)

On the street pretty much how somegirl put it, late apex, slow entry speed. Whenever you approach a corner you don't know, you should always at least consider the possibility that it's a decreasing radius corner & lower your entry speed accordingly. You *can* use your rear and trail in to help tighten your line but this isn't recommended when you're hitting a downhill decreasing radius for the first time. Practice before you use it.

On a track, you'll know the corner & can set your entry speed higher because you know what to expect. On the picture that somegirl put up, it's a pretty long decreasing radius corner so on the track you could try a line that means cutting the corner on the way in and turning in much later. Kind of like a double apex corner line.

The problem that you'll have on the street is that even if you judge the corner correctly and your entry speed is good, there are lots of variables like road surface, wind, traffic, etc that can not only throw the bike off but throw you off mentally as well. This is why something like a decreasing radius (and blind in the case of somegirl's picture) is something we should all treat with a great deal of caution.

For the record, I love decreasing radius corners, really easy to get your knee down (if you know the corner!) and, in fact, I first got my knee down on the track on a decreasing radius corner. Once you add the down hill factor and the fact that it's a public road, make sure you take it back a couple of notches more than you normally would at least until you learn the corner.

To sum up I'll quote Raux: "a slow one".

I'll add that if you are worried about picking up too much momentum because of the downhill, you can downshift before starting the turn.

Your engine braking will keep your speed in check.

Unless you have an APTC (which He Man does), in which case the engine braking will be less useful. But engine braking is much like using your rear brake anyway. ;)

That was how I went down last May. They still give me the willies.

If I'm on a new road, but following someone who knows them, I try to imitate their line. Doesn't work too well if you're riding in staggered formation, but I hate riding like that anyway. I'll add the obligatory "ride your own ride."

Otherwise, I try to delay my turn in point a bit past where it feels like it should be, and make sure I look hard through the turn. My natural tendency in those situations is to kind of hug the centerline which, as we all know, is counterproductive, and I have to fight it like mad.

On those occasions when I feel I need to tighten my line, I try to drop my inside shoulder. If I need even more, I can still stick my knee out, but I typically don't ride at speeds where I need that much correction.

For most situations, I've found that, of all things, the posted speed limit is usually a good bet on unfamiliar roads. Who'd a thought?

I trail brakes until I'm happy with my speed.  If I get scared, then I consider that a warning that I took the corner too fast and need to check myself.  I do my best to run nice lines on the street, but I don't sweat it too much.  The street has so many variables that the ideal line is always changing.

Biggest thing is turning your head more. Easy to forget and you end up looking at the side of the road. Neck like owl.

 ??? How do you manage to late apex a turn, and then turn in ??? The apex of a turn is the point at which you are the closest to the inside of the turn and you don't get to the apex until you have completed more than 50% of the turn.

The answer is what Raux said...slow. You are on a public street so you don't have much of a line choice. You can't use the entire pavement. If you could, then there would be a choice. People can talk all day about their favorite decreasing radius corner and how they like to ride it but every corner is different so what works for one will not always work for another. The examples given are good for when you know the turn and are prepared. I'm guessing from your question that you were surprised by a turn and panicked.
If you come up on a decreasing radius turn by surprise, There are some things that you should NOT do.

Don't grab the brakes, (especially rear) If you do, just ease on the front smoothly to scrub off a little speed. leaning over and using the rear brake is a bad combination that can very easily cause you to lose traction with the rear.
Don't stand up and ride off the turn. You don't know what is off the pavement and you are now in uncharted and dangerous territory.
Don't panic and just drop the bike.

Just stay committed and turn the bike in more. Your bike can do it and if you always practice good form, and smooth inputs, then you can ride it out just fine. Part of that good form is what Holden mentioned...look through the turn as far as you can. Also, body positioning, smooth braking and throttle inputs, and knowing the limits of your bike, and yourself are key.
If you are able to take a performance riding school like Parks, Code, Schwantz, etc. you will gain extremely valuable info and break down some of your bad habits that you form on the street. Then you are better prepared for, and have better skill to help with situations like these.
I am a Lead instructor at one of these schools and I can tell you that what you gain is priceless. My favorite thing is seeing the amazing progression from my students from the beginning to the end of the day.

So, the best way to take that turn or any other turn is to be as prepared as you can be. Educating yourself by taking a school is the best way to accomplish that. If you have specific questions and want some advice, feel free to pm me.  [thumbsup]
 [beer]

I guess I used incorrect terminology...how about: I brake hard into a line that uses a late apex.

no APTC here. Dry clutch! 

I forgot where i read this or who told me, but am I right to say that the biggest danger in a decreasing radius turn is having to turn the bike more than you intially thought, and usually very dangerous because you carried entry speed for corner radius A not B? It would be nice to find a corner to practice on but i only know of 2 dec radius turns. 1 bite me, the other has to many cars on it.

I wasn't trying to bust your chops...hard to convey emotion on the internet. ;) That does sound better. Would you say that a better way to explain your braking would be to trail brake? Because I think what you mean is that you are staying on the brake longer into the corner to scrub off more speed. For the less experienced riders, hearing "brake hard" can be a little confusing.
Just some food for thought :)

Yes. But if you are as prepared as you can be and have had lots of practice with advanced techniques, then you can usually manage to pull it off without crashing. More specifically, you should trail brake deep into this turn, and tighten your radius to complete the turn. Stay off of the rear brake, trail brake with the front only.
Learning trailbraking is one of those techniques that is very valuable. On the racetrack, we trailbrake all the way to the apex at times, then it's back on throttle. That is used for getting into a corner fast, but is not the fastest line to take. We use it for passing.
The fastest line will be to end your braking just before the apex and it's right to maintenance throttle. That is a low rpm throttle input that will drive you right through the apex, and keep your suspension set just where you want it. Then you start to roll on the throttle to drive out.

I'm getting a little ahead of our topic...sorry. There is so much that I could teach you about cornering but it's too much to type here and you should be learning it first hand in a school setting. Again, go take a school. It's the best thing that you can do for yourself. [thumbsup] I've got to get back to work now  [cheeky]

Because a decreasing radius line is more than just where you apex.

 ??? Huh?

The way she wrote that, she braked to the apex before she even turned. That's not possible. Doesn't matter where the apex is, or what turn you are on, the apex is the point at which you are closest to the INSIDE of the turn. On most turns, you don't even get there until you have completed more than 50% of the turn.

Ha ha, I mis-wrote as well. I meant to say that a late apex line is more than just where you apex. The line you take to the apex isn't set in stone. Late apex only describes an apex which is past 50% of the corner radius.

I understand what you're saying now & agree. I will say though that it is possible to late apex a turn & then turn in if you're double apexing but I realize that I'm just being pedantic now. ;)

Thanks for the clarification. :)  Yes, I trail brake but the majority of the braking (the hard braking) is done while I am still straight up and down.  Then I turn in while trail braking with the front.  I hope that makes more sense?

You need to keep turning.  The bike simply won't turn in under hard front brake.  Like Somegirl said, brake hard while you're upright, trail brake into the apex if you need to,  but if the turn gets tighter keep turning.  If you're not on the brakes the bike will have a lot more turn capability than you will be comfortable with.  Grabbing a bunch of brake, front or rear, will not help.

Yikes...sorry man but you are backwards here. When you brake, the front end drops and the steering quickens because you are shortening your wheelbase and changing your rake. The bike steers much quicker when on the brakes. That's why when driving out of a corner, the harder you get on the throttle, the wider you go. You are extending the forks back out and widening your line. Sorry but you are saying the exact opposite of what is true.
On the track, we are on the front brake very hard all the way to the apex. In fact, the rear wheel is often off the ground as we are turning in.

The rear brake is used as a steering technique also, but it is extremely difficult to do and not many people know how to do it effectively.

Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong then.  On the track, if I'm too hard on the brakes the bike won't turn in. As soon as I let off, the bike drops into the corner and I can trail off to the apex.  I know what you're saying about steering angle and wheel base, but the bike doesn't want to tip in until I start to ease off the brake.

Hmmm...that's odd. I would love to help you with this but I'm going to have to think about that for a bit. Any more details? Are you using the rear brake too? How's your body position? Are you weighting the front with your upper body? That last question is what I'm guessing you might be doing. If that sounds right, let me know, I can help you with that technique.

What is this rear brake that keeps being mentioned? ;D

exactly  ;)

You would be surprised at how many students I see that look at me like I'm crazy in class when I start talking about not using the rear brake. That discussion is usually fun. It's one of my tricks to see how advanced a rider is. Throw that out there and see their reaction. The ones that know always look bored, everyone else looks scared [laugh]

I'm a decent street rider, but still pretty much a hack on the track.  Typically, no rear brake and yes to weighting the front end under braking. (I'm old and fat).  As much as I'm gripping the tank, I know I'm still leaning on the bars.  Easing off the brake is almost like removing a brace from the front end, and it tips in just as nice as can be.  I don't doubt that some of it is technique, but we are talking about street riding.  I think for most people who feel they've overcooked a corner, braking hard late in the corner isn't the right thing to do.

I think that I can definitely give you some tips for your turn in issue based on what I'm hearing. Do you want me to critique you? If so, would you rather me discuss this "offline"? PM me if you wish. I'm asking because some people are not comfortable with talking about themselves and having their technique discussed in front of others.

This does transfer to street so I don't want you to think that this is for track only. This goes back to what I was saying about being prepared for these situations on the street by learning performance riding techniques on the track...it does transfer. Unfortunately, bad habits are developed on the street (by everyone) that transfer to the track at first. It's not until you break those bad habits that you become a better rider.  ;) Somegirl is an example of how learning advanced techniques transfers because the way she explained her trailbraking, she sounds like she has taken a school, done trackdays, or learned from someone. I'm not sure which but she has picked up a skill that does transfer to the street to her advantage.  [thumbsup]

By all means, critique.  For what it's worth, I asked a couple of very experienced track riders/instructors about this at my last track day, and they agreed that it takes a great deal of effort to get the bike to tip in under hard braking.  I asked how much my weight on the bars had to do with it and I got back that it would contribute to the problem but not necessarily be the cause. 

Please do!

I'm trying my best to redistribute bike/rider weight for confident and easy turning. (I have -10mm front and +10mm rear) Seems to be working well. I squeeze the tank to the point where I feel that I control the bike through the middle, not the bars.

Anything else? (this is fun)

 ;D

Ok Dan, I'm going to try and do this but I'm not a great writer. I can speak well and keep students awake  ;) but my writing skills are to be desired.

From your description of the problem and profile pic I'm going to have to give it my best educated estimate. I think that you need to work on your body positioning. Notice in your avatar pic that you are cornering and slightly hanging off but where is your upper body? It's on the top of the tank still. You are crossed over. Learning proper body positioning while cornering is going to take some practice but you can get there. I'm going to guess that you are fighting with your front end so hard because of your body positioning that you are actually pushing your weight hard into the bars while braking and therefore unable to properly countersteer into the turn.

When coming into a turn at speed, the first thing to do is sit upright, look to find your first visual reference point (if on a track it's usually a brake marker), get that knee out and your bum off the seat, then start easing on the front brake lever. (I'm going to keep this fairly basic and not talk about downshifts, throttle blipping, etc. We're just going to work on form here for now.) When you actually get off the seat can vary depending on the turn but to start with, learn to set up good and early. As that front brake is being squeezed, you should be looking to your second reference point, (the apex of the turn) and starting to tip in. You should be hanging off now pretty far and start preparing to get to that full lean point which is right at the apex. As soon approach the apex, shift your vision up and look all the way down the track to the next turn and not look at the pavement near you. Now you are at the apex, and you can start countersteering out of the turn, and picking the bike back up. You should already be at a maintenance throttle (we can cover that later too) and starting to roll the throttle back on and drving out of the turn.

So, that's a basic snapshot of what you are trying to do. Now let's go back to body positioning and entering the turn. When you grab the brake, you are droping the front end and putting a massive forward weight bias on the bike's front end. Not only from the bike but your own weight as well. Alot of racers squeeze the tank hard here to avoid transfering their weight into the bars, which gos into the froks and you then become an extension of the forks and that's bad! Your suspension cannot work properly if you become an extension of it and I think that you are probably doing this.

The real key here is core strength. using your legs to not only stop that initial push forward, but to also hold you onto the bike while cornering. You need to learn to use your legs, stomach, and lower back muscles to do this properly. When racers throw the bike into the corner, we are being very aggressive with our input. It's countersteering. if you are turning right, you push on the right bar. We also countersteer out of the turn by pushing on the opposite bar to stand the bike up faster. After the initial input, we are then not giving much input to the bars at all. So when leaned over all the way, we are barely doing anything to the grips with our hands. Just giving a slight push to hold the bike's line but we can actually take a hand off because there is almost nothing there. We are using that core strength and outer leg on the tank to hold us on.

I think that you are braking, letting your weight transfer into the bars, and using your upper body so much that you can't make that steering input until you ease off the brake. You are getting by with it because you are not pushing yourself to pick up your corner speed. Same with your upper body. Like your pic shows, you can get by with that for now but as you get faster, there will be a time when that form will put you on your head and I don't want to see that happen. I've had students that have physical limitations of different kinds that really struggle with this and it takes them a while to get better. Some are repeat students so I see their progression and it may take some of them having to go to the school several times to get better. I don't know you and have not seen you ride so I'm guessing by your description of yourself that you may feel like you are already struggling. My advice is just get lots of practice in and if you really want to get better it may be a fitness issue. There is no shame in that. I used to struggle with my fitness because I would get so tired after doing a couple of races and it was hard to complete a full race weekend. So I went nuts and started training and now I'm a completely different person! If I can do it, you can do it.

Some other points that I want to make...having good form and relaxing is key to not getting fatigued. I tell students to go into turns and before they get to the turn, flap their elbows like a chicken to remind them to relax. First few sessions I see people doing it and they all say thanks because it helped them remember to relax. If you are tense, you will get worn out fast and then your from gets sloppy, and you are too tired. At the last school day of the year, I was on an ex AMA GSXR1000 that was putting out a solid 180hp. I was so tense riding that rocket ship that I got extremely tired and my muscles were sore all evening. It was a blast to ride but it wasn't mine so I was just tense and had to be very aware of that rear tire spinning. So, it can happen to any of us, just work hard to relax. I have some tricks that I use to relax. I wear earplugs and a mouthguard. The mouthguard was recommended by an oldschool racer who raced IOM, British GP, MotoGP and raced with the likes of Dunlop, Agostini, Nielsen, Smart, etc. He is a very wise man and he recommended that I wear one and it was one of the best things that anyone has ever told me. Not only does it help me relax, but it reduces concussions. So if you are having trouble with relaxing, try those things.

Another key thing is getting your suspension set up properly. That is the best mod that you can do for yourself, hands down.

It's really hard to go into great detail when limited by a keyboard, and not being hands on and riding with you. I just walked you through a BASIC cornering how to and just barely talked about proper form. I think that your issue can be resolved by one on one instruction but it's up to you to attend a school to get it. I would do  a trackday with you if you came near the midwest. ( I have no idea where you are) I hope that this helps point you in the right direction, because I can't do a lot without following you on a bike but at least you now have my opinion. If you read this and it doesn't make sense, let me know. Or if you have other questions...cause winter is not even here yet and there will be a lot of time spent on this computer!  [laugh]

Thanks fbd. :)

I did take 3 days of track schools but it was a while ago and I never worked on trail braking there. :-[

I have learned a lot since we moved to the twisties a few months ago and I get to practice these things every day.  Most of the time I'm on the moto, sometimes in a car, sometimes on a bicycle and some things transfer over from my descending technique.

At this point, I deal with them the same way I deal with all my other problems.

I drink heavily.  [beer] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink] [drink]

 ;)

 [clap] very good write up fasterblkduc!

 I spend a lot of time working on making the bike corner the way i want at an open airfield. If you hit the brakes HARD the front end dips and you can really get the bike to drop into a corner FAST.

When are you suppose to transition from brake to gas? If I read it right, you said your on the brakes when you are going into the turn....but how far into it before you let off? I'm afraid if i go into a turn with a fist full of brakes, ill loose the front...

This is how my throttle/brake goes

...going straight, hard braking, BEGIN the countersteer to snap the bike into turn and let off the brake.
At this point im probably 50% into the lean angle i decide on... then with the bike just engine braking, ill finish the lean in and before i reach the apex of the turn, ill rev the engine enough to pick up the chain slack so i dont break the rear when i get on the throttle, then i accelerate out of the turn...

Is there soemthing i can be doing better?

There is not one correct answer here because it depends on what you are doing in that corner. If you want to take the corner at a high cornerspeed, you are going to end your braking early. You will use the brake to set your corner speed and it will involve a little trailbraking but not a lot. You would also use the entire corner by starting wide hitting the apex tight, then running out wide on exit. This is if you want to carry high corner speed.

If you want to get into and through the corner before someone else (passing), then you are going to use less of the track and delay your braking, downshifting routine until later. You will start your braking later, and hold it longer. On most corners when doing this, you will brake all the way to the apex because you are trying to outbrake someone. You are right about the front end...you will load it hard. This is where you better have good suspension and front tire, because you will push the front end hard.

I routinely slide the front end but I'm on the UK Dunlop slicks that are AMA spec and they hook back up nicely.  Late braking is what I'm known for. Here's a video from our last school day. In the video you will see two students, (who are racers, and not slow) come up on me in T3. (BIR's new short course) They are on an R6, and a gixxer750. I am on my 620. They come into this turn at approx. 145, I come into it at 120mph. They try to split me and pass on both sides. I can see both of them next to me so I just start my braking later, hold my line right through the middle, and carry a lot more corner speed then they are. If the guy on the inside was real fast, he could have passed me, but the guy on the outside would have possibly been pushed out if this was a race and he tried to stick the pass. They have way more hp, but if you keep watching, they can't get around in any of the turns. It's not until they can get on the power that they pass. Here's the vid. Go to 8:00 for this part.
http://www.youtube.com/user/CRA5150#p/u/4/b3az2gZYBpE (http://www.youtube.com/user/CRA5150#p/u/4/b3az2gZYBpE)

So it depends on what you need to do and all corners are not equal. There are some corners that you can be back at full throttle just before the apex, and some that you are braking hard past the apex. You other question was about getting back on throttle. If you want to get faster, and smoother, you need to learn to eliminate the pause between chopping throttle, then doing your braking and shifting, then getting back on. You don't want any pause where you are coasting. You should be on throttle or on brake and not have a pause in there. You should go to what is known as a maintenance throttle as soon as your done braking. You can see it in motogp when they show the braking and throttle meters on the screen. You just ease the throttle on to keep the engine rpms up and start preparing for that drive out. This also keeps your suspension planted in the right stance. A little bit of throttle unloads the front slightly and hold the bike right where you want it. The you ease the power back on and the bike will start to stand up and run wide.

The proper way to grab the brake, and start that maintenance throttle is with smooth, controlled inputs. Don't ramp those inputs up fast, then drop them off. You mentioned grabbing the brake hard but you actually want to squeeze that lever slow and smooth. If you watch the front end of racebikes going into a corner, the front drops but it's a smooth controlled drop. You ease that brake on, set your suspension for the corner, then tip it in.

Ok, I typed this up fast, and now dinner is calling ;D So, I'll read this later and see if I'm leaving something out.  [beer]

He Man needs a track day. [thumbsup]

i concur. Gonna need to work the corner to afford it. litterally ;D