Just picked up an s4r and noticed a few missing things [roll]
Missing a bolt in the rear sprocket
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x34/jakeketchmark/photo.jpg)
Anybody know the part number? I downloaded the parts diagram from ducati but am not seeing it in there.
Also, the front sprocket is missing both its retainer bolts, not sure what they are called.
And the weird part, which is probably why the bolts aren't there, is the clip doesn't line up with the holes in the sprocket.
Here is a pic, kind of hard to see, but no matter which way you put it on or twist it, it will not line up.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x34/jakeketchmark/1.jpg)
The sprocket has the clip outline on it in the correct position, so it must've lined up at one point.
What's going on here ???
I thought the clip might have been worn out, so I took the one of my 600 and tried to put it on there, but I had the exact same issue, so I do not think it is the clip.
ANY help is appreciated.
Thanks!
Shouldn't the clip slide in and then twist to the correct position? That's how I remember it the last time I took it apart anyways...So you slide it on, twist it, and then it's not lined up? that what's happening? maybe that sprocket isn't the correct one for that bike? not sure if they changed the spline count or size between years.
AFAIK, that spline has been the same for a *long* time.
Like Ducatl said, the plate goes on, then fits into the groove and can be rotated to make the bolts line up.
That's an aftermarket quick-change sprocket setup.
It looks like an AFAM unit, but could be another brand, I think there's a couple that are similar.
Just pull out one of the other bolt/nut sets, and buy another of the same.
I thought the S4s had the one big bolt and the s2s had the 2 little ones like in that pic.
If I'm wrong (and that is possible ;)) looking at the shaft there shouldbe a groove that the plate sits in so it can rotate to line up with the sprocket holes.
That said, looking at that pic it does appear that even if you rotate that plate the holes will not line up, any how, get it fixed and don't ride it till you do, that sprocket working it's way off could cause catastrophic damage to your bike and you.
According to the parts catalogues, the big nut setup didn't start until the Testastretta S4Rt and S4Rs.
S4 and S4R had the plate setup.
I'd say *something* is haywire, from the looks of that rear sprocket.
There may be another manufacturer besides Ducati that uses that same spline.
Quote from: Ducatl on October 19, 2009, 09:00:21 PM
Shouldn't the clip slide in and then twist to the correct position? That's how I remember it the last time I took it apart anyways...So you slide it on, twist it, and then it's not lined up? that what's happening? maybe that sprocket isn't the correct one for that bike? not sure if they changed the spline count or size between years.
yes, that's what should happen, but no matter which way you rotate it, it will not line up. I'm so confused. So I can get the rear bolt at any hardware store? Easy enough.
Speeddog, what do you mean something is haywire with my rear sprocket? As far as I can tell the rear looks fine except for the missing bolt. Maybe I'm missing something.
Thanks for the input so far.
Maybe I'm reading too much into the picture, but it *looks* like there's a lot of wear on the side of every second tooth.
That would mean there's a chain/sprocket alignment problem.
Gotcha. That would make sense since there is nothing holding the front sprocket in place lol.
So why isn't my clip lining up? Wrong sprocket? But there is an outline on the sprocket of the clip in the correct position, so that would indicate the sprocket was correctly installed at one point, right?
Quote from: Speeddog on October 20, 2009, 07:26:28 AM
Maybe I'm reading too much into the picture, but it *looks* like there's a lot of wear on the side of every second tooth.
That would mean there's a chain/sprocket alignment problem.
There is an alignment problem because the front sprocket is being allowed to walk back and forth on the output shaft. In the picture, it looks almost like the groove for the retainer is on the outside of the front sprocket, but I'm not too sure. If the sprocket travels in toward the engine, the misalignment will cause wear on the outside of the teeth on the rear sprocket, like what appears to be the case..
You need to move the front sprocket to expose the groove in the output shaft and rotate the retainer to align the holes with those in the sprocket. If the retainer will not rotate, it is probably because of the teeth on the retainer or on the output shaft are chewed up. The retainer is hardened, and so is the output shaft, but the retainer can chew up the splines on the output shaft...it's happened to me. Sometimes it can be difficult for the retainer to rotate, but it is suppose to. Basically, the teeth on the retainer will line up with the teeth on the output shaft once rotated (teeth butting against teeth so that the sprocket will not walk).
Yes, the quick change carrier on the rear appears to be of an AFAM design. Sprocket Specialists made a similar QC carrier (the sprockets are interchangeable). The bolt may or may not be a standard bolt. The bolt on my Sprocket Specialists carrier on my 748 is a speical bolt. You may be able to get a regular bolt and grind it down to fit in the recession in the back of the QC carrier if it is a different design than just a regular bolt.
Also, when you go to replace the bolts in the front sprocket retainer (edit - M5 bolts), make sure you degrease the threads in the sprocket with a cleaner, let it dry, and use blue Locktite on the bolts. If you do not buy the bolts from Ducati, get either Grade 8 (I forget what the value is in metric) or a stainless steel bolt. If you get the el cheapo bolts, you may get the ones that will shear the heads off when you go to torque them down or when you go to take them back out.
I hope this helps.
Thank you! I just realized how stupid I am. I need to pull the sprocket out and leave the clip in the groove and align it there. The sprocket was way over by the engine causing exactly what you described. I got confused because it usually isn't way over there and couldn't figure out how to get the clip over there. Wow what a brain fart. Sorry for my stupidity.
If the rear sprocket bolt is a special one can I order them from afam?
Quote from: minnesotamonster on October 20, 2009, 08:25:22 AM
Thank you! I just realized how stupid I am.
I come to that realization far too often about myself. [laugh]
Quote from: minnesotamonster on October 20, 2009, 08:25:22 AMIf the rear sprocket bolt is a special one can I order them from afam?
I'm sure that whoever the manufacturer is, they will probably be more than happy to sell (or give) you another bolt. I'm not too sure where the marking will be to see who the manufacturer is, but you may be able to find one if you clean off the carrier. You may also be able to look through the rear wheel and see what those bolt heads look like.
Stopped at a hardware store over lunch. Got a couple stainless m4 and m5 bolts ( the m4s looked too small, along with a couple lock washers. Hopefully this tajes care of it and my alignment problem. Just need a bolt for the rear sprocket now [moto]
thanks guys!
let's all just stop for a second and thank the moto-gods that this stuff wasn't lining up properly because of a bent output shaft.
moving on...
Quote from: minnesotamonster on October 20, 2009, 12:05:36 PM
Got a couple stainless m4 and m5 bolts ( the m4s looked too small,
I'm home, now, and measured them. They appear to be M5, as you expected. I edited my response above to reflect this.
Quote from: corey on October 20, 2009, 01:15:46 PM
let's all just stop for a second and thank the moto-gods that this stuff wasn't lining up properly because of a bent output shaft.
moving on...
>:(
not cool
Quote from: Desmo Demon on October 20, 2009, 01:48:13 PM
thanks [thumbsup]
I'm home, now, and measured them. They appear to be M5, as you expected. I edited my response above to reflect this.
If you do not buy the bolts from Ducati, get either Grade 8 (I forget what the value is in metric) or a stainless steel bolt. If you get the el cheapo bolts, you may get the ones that will shear the heads off when you go to torque them down or when you go to take them back out.
Metric equivalent to grade 8 is 10.2. Elcheapo is 8.8.
Quote from: 64duc on October 20, 2009, 03:12:37 PM
If you do not buy the bolts from Ducati, get either Grade 8 (I forget what the value is in metric) or a stainless steel bolt. If you get the el cheapo bolts, you may get the ones that will shear the heads off when you go to torque them down or when you go to take them back out.
Metric equivalent to grade 8 is 10.2. Elcheapo is 8.8.
FYI, stainless bolts are ungraded, and therefore should be treated as weaker than grade 3. I doubt that the bolts are undergoing any serious shear forces as they are only M5, but still, I would use grade 8 as corrosion should not be an issue in the highly lubricated front sprocket area.
Quote from: duckb0y on October 20, 2009, 05:40:20 PM
FYI, stainless bolts are ungraded, and therefore should be treated as weaker than grade 3. I doubt that the bolts are undergoing any serious shear forces as they are only M5, but still, I would use grade 8 as corrosion should not be an issue in the highly lubricated front sprocket area.
+1 to that, stainless is probably not the way to go. Metric bolts are rated by class, class 10.9 is roughly grade 8 equal. Zinc coated bolts do fairly well against corrosion.
Corrosion isn't really the issue nor is shear force during operation, as it is only holding the plate in position.
The tightening torque required is pretty low, it's only when you have to undo the bolt and as it's loctited in, may require a bit of force to undo and you may end up breaking the bolt. That is why a hightensile bolt is the better option and for only a couple of cents difference, why go the cheapo route?
As for that rear bolt, take a bolt out of the rear carrier, take it to a bolt suppliers and say "I want one of these". The average hardware store will not stock something like this so you need to find a specialist supplier in the phone book.
Read the torque settings thread for reassembling it all.
+1 on brimo's post.
I picked up and installed the stainless bolts already. Is it ok that I went with the stainless?
I'll do that with the rear. I believe there is a place near me that is a specialty store.
Thanks again for all the help :)
Quote from: duckb0y on October 20, 2009, 05:40:20 PM
FYI, stainless bolts are ungraded, and therefore should be treated as weaker than grade 3.
Come to think of it, I never really looked up the specs for stainless stell fasteners and compared them to carbon steel. I've just gone by the fact that I've never snapped the head off of a stainless bolt and have a difficult time cutting them with a hack saw or drilling a hole through them. I can easily cut and drill factory bolts, so just figured that the stainless ones to be a stronger replacement because of this.....and a whole lot cheaper.
And, yes, there are no real forces being exerted on those bolts. Your main concern will be that it will loosen and back off, as these did. You could "almost" get away with using a paperclip or safety wire in this application. I'm just used to getting grade 8 (10.9) or stainless bolts for a fraction of the cost of OEM and have made it a bit of a habit. I remember buying a set of bolts for front rotors and getting all of them for less than Ducati wanted for ONE bolt.
Some pretty good responses after my post. Made me think a little. ;)
Edit: Interesting page on tensile strengths here - http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/home_garden/bolts.html (http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/home_garden/bolts.html)
Looks like this site says 316 stainless is about the same strength as a grade 5 (8.8 ) medium carbon heat-treated steel. A 304 stainless is rated at 104,000 psi compared to 74,000 psi for a grade 2 low-carbon steel rating.
I like this page, too - http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx (http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx)
Quote from: Desmo Demon on October 21, 2009, 09:05:00 AM
Come to think of it, I never really looked up the specs for stainless stell fasteners and compared them to carbon steel. I've just gone by the fact that I've never snapped the head off of a stainless bolt and have a difficult time cutting them with a hack saw or drilling a hole through them. I can easily cut and drill factory bolts, so just figured that the stainless ones to be a stronger replacement because of this.....and a whole lot cheaper.
Edit: Interesting page on tensile strengths here - http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/home_garden/bolts.html (http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/home_garden/bolts.html)
Looks like this site says 316 stainless is about the same strength as a grade 5 (8.8 ) medium carbon heat-treated steel. A 304 stainless is rated at 104,000 psi compared to 74,000 psi for a grade 2 low-carbon steel rating.
I like this page, too - http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx (http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Bolt-Grade-Chart.aspx)
You probably never broke a SS bolt because it wasn't rusted into whatever you were taking it out of. SS bolts can still get stuck in threads, as they have a tendency to gall, that is if you do not use anti-seize thread lubricant and the threads are not clean, you can actually weld the SS bolt into the hole. This is due to the high hardness (which is the reason you have a hard time cutting SS). Also, SS bolts are more likely to gall going into dissimilar materials, such as your engine case or steel gearbox output shaft, etc. I work in an industry that uses stainless steel hardware exclusively, and we treat it as an ungraded bolt.
Basically what I am saying is shit yeah, I use SS hardware, but not on things that will cause me to die if the bolt breaks, or things that are highly loaded. I think if its more than a 10mm bolt, I would leave it the stock material as it is probably load carrying.
Another thing to note, you don't want to use a bolt that is too hard or strong, because you could strip out the threads of the material you screwing into. i.e. a grade 8 bolt into aluminum is a recipe for disaster.
Quote from: duckb0y on October 22, 2009, 06:00:39 PM
You probably never broke a SS bolt because it wasn't rusted into whatever you were taking it out of. SS bolts can still get stuck in threads, as they have a tendency to gall, that is if you do not use anti-seize thread lubricant and the threads are not clean, you can actually weld the SS bolt into the hole. This is due to the high hardness (which is the reason you have a hard time cutting SS). Also, SS bolts are more likely to gall going into dissimilar materials, such as your engine case or steel gearbox output shaft, etc. I work in an industry that uses stainless steel hardware exclusively, and we treat it as an ungraded bolt.
Unless I use Locktite on the bolt, I use antiseize on everything. I have access to some really good antiseize in huge quantities. ;)
You are also correct about the issues with galling (typically with aluminum or other soft metals) and galvanic corrosion caused by disimilar metals. In many situations, I will consult with a table of ionic charges to reduce the chance of galvanic corrosion. This is one reason why I try not to use high-carbon steels with aluminum and I use antiseize if I cannot get around it.
There is a lot of interesting and complex information that can be researched on galvanic corrosion and strengths of materials.