Just wondering what that means to everyone. Looking for opinions on what immediate thoughts come to mind when you see a product stamped with those words.
I know what connotations come to mind when I see the following:
1. Made in Japan
2. Made in Italy
3. Made in China
So, let's have it, what does "Made in the USA" mean to you?
Made in USA means jobs to me. I try to buy it when ever possible.
My stereo, TV, and 1 car was made in Japan - a big part of my buying decision - implied quality.
My hiking boots are made in Europe - Italy if possible - again quality materials and build - will not buy Chinese made boots, and it is getting harder to find. I was at a new Bass Pro shops, and 100% of the foot ware was made in China.
mitt
First reaction is usually, I wonder how much of it is "Made in the USA." Other reactions are "at least there are a few manufacturing jobs still around" followed up by "yep, this is going to cost a bit more."
pretty much like every thing made anywhere else. I'll pick up the item and inspect its quality, it's feel, its weight and determine if the item is worth the price regardless of where its made (that being said, EVERYTHING I've ever used from china was grade A trash and everything I've seen from Germany was absolutely top quality).
in the end it all comes down to the manufactures. For instance. Craftsman hand tools are made in the USA as are Snap-on tools.
fit, finish, and quality of Craftsman stuff is junk Compared to Snap-on, but it comes at a price.. To me, the extra cost of the snap-on is worth the higher quality. (a craftsman 12pc wrench set is like $40.. a similar snap on set would be closer to $300)
i also think that "made in the USA" means jobs. but its very hard to draw any conclusive lines about this.
at least 8 Toyota models are made in the US, and maybe as many Ford models are made in canada and mexico. and where are the parts made?
tough call.
Quote from: herm (not herb) on October 21, 2009, 07:41:40 AM
i also think that "made in the USA" means jobs. but its very hard to draw any conclusive lines about this.
at least 8 Toyota models are made in the US, and maybe as many Ford models are made in canada and mexico. and where are the parts made?
tough call.
Japanese don't even consider Toyota to be a Japanese company anymore.
Quote from: herm (not herb) on October 21, 2009, 07:41:40 AM
i also think that "made in the USA" means jobs. but its very hard to draw any conclusive lines about this.
at least 8 Toyota models are made in the US, and maybe as many Ford models are made in canada and mexico. and where are the parts made?
tough call.
Don't forget Subaru (owned by Toyota), BMW, and Mercedes. They all make some of their models in the US.
I try to buy USA made products, but sometimes, unfortunately other countries make better comparable products. Quality is more important to me than country of origin. :-\
Quote from: Ivan V on October 21, 2009, 08:03:23 AM
Oversized.
And chromed.
Unfortuately, that describes 80% of the cars and trucks being made. [puke]
To me it's a bit of a paradox,
Anymore "Made in the USA" means made in Mexico. Conversely, "Made in Japan" actually means that products are made in the USA, while claims of products being "Made in China" are for the most part made in China.
Oh wait a minute...even fortune cookies which are believed by most to be Chinese, originated and are still made in the USA.
Nothing is made where it says it's made...except nuclear weapons in N. Korea. They make their own stuff.
(http://blog.jinbo.net/files1/33/CINA/images/200502/080158289.jpg)
[laugh]
There was a great show with John Ratzenburger called Made in American that really explained the value behind, Made in USA.
It's People.
Quote from: mitt on October 21, 2009, 07:17:34 AM
Made in USA means jobs to me. I try to buy it when ever possible.
+11tb
Can sometimes be hard to find and usually costs more, but I seek out the label personally when there's a choice.
Quote from: Speedbag on October 21, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
...but I seek out the label personally when there's a choice.
With so many American companies sending production out of the country, how does a "Made in USA" label assure you in any way that you're actually buying something that was made in the USA when the parent company is the only component of the process that is actually domestic?
Here's a prime example of my point and the ever growing level of corporate hypocrisy; over the Memorial Day weekend, J.C. Penney advertised a silkscreen T-shirt bearing the slogan, “American Made.†Yet when Joe Allen, a retired apparel manufacturer in the Dallas area, bought the T-shirt, he found it actually was made in Mexicoâ€"â€of USA fabric.â€
WTF??
If that's not misleading I don't know what is! So again, if you actively seek out American made products, how can you tell if the product that you are buying actually is made in the USA?
This topic reminds me of one of my favorite 80's era movies:
(http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/22/A70-11216)
the hypocrisy of the whole thing reminds me of a bad hangover...
makes my head hurts, cant quite see straight, and i feel a little like i want to puke.
Even if it is made in the USA, you can guarantee their debt and money is either held in Luxembourg or Netherlands.
They have more favorable tax laws.
Just like 99% of companies are registered in Delaware.
Quote from: Monster Dave on October 21, 2009, 09:50:43 AM
This topic reminds me of one of my favorite 80's era movies:
(http://www.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/22/A70-11216)
Q: Is a frog's asshole watertight?
A: We berieve it is.
I believe that you can't label things made in the US if they are made in MX. That is at least the way we operate.
mitt
I agree.
Thinking about this topic makes me feel like this:
(http://i21.tinypic.com/2mza8b8.gif)
Though, I should probably say that where we live (in the USA) there's an awful lot of influence from south of the border that makes me feel overwhelmed this way.
Quote from: mitt on October 21, 2009, 11:48:59 AM
I believe that you can't label things made in the US if they are made in MX. That is at least the way we operate.
mitt
It does get kind of confusing with labels like "Assembled in USA of parts originating in China or Taiwan" Or just "Assembled in USA" rather than Made in USA. There used to be a pretty much iron-clad law that products had to be marked with the country of origin but I see more and more products with no country markings at all, particularly hand tools.
It may already be too late, but before we can make a complete and lasting economic recovery we need to do something about the hemorrhaging of USA manufacturing jobs to China. I've worked for and with several foreign corporations and they are like us in that the employees want to of course further their own careers and make money for themselves and their company.
But underlying all of it is their desire to bring money back to their home countries. That is where it seems to me that US corporations have gone off track, all they want is short term profit, seemingly at the expense of their own labor force and their own countries overall benefit. There isn't a simple solution, but we the people, and our government don't seem to be doing much of anything at all to change anything. I'm way out of my element but it seems like some revising of the tax laws are in order.
Quote from: Langanobob on October 21, 2009, 12:07:18 PM
It does get kind of confusing with labels like "Assembled in USA of parts originating in China or Taiwan" Or just "Assembled in USA" rather than Made in USA. There used to be a pretty much iron-clad law that products had to be marked with the country of origin but I see more and more products with no country markings at all, particularly hand tools.
It may already be too late, but before we can make a complete and lasting economic recovery we need to do something about the hemorrhaging of USA manufacturing jobs to China. I've worked for and with several foreign corporations and they are like us in that the employees want to of course further their own careers and make money for themselves and their company.
But underlying all of it is their desire to bring money back to their home countries. That is where it seems to me that US corporations have gone off track, all they want is short term profit, seemingly at the expense of their own labor force and their own countries overall benefit. There isn't a simple solution, but we the people, and our government don't seem to be doing much of anything at all to change anything. I'm way out of my element but it seems like some revising of the tax laws are in order.
Well put. [thumbsup]
Quote from: mitt on October 21, 2009, 11:48:59 AM
I believe that you can't label things made in the US if they are made in MX. That is at least the way we operate.
mitt
All of our injected molded parts are made here in Dublin, Ohio. Average wage is 15$ an hour
shipped down to Mexico for assembly. Average wage 2.30$ an hour
No brainer to me, but I am a finance person.
Packages are labeled "assembled in mexico"
It is funny how the reputation of a country's manufacturing output evolves. Back in the 80s, the low-end Fender guitars were made in Japan. Since it was the 80s, this meant they were automatically shitty by merit of their country of origin. Now you will see people selling them on the basis of "MIJ, not that Chinese or Mexican crap". And Japan seems to be the standard-bearer for car quality now - their reputation was much different 20-30 years ago.
So, I wonder if Korea will be the next Japan, since Hyundai seems to have improved dramatically in quality, with offerings like the new Genesis.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on October 21, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
All of our injected molded parts are made here in Dublin, Ohio. Average wage is 15$ an hour
shipped down to Mexico for assembly. Average wage 2.30$ an hour
No brainer to me, but I am a finance person.
Packages are labeled "assembled in mexico"
Right, but continue the trend for another 50 years, and who will have money left to spend in the US if there are no jobs other than pushing papers?
Why not move outsource our molding outside the US - it would be cheaper and less transportation cost. Why not move your IT group there too? You get my idea what I am getting at. I see the writing on the wall where I work, and we have already done these things. Next HR, and then ???
mitt
Quote from: il d00d on October 21, 2009, 12:28:17 PM
So, I wonder if Korea will be the next Japan, since Hyundai seems to have improved dramatically in quality, with offerings like the new Genesis.
Short answer, in my opinion, is yes.
mitt
To me, made in the USA means QUALITY.
I know a lot of folks will disagree, and with some products they are right.
But with a lot of products, made in the USA is a sign of hand-made quality, and attentiveness to detail... And a higher price tag, for some reason.
Things i buy made in the U.S.A... Lucky Jeans... Wolverine Boots (Check out the new 1000 Mile boot, its a repro of an old era boot from original patterns)... FORD.
best wallet i ever bought was hand made in NYC. Still have it.
we need more manufacturing, period.
Most Made in the USA products that I buy are going to be "boutique" items at the premium end of the spectrum. Taylor guitars and Allen Edmonds shoes come to mind. That said, I veiw these types of things as more of an investment. I'll drop $50 on a pair of foreign-made (China, as that's where >90% of all shoes are made) sneakers that will last me 2-3 years. I have 3 pair of AE shoes that were made in Lewiston, ME. The "cheapest" of which were $135 or so even at a 50% discount because they were last year's model. I'll have to have them re-soled eventually, but those shoes will last stand up to 10 years of everyday use. I'm willing to pay a premium for higher quality and durability.
That said, I like my tequila to be from Mexico, my cigars from the Dominican Republic, and my bikes from Italy.
Quote from: mitt on October 21, 2009, 12:31:40 PM
Short answer, in my opinion, is yes.
mitt
I tend to think so too. I didn't know anything about Hyundai until I watched a thing on North Korea - Hyundai makes damn near everything in South Korea and is pretty eager to have a larger labor pool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Heavy_Industries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Heavy_Industries)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-hyundai.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/business/worldbusiness/25iht-hyundai.html)
Hyundia and Samsung are crazy big and smart and disciplined.
mitt
Quote from: DesmoDiva on October 21, 2009, 08:05:15 AM
Don't forget Subaru (owned by Toyota), BMW, and Mercedes. They all make some of their models in the US.
I try to buy USA made products, but sometimes, unfortunately other countries make better comparable products. Quality is more important to me than country of origin. :-\
Only a small portion of Subaru is owned by Toyota...15% or so.
And yes, the Koreans are really shaping up to be a juggernaut to be reckoned with. They too, are now manufacturing cars here in the USA.
I picked my compressor based on how american made it was. To me it ment quality, warranty and customer support.
We purchased a crib that was made here, we felt good about that. The stroller we bought (B.O.B.) we THOUGHT was made here but we were disappointed to learn otherwise, which sucks because those strollers were not cheap. We could have bought an italian made one for the same price. Most of our kid's toys are wooden and/or made here. I've compared those toys vs. plastic ones made in China and I have to say the quality difference is huge. His mobile he had as an infant was plastic and made in China and we had to return it due to defects 3 times. The only reason we didn't get a different one was because he LOVED that one.
I found an interesting blog you guys might like: http://madeinusablog.wordpress.com/ (http://madeinusablog.wordpress.com/)
Looks like he posts about different products he's bought that were legitimately made here and posts when it's fake. Lots of good links on buying american made products.
theres a lot of problems with chinese manufatured toys. i wouldnt buy them for your kid. In fact id stay away from them is possible. who knows what kind of plastics they use.
i think unfortunately like someone here said if you continue shipping jobs oveseas what is left here to buy?
the answer is nothing.
basically what will happen in all likelihood is that boutique things that have to be done here will be but a majorit of things will be shipped off overseas... american wages will have to come down in price since afterall the reason for shipping jobs overseas is so that we can ge our walmart prices on things, etc.
the US wages and standard of livin will have to go down there is no other way unless we borrow even more. i think maybe the US will then be like a france or somethingstill a civilized country but no longer the marketing capital of the world with the most prosperous economy or such.. but who knows right.?
gotta love irony of the ad at the top of this page:
(http://ducatimonsterforum.org/openx/www/delivery/ai.php?filename=kriega-us-static.gif&contenttype=gif)
There's a great scene in the documentary THE BIG ONE where an outsourced worker (in 1996) is talking about how globalization will wreck the US economy because no one will be able to afford a house, a car (etc) on $6.50 an hour, and that would create a snowball effect leading to unemployment and default on loans.
The best thing is because of his regional accent, he sounds rather unintelligent.
I try my best to buy non-sweatshop. Usually that means buying MADE IN THE USA, but not exclusively. There are legal sweatshops located in the Mariana Islands that can legally say MADE IN THE USA. It has become easier in the last 10 years to get American made shoes. New Balance puts out a lot of USA styles, plus there's always Red Wing for the dress shoes/work boots.
Quote from: sbrguy on October 21, 2009, 08:03:22 PM
i think unfortunately like someone here said if you continue shipping jobs oveseas what is left here to buy?
the answer is nothing.
basically what will happen in all likelihood is that boutique things that have to be done here will be but a majorit of things will be shipped off overseas... american wages will have to come down in price since afterall the reason for shipping jobs overseas is so that we can ge our walmart prices on things, etc.
the US wages and standard of livin will have to go down there is no other way unless we borrow even more. i think maybe the US will then be like a france or somethingstill a civilized country but no longer the marketing capital of the world with the most prosperous economy or such.. but who knows right.?
So, we should lower wages to increase US manufacturing of products that American workers cannot afford to buy because of their low wages? What am I not getting?
You may also want to read this:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf)
Keep in mind, the year of the report is 2007. My guess is things are worse now.
if american workers dont have jobs, then they cant afford to buy anything, even at walmart prices.
The gap between the wealthiest and poorest was relatively small after WWII. American families could afford to survive on one salary before the late 70s. When we stopped making stuff at a livable wage, we lost our standard of living. It's a bit cliche now, but there is a high cost to low prices. Is a race to the bottom one anyone can win?
I drove past a steel mill in Cleveland a couple days ago. A lot of what used to be manufacturing capacity has been razed to create a shopping plaza (steelyard commons). It's painfully ironic that a wal-mart super center now sits on a site that used to produce essential infrastructure materials.
Quote from: howie on October 22, 2009, 04:30:40 AM
So, we should lower wages to increase US manufacturing of products that American workers cannot afford to buy because of their low wages? What am I not getting?
You may also want to read this:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf)
Keep in mind, the year of the report is 2007. My guess is things are worse now.
My opinion, is that we should pay more for our goods. Most of us, me included, have way more stuff than we need, and that would help several things like conservation of resources. You look at the typical house and car portfolio today versus 1960, and things seem skewed.
mitt
I try to buy less, but buy better. I just got a new pair of black loafers for work. Made in America, women's 12 narrow. I can get shoes made in Italy too, but none were my size in the style I wanted.
They were $179 and will last 20 years. I could go to WM and get a pair of cheap shoes that do not fit well and then replace them soon.
I look for made in the USA labels. I also try to make sure we really need it before we buy it.
Quote from: howie on October 22, 2009, 04:30:40 AM
So, we should lower wages to increase US manufacturing of products that American workers cannot afford to buy because of their low wages? What am I not getting?
You may also want to read this:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ichcc.pdf)
Keep in mind, the year of the report is 2007. My guess is things are worse now.
Low wages? The article you posted said that the avg compensation for a manufacturing worker was $25/hr. That is a pretty decent amount of money considering the job probably requires no formal education or training. You don't think someone can live in Detroit on 50k a year? If they can't make it work they are doing it wrong.
I bet if you look at the countries where workers get paid more $ per hour, they get to pay a hell of a lot more taxes. They get to pay 20 or 30% on their ducati where we do not. They probably live more modestly, don't have as many kids, or if they do, have them later in life.
Everyone here could live on less money. The US labor force has cut off it's nose to spite it's face...
Quote from: Pedro-bot on October 21, 2009, 07:06:27 AM
So, let's have it, what does "Made in the USA" mean to you?
it means extra tax revenue to pay off taliban members and cash for clunker cars made overseas
Quote from: redxblack on October 22, 2009, 04:57:30 AM
The gap between the wealthiest and poorest was relatively small after WWII. American families could afford to survive on one salary before the late 70s. When we stopped making stuff at a livable wage, we lost our standard of living. It's a bit cliche now, but there is a high cost to low prices. Is a race to the bottom one anyone can win?
The difference (one of them) today is that people now have 2 or 3 cars, at least 3 televisions, multiple phone accounts, "entertainment" rooms, and so on. I have two relatives who have had a boob job.
My parents had one car thru the 1960s and mom got one later. It was fairly unusual for people to have 2 cars in the post-war period. Few people had TVs, phones, etc. Boob jobs? nope.
Moreover, kids shared bedrooms. In my neighborhood there are 4 and 5 bedroom homes and some people with 3 kids are moving out sayign they need more room. WTF? They need an office and a den too, they say. A couple down the street moved into a 5 br home -- 3 kids -- and they are building an addition onto the 3000 sq ft house.
Do we really need >500 sq ft per
PERSON?
Sure people in the postwar people could survive on 1 income. THey spent less, owned less and didn't get cosmetic surgery.
and they were happy
Quote from: bobspapa on October 22, 2009, 07:07:41 AM
and they were happy
my parents were very happy, at least that's what poppa said. they used to go to the cinema about twice a month before i came along, and after, less often until i was older and then they took me with them.
the theatre they used to go to had a "cry room" upstairs so you could watch the movie, but it was behind glass so no one else could hear.
old school.
I get what Tizzy is saying.
I grew up in a 1300 sq ft, 3 bedroom house.
Parents had one room.
oldest brother got the middle room
middle brother and me got the last room.
We had 2 TV's.
One in the family room
Parents had one in their room
of course later, we got a TV for the basement.
This was a basic tri-level house. I'd love to own a house like that and will one day.
I don't want some big ass 4,000sq ft house. I just want a make the beast with two backsing fenced yard for my doggies.
My parents could have well afforded a bigger house, but why????
My brother and I had a great time living in that room until my oldest brother graduated college and he was able to take over that room (my Mom made him wait....pretty funny).
this just in....... the chamber of commerce is evil.......
Here are W. Edward Deming's 14 points for effective business.
1. Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service, with the
aim to become competitive and stay in business, and to provide jobs.
2. Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western
management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities,
and take on leadership for change.
3. Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for
inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
4. End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag.
Instead, minimize total cost. Move towards a single supplier for any one item,
on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service,
to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs.
6. Institute training on the job.
7. Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8 of "Out of the Crisis").
The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets
to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul,
as well as supervision of production workers.
8. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company.
(See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")
9. Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design,
sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of
production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
10. Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking
for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations
only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low
quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond
the power of the work force.
11. a. Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor. Substitute leadership.
b. Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by numbers,
numerical goals. Substitute leadership.
12. a. Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship.
The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from sheer numbers to quality.
b. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering
of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia,
abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective
(See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis").
13. Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
14. Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation.
The transformation is everybody's job.
Quote from: Vindingo on October 22, 2009, 06:49:41 AM
Low wages? The article you posted said that the avg compensation for a manufacturing worker was $25/hr. That is a pretty decent amount of money considering the job probably requires no formal education or training. You don't think someone can live in Detroit on 50k a year? If they can't make it work they are doing it wrong.
I bet if you look at the countries where workers get paid more $ per hour, they get to pay a hell of a lot more taxes. They get to pay 20 or 30% on their ducati where we do not. They probably live more modestly, don't have as many kids, or if they do, have them later in life.
Everyone here could live on less money. The US labor force has cut off it's nose to spite it's face...
Hourly compensation includes the following:
> Hourly Direct Pay
>> Pay for Time Worked
>>> Basic wages
>>> Piece rate
>>> Overtime premiums
>>> Shift, holiday, or night work premiums.
>>> Cost-of-living adjustments
>>> Bonuses and premiums paid each pay period
>> Other Direct Pay
>>> Pay for time not worked (vacations, holidays, and other leave, except sick leave)
>>> Seasonal and irregular bonuses
>>> Allowances for family events, commuting expenses, etc.
>>> The cash value of payments in kind
>>> Severance pay (where explicitly not linked to a collective agreement)
> Employer Social Insurance Expenditures (both legally required and contractual and private) and
Other Labor Taxes
>> Retirement and disability pensions
>> Health insurance
>> Income guarantee insurance and sick leave
>> Life and accident insurance
>> Occupational injury and illness compensation
>> Unemployment insurance
>> Severance pay (where linked to a collective agreement)
>> Other social insurance expenditures
>> Taxes (or subsidies) on payrolls or employment
Hourly labor is only part of manufacturing cost.
What about over paid executives?
5
31
Table 4
CEO Compensation and Pay of Production Workers in Manufacturing, 2001 (US $)
CEO Compensation
Production Worker in
Manufacturing (4)
CEO/Worker
Pay Ratio
Country Rank
by Ratio
Couldn't get the table to come through, but what it says is we pay CEOs at a higher ratio to labor than other major industrial nations, 44 to 1, Japan the lowest at 16 to 1, way back in 2001. I'm quite sure it is worse now This ini can be found here:
http://myweb.dal.ca/osberg/classification/conference%20papers/Fair%20Inequality.pdf (http://myweb.dal.ca/osberg/classification/conference%20papers/Fair%20Inequality.pdf)
Notes:
1) Average of Total CEO Compensation from The Galt Global Review (1999)
and from BBC News (2001):UK- Galt = $US 700,000; BBC = £509,019
Japan - Galt = $US 425,000; BBC = £385,128
Germany - Galt = $US 500,000; BBC = £298,223
USA - Galt = $US 1,200,000; BBC = £992,974
2) The National Post Business Magazine's annual CEO Scorecard: average CEO
compensation of Canada's 150 biggest companies by their firms' three-year share-price return.
3) CEO compensation data for Australia, France & Sweden from BBC
The Galt Review: www.galtglobalreview.com/world/world_ceo_salaries.html (//http://) (//http://)
BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1456723.stm# (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1456723.stm#)
www.nationalpost.com/nationalpostbusiness/archives/20021105/story.html?id=C47FA126-D194-42F1-BDD4-247D44F89560 (//http://) (//http://)
(4) Manufacturing Pay:
Source: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/supptab.txt (http://ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/supptab.txt) (Table 5)
Annual Hours worked per person: www.dol.gov/ILAB/media/reports/oiea/chartbook/chart19.htm (//http://) (//http://)
Annual Hours worked per person in Canada: www.pbs.org/now/politics/workhours.html (//http://) (//http://)
Also read what Langanobob posted. There are many ways to reduce manufacturing cost besides cutting wages of American workers.
or as OPM describes it...all of the above is the "cost to government" to employ an individual for a given period of time (can be broken down yearly,monthly,by pay period, etc...)
with cost to government = how much it costs to (try and) get something accomplished.
I've gotten crap for it before but made in america means absolutely nothing to me.
There's an interesting documentary running on HBO about the NYC garment district that directly ties to the ideas in this thread. I liked it, although I would have liked them to dig deeper in the governmental policies rather than presenting surface criticism. How do you talk de-regulation without talking about Milton Freidman?
I still try to buy things made here for the quality and to support the country in which I live...
But I grow tired of the culture which praises 'LOW PRICES!' without thinking what it does to ones own country.
Perhaps some education to the masses is in order... and some trade laws to help try to balance the huge trade-imbalance.
I'm no expert and this is just my experiences and opinion.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on October 26, 2009, 07:07:16 AM
I still try to buy things made here for the quality and to support the country in which I live...
But I grow tired of the culture which praises 'LOW PRICES!' without thinking what it does to ones own country.
Perhaps some education to the masses is in order... and some trade laws to help try to balance the huge trade-imbalance.
I'm no expert and this is just my experiences and opinion.
+1
a lot of the "experts" are the problem. Theoretical economics are modeled, sometimes well. When they're put into the live world, issues arise. I'd give lots of examples of this, but economics and politics are kissing cousins and I don't want to violate anyone's rules.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on October 26, 2009, 07:07:16 AM
I still try to buy things made here for the quality and to support the country in which I live...
But I grow tired of the culture which praises 'LOW PRICES!' without thinking what it does to ones own country.
Perhaps some education to the masses is in order... and some trade laws to help try to balance the huge trade-imbalance.
I'm no expert and this is just my experiences and opinion.
Agreed. One other thing is accountability. Products made in China in particular sort of disappear into some nameless foreign industrial conglomerate with no reason to stand behind their products.
Also, they don't respect copyrights and intellectual property, which really rankles me.
Quote from: redxblack on October 26, 2009, 08:11:48 AM
a lot of the "experts" are the problem. Theoretical economics are modeled, sometimes well. When they're put into the live world, issues arise. I'd give lots of examples of this, but economics and politics are kissing cousins and I don't want to violate anyone's rules.
True and thanks for keeping this on track.
Some of this (again...my opinion) is based on the media's attention pointed to lower prices, spiraling costs, inflation and the coverage thereof.
Some more of this is based on the fact that since (I believe it was) 1969, the cost of living has out-paced wages paid to the average American forcing more people into a frenzy where more and more people are competing for less and less money.
More rats, less cheese.
(Stopping here b/c of the reasons above)
Quote from: B.Rock on October 26, 2009, 08:24:51 AM
Agreed. One other thing is accountability. Products made in China in particular sort of disappear into some nameless foreign industrial conglomerate with no reason to stand behind their products.
Also, they don't respect copyrights and intellectual property, which really rankles me.
Completely agree on both points B.Rock.
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on October 23, 2009, 02:21:25 AM
I've gotten crap for it before but made in america means absolutely nothing to me.
As I said, the money goes off shore anyway
^ A good portion of the net profits may go offshore anyway, I don't know, but I think more of the overall gross revenue stays than goes, including employee wages.
Quotefrom Duck Stew...I'd give lots of examples of this, but economics and politics are kissing cousins and I don't want to violate anyone's rules.
So far, this has been a fairly intelligent thread (especially considering that it's on NMC) [laugh] It's an important topic and I hope we can continue discussing this without getting in trouble.
(http://www.warrenkarlenzig.com/wp-content/plugins/hot-linked-image-cacher/upload/treehugger.com//Made-in-China-American-Flag.jpg)
Quote from: alfisti on October 26, 2009, 02:08:47 PM
(http://www.warrenkarlenzig.com/wp-content/plugins/hot-linked-image-cacher/upload/treehugger.com//Made-in-China-American-Flag.jpg)
Now that pisses me off. A bunch of "profit over all" company execs somewhere oughta be punched in the balls for that. >:(
One of the few things you can buy at wal mart that is made in the US -- American flags made in Pennsylvania.
Quote from: redxblack on October 26, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
One of the few things you can buy at wal mart that is made in the US -- American flags made in Pennsylvania.
[clap]
Quote from: redxblack on October 26, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
One of the few things you can buy at wal mart that is made in the US -- American flags made in Pennsylvania.
by illegal immigrants from guatemala and viet nam
Quote from: ducatiz on October 26, 2009, 07:46:12 PM
by illegal immigrants from guatemala and viet nam
is Kathy Lee still making stuff?
Quote from: bobspapa on October 26, 2009, 08:02:02 PM
is Kathy Lee still making stuff?
dicks everywhere wither
I remember a time when Wal-mart used to tout everything in their store (or most of it) was Made in the USA, with signs in the store, and TV ads with catchy tunes. That was before the Super WalMart boom of the 90s, one wonders what Sam Walton would think if he saw what his company had become.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/default.aspx?feat=1337558 (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/default.aspx?feat=1337558)
fix it again tony
Quote from: ducatiz on October 26, 2009, 08:32:34 PM
dicks everywhere wither
More worse
(http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/Hillary%20Clinton.jpg)
where boners go to die
Quote from: CraigD426 on October 27, 2009, 08:04:30 AM
I remember a time when Wal-mart used to tout everything in their store (or most of it) was Made in the USA, with signs in the store, and TV ads with catchy tunes. That was before the Super WalMart boom of the 90s, one wonders what Sam Walton would think if he saw what his company had become.
Yup. It was a real sense of American pride (or something like that) when you went into the store and saw the banners of some happy people in some town in some United State with the phrase '17 jobs created' or '41 jobs saved' and you knew 'Ol Sam was up to something good and big.
Then Sam passed away and Satan took over the company. No more banners and Sam's Club & Wal-Mart became the global whore-houses of low-priced imported bull-shit.
Quote from: CraigD426 on October 27, 2009, 08:04:30 AM
I remember a time when Wal-mart used to tout everything in their store (or most of it) was Made in the USA, with signs in the store, and TV ads with catchy tunes. That was before the Super WalMart boom of the 90s, one wonders what Sam Walton would think if he saw what his company had become.
Sam Walton STARTED the shift to Made in China stuff. He tried to protect the American textile industry for a while, but they couldn't compete for price and he eventually left them to die.
Quote from: bobspapa on October 27, 2009, 08:12:10 AM
where boners go to die
OMFG!!!! Yikes that's a boner-killin' face! [laugh]
Quote from: Obsessed? on October 27, 2009, 08:16:28 AM
Sam Walton STARTED the shift to Made in China stuff. He tried to protect the American textile industry for a while, but they couldn't compete for price and he eventually left them to die.
Really?!? Huh. I guess I missed that factoid....
Quote from: CraigD426 on October 27, 2009, 08:04:30 AM
one wonders what Sam Walton would think if he saw what his company had become.
+1. Sam was buying American at a time when many other companies were not. Does anyone remember the "look for the union label," "American cotton" and "made in the USA" tv commercials? Those were desperate attempts to keep American manufacturing afloat. Walton bought into the campaign. His company now is centered around the profit margin rather than the civic responsibility model of the founder.
I'm anticipating someone arguing that since it's a publicly traded company, it's beholden to the shareholders. When Sam owned it, he could do what he wanted. If that's the case, then maybe the government should revise the definition and responsibilities of a corporation.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on October 27, 2009, 08:15:49 AM
Yup. It was a real sense of American pride (or something like that) when you went into the store and saw the banners of some happy people in some town in some United State with the phrase '17 jobs created' or '41 jobs saved' and you knew 'Ol Sam was up to something good and big.
Then Sam passed away and Satan took over the company. No more banners and Sam's Club & Wal-Mart became the global whore-houses of low-priced imported bull-shit.
Now that you mention it I do remember the "jobs created" signs in the store, that was when it seemed like an "All-American" type store for the common people, now it's like a evil entity bent on global domination, anyone see the South Park episode when Wal-Mart came to town?
Quote from: redxblack on October 27, 2009, 08:20:41 AM
+1. Sam was buying American at a time when many other companies were not. Does anyone remember the "look for the union label," "American cotton" and "made in the USA" tv commercials? Those were desperate attempts to keep American manufacturing afloat. Walton bought into the campaign. His company now is centered around the profit margin rather than the civic responsibility model of the founder.
I'm anticipating someone arguing that since it's a publicly traded company, it's beholden to the shareholders. When Sam owned it, he could do what he wanted. If that's the case, then maybe the government should revise the definition and responsibilities of a corporation.
Why? Why when it is the American public that're largely responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs via their own personal greed regarding wages and benefits and their own unwillingness or ambivalence to buy American made products. One can bash corporation greed all they want, but one also needs to look in the mirror. As one of my grade school teachers once said, "remember when you point your finger at someone there're three fingers pointing back at YOU."
A basic function of free market capitalism is when everyone is buying brand X instead of brand Y, brand Y has the chioce of going out of business or emulating brand X. Watch how fast joe blow middle class dumps a stock or fund of brand Y out of their retirement account when it isn't performing up to their expectation. Then a few years later bashes corporate greed when they lose their job to overseas manufacturing, because they worked for a similar brand Y. When one has a 401k, IRA, etc even joe blow middle class is a shareholder. Damn greedy shareholders!
So yeah, I guess we should just go whining to goverment to punish those meanie brand X's in order to "fix" our own stupidity. Maybe just have government nationalize all corporations, you know, for the good of the community.
/redass
^
Drjones,
I think you are to some extent correct. And it's one thing for a company to go offshore in order to increase profits, but another case altogether when a company is forced to go offshore in order to survive at all. The problem is, that we are faced with a complex problem with no simple solution. Things that worked so well for us for so many years aren't working any more now that we're faced with low cost offshore labor.
I think the economy is in serious danger and is more of a problem than is generally recognized. Something needs to change and we need to adapt if we want to survive at anywhere near the level we are used to. It'll require personal sacrifice and I don't see that happening unless we really hit absolute rock bottom and the absolute need for it becomes obvious.
Quote from: redxblack on October 27, 2009, 08:20:41 AM
+1. Sam was buying American at a time when many other companies were not. Does anyone remember the "look for the union label,
Sam Walton was 100% anti union. He would never have put that in his store.
"Made in USA" doesn't do it for me. If I'm actually interested in buying a quality product, as opposed to the cheapest thing that "will do," then I'm going to look for whomever I think makes the best product in my budget. If that happens to be something American made, that's awesome. If not...
I think it's a damn shame that most of the products we purchase come from other nations, but it's to be expected. If every factory worker needs to be able to afford a nice house, and the American Dream, then of course we're going to be undercut by rising nations who can out-capitalism up. But protectionism, "Save out jobs!" mentality, and patriotism/jingoism isn't the correct way to address this.
I'm more than happy to buy quality American products, but I'm not going to buy into the party line that it makes me a bad person not to Buy From Home. If our country plans on being a producer of goods as well as a consumer, then we're going to have to start bringing real competition to table.
And, as someone said earlier, politics and economics go hand-in-hand, so I'd better stop. :P
QuoteAnd, as someone said earlier, politics and economics go hand-in-hand, so I'd better stop. Tongue
So far we've been courteous in our opinions and disagreements. If we can keep that up, maybe we can get away with this :) This has been an interesting thread and it'd be a shame if it gets locked.
I agree that jingoism doesn't work. I remember the car companies, at the peak of their junk producing years, leaning on the "Buy American" slogan. And, I work on international power plant construction projects and too often I've seen US made industrial products that are POS, complete with their ISO 9000 certification. A Made in USA label is no longer a reasonable guarantee of quality.
Like most problems there aren't any absolute rights or wrongs. And to some extent I think we are "bad persons" when we choose say a cheap HF tool over a more expensive US tool. Maybe we need to exert some individual discipline and made do with one good tool we can take pride in rather than two pieces of HF junk.
I'm not much good at analogies and this one is terrible but it's kind of like we're lighting our feet on fire so that we can be warm and comfortable. [bang]
Good enough analogy to convey the point man.
It's the hidden cost associated with cheap goods that people aren't seeing, don't care about, don't know about, etc...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on October 27, 2009, 01:44:12 PM
Good enough analogy to convey the point man.
It's the hidden cost associated with cheap goods that people aren't seeing, don't care about, don't know about, etc...
....and I'd be willing to bet based on personal observation that the vast majority of the mouth-breathers found at the local Wal-Mart at any given moment are too ignorant to realize the significance of or take note of.
Quote from: Speedbag on October 27, 2009, 02:53:47 PM
....and I'd be willing to bet based on personal observation that the vast majority of the mouth-breathers found at the local Wal-Mart at any given moment are too ignorant to realize the significance of or take note of.
I'll hoist an Italian glass of French Gin to that when I get home.... oh wait.... [roll]
This is a tricky subject but as the above poster stated: We've done a great job of keeping it civil thus far.
The US has dealt with a crashing economy in an era of inexpensive labor costs once before. Look at the 1890s. We produced domestically and had abundant inexpensive labor. The economy crashed because the producers could not afford to also be consumers and we were overproducing like mad (see all the strikes in that decade). The end result was incredible wealth and poverty, then external expansion in Cuba and the Philippines to create more markets for captive audiences for our widgets.
Fast forward a hundred years and look backwards. The problems in the 1890s depression (at the time called the Great Depression) led to progressive reforms and livable wages. When the workers could afford to buy their own products by the postwar period, the economy was sustained and growing. Certainly there were other factors (leftovers from the great depression of the 30s, postwar military spending, etc), but I really can't see anything wrong with companies supplying the workers they want to retain a livable wage. If it was just about profitability, we could easily justify utilizing slave labor. We make moral decisions in economics all the time.
Quote from: Speedbag on October 27, 2009, 02:53:47 PM
....and I'd be willing to bet based on personal observation that the vast majority of the mouth-breathers found at the local Wal-Mart at any given moment are too ignorant to realize the significance of or take note of.
And therein lies our problem. The overwhelming majority of us are candidates for the "People of Wal-mart" website. Aaaargh...