On the 696, I dont think I can trust the axle alignment marks alone to get a a good alignment. Im thinking of making an axle alignment tool with something that sticks out of the rear axle, and over the swingarm bolt connected by a cable that I can tighten to get a reading off of. Equal out both sides, and presto.. axle aligned. But it's got to be dead on, or at least consistent enough when I switch sides. Anyone have any good homebrew alignment methods?
There are two schools of thought on alignment: one is to align the rear wheel with the frame and front wheel, the other is to align the rear wheel to the chain and drivetrain. Neither requires much special tooling. If the bike is in reasonably good shape they should be about the same when you're done.
If you want to align the wheel to the frame get a nice long, straight board. Get the bike on a rear stand and turn the bars to center. Hold the board snugly against one side of the rear tire at two points of contact and measure from the front wheel to the board. Now check the other side. If the measurements aren't the same adjust accordingly.
Adjusting the rear wheel to the drivetrain is easier and what I usually do. Lay a straight edge along the rear sprocket and see if it follow the chain. A 1 foot ruler works just fine. If it veers away from the chain in one direction or another adjust accordingly.
It should be noted that the second method is preferred if you have an aluminum rear sprocket. A misaligned chain will eat an aluminum rear sprocket very quickly.
Scott
Another way, if you want it aligned with the frame is with a tape measure. Measure from the center of the swing arm pivot to the center of the axle on each side.
Simple enough. [thumbsup]
I like the straight-edge-on-the-sprocket idea. Perhaps the board clamped to the rear tire to x-ref..
+1 Howie
Swing arm pivot to rear axle for super accuracy.
Cheers.
Madalf.
Yes, swingarm pivot to rear axle pivot was what I was describing in my first post. But Im wondering if anyone has fabbed a tool to do this rather than buy one?
Quote from: animatronik on November 29, 2009, 06:23:40 PM
Yes, swingarm pivot to rear axle pivot was what I was describing in my first post. But Im wondering if anyone has fabbed a tool to do this rather than buy one?
I've never felt inclined to make my own tape measure. YMMV.
[roll]
I understand what measuring is and what you use to do it.
Simply put, I want to make this:
(http://www.muzzys.com/WheelAlignment/WheelAlignmentTool.jpg)
But not spend $150 bux on it.
Something accurate.
Where abouts did you see that?
yep I made something similar about 10/15 years ago...
I got 2 - 6"or 8" x 1/2" bolts (cant remember length off hand) and turned the head in a lathe so it was pointed (about 90deg)
then I drilled a hole in the threaded end and filed it square tho suit a length of key-steel.
I then put the nut on the bolt and screwed ot passed the square hole then put the key-steel through and lock it when the nut is screwed back on it. cost-- 2 bolts-- but use of a lathe is needed. I still use it... works well.
I can post pics if ya want, but its late here and I cant be bothered... :)
Quote from: animatronik on November 27, 2009, 10:12:42 AM
On the 696, I dont think I can trust the axle alignment marks alone to get a a good alignment.
any particular reason why you don't trust the alignment marks?
If you measure, you will often find the marks are off a wee bit. This is true of most chain driven bikes, not just Ducatis. Enough to cause a problem? Probably not, but, IMO, if you can be more accurate for minimum effort, why not.
Plus those steel alignment plates are not an exact fit and twist in opposite directions when you tighten the axle.
Howie, are some swingarms offset to one side? I could swear that from behind some bikes one side of the swingarm seems to sit farther out than the other. I guess this is to accomodate chains and sprockets, etc. but it's the reason I don't measure from axle to swingarm pivot. If one side is further out than the other then the measurements would not be the same.
Scott
Quote from: madalf71 on November 30, 2009, 02:31:26 AM
Where abouts did you see that?
Its made by Muzzys, http://www.muzzys.com/catalog/tools.html (http://www.muzzys.com/catalog/tools.html)
Quote from: scott_araujo on November 30, 2009, 09:20:20 AM
Plus those steel alignment plates are not an exact fit and twist in opposite directions when you tighten the axle.
Howie, are some swingarms offset to one side? I could swear that from behind some bikes one side of the swingarm seems to sit farther out than the other. I guess this is to accomodate chains and sprockets, etc. but it's the reason I don't measure from axle to swingarm pivot. If one side is further out than the other then the measurements would not be the same.
Scott
Yeah, I was thinking about this too..
It seems the straight edge on sprocket + the string/board method would probably yield accurate(enough) results.. I was just wondering if anyone had built a tool that somewhat resembles a vernier caliper that will mount centered and 90o on the rear axle, to get a reading that is truly accurate.
On another board, I found someone is getting very good results using something similar to Scott's board method.. It involves fishing line [laugh] http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/sportryderswheelalignmentmethod.shtml (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/sportryderswheelalignmentmethod.shtml)
Yeah, fishing line/or string works very well and is easier to handle than a board. Forgot about that.
Accurate enough is relative and subjective. Each method has it's pros and cons.
Scott
Quote from: corey on November 30, 2009, 04:13:18 AM
any particular reason why you don't trust the alignment marks?
I don't trust the alignment marks when I see the axle plate shift by up to a millimeter when I tighten the bolts. It's one of the worst I've ever seen. The typical motocross bike is much more accurate and easy to get aligned properly. And my XR650L has snail adjusters where all you need to do is get both sides clicked into the same setting and you're good.
I normally use a tape measure and occasionally the string method when lining things up on my bike. Although I've found that I can just eyeball it and get about the same accuracy.
I want my front and rear tires aligned with each other, I don't care about the sprockets if the tires aren't aligned properly. But you can always shim the sprockets if they're not lined up when the wheels ARE in line. It seems kind of stupid to me to ride a bike where the sprockets are aligned but the wheels aren't. Surely you'll get strange handling that way. At a minimum left turns and right turns won't behave the same.
Quote from: corey on November 30, 2009, 04:13:18 AM
any particular reason why you don't trust the alignment marks?
They're notoriously innaccurate. Line 'em up sometime and then use a tape measure or some other device. The alignment will be off.
I get a better alignment by looking down chain and over the rear sprocket and eyeballing it than by using the marks. In fact, eyeballing it is my method of choice. That said, sometimes I'll use a piece of bar stock against the rear sprocket, but most of the time, I just eyeball. Works fine for my monster and has worked just as well with my race bikes.
Quote from: scott_araujo on November 30, 2009, 09:20:20 AM
<snip>
Howie, are some swingarms offset to one side? I could swear that from behind some bikes one side of the swingarm seems to sit farther out than the other. I guess this is to accomodate chains and sprockets, etc. but it's the reason I don't measure from axle to swingarm pivot. If one side is further out than the other then the measurements would not be the same.
Scott
Good question. In theory or reality? Since manufacturing tolerances are less than perfect either or both can be off, aligning the sprockets or the wheels or splitting the difference is your choice. Most shops will just use the marks on the swing arm and call it a day.
Not talking theory here, or a few mm in manufacturing tolerance. I mean looking at the rear and seeing that one side of the swingarm is out from it's pivot notably more than the other on purpose. Maybe the pivot on the drive side is more inboard to make room for the chain. Maybe the tail end is outboard more on one side to fit the brake. Gotta go down to the local shop and look at the tail end of some bikes. Maybe I'm misremembering.
And part of the reason I try to do all my own maintenance is because of the practices of 'most shops'. ;)
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 01, 2009, 03:56:05 AM
Not talking theory here, or a few mm in manufacturing tolerance. I mean looking at the rear and seeing that one side of the swingarm is out from it's pivot notably more than the other on purpose. Maybe the pivot on the drive side is more inboard to make room for the chain. Maybe the tail end is outboard more on one side to fit the brake. Gotta go down to the local shop and look at the tail end of some bikes. Maybe I'm misremembering.
And part of the reason I try to do all my own maintenance is because of the practices of 'most shops'. ;)
Scott
BMW does that on purpose on some models, other manufactures may also. I thought you were talking about our Monsters.
Original question was Monsters, but I was speaking in general terms.
Scott
Quote from: monsta on November 30, 2009, 03:58:18 AM
I can post pics if ya want, but its late here and I cant be bothered... :)
ok, heres a pic. I guess insted of square key steel you could use something round, so's that you dont have to file the hole square that the bolts slide up and down on...
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/Monsta900/tool.jpg?t=1259753374)
Thats really cool! It looks like for the points I could use dies from a pipe flaring tool...have no idea where to source those parts tho. And perhaps instead of using bolts I can use 2 piece threaded rods attached with long couplers to change the length..
ideas churning..... thanks!
Quote from: scott_araujo on November 30, 2009, 09:20:20 AM
Plus those steel alignment plates are not an exact fit and twist in opposite directions when you tighten the axle.
Howie, are some swingarms offset to one side? I could swear that from behind some bikes one side of the swingarm seems to sit farther out than the other. I guess this is to accomodate chains and sprockets, etc. but it's the reason I don't measure from axle to swingarm pivot. If one side is further out than the other then the measurements would not be the same.
Scott
I was thinking the same thing a while back. The DSS swingers are off set on the sprocket side.
I still use the measuring tape method, and it's been working fine so far on the DSS bikes I've worked on.
This is one reason I'll be sticking with SSS bikes for a while...
I've always used an aluminum yardstick. With the straight edge against the tire, it's readily apparent if the wheel and the chain don't line up over the span of 3 feet.
You could just buy a set of Trammels from home depot for just under $30, and slap them on a board. Align them on one side by moving them clsoer together and farther apart, and then just move the arrangment to the other side, and adjust until both sides match up. Thats what I would do, that super expensive tool just lloks like a board with sliding trammels on it to me.
The Doc