Ever since I replaced my rear spring I've been leaking gas.
I think it's leaking from where the hinge connects to the tank, but I'm not sure.
:-\
- Is there a way to find the leak without removing the tank?
- What's the best way to fix it?
- Is jb weld an option, or at least a temporary one?
- Should I even ride with it leaking?
- I just filled it up, too, so should I drain it before removing it?
- Is there a trick to draining it?
???
Quote from: Michael on December 02, 2009, 08:13:41 AM
Ever since I replaced my rear spring I've been leaking gas.
I think it's leaking from where the hinge connects to the tank, but I'm not sure.
:-\
- Is there a way to find the leak without removing the tank?
Clean the area well and observe, if that is not enough, spray the area with aerosol powder. The staining will lead you to the leak
- What's the best way to fix it?
Braize the area and treat with POR 15, or send the tank to ducpainter.
- Is jb weld an option, or at least a temporary one?
Temporary
- Should I even ride with it leaking?
Up to you, if the leak is small and the area around it seems strong, maybe. Otherwise, thik of "Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire".
- I just filled it up, too, so should I drain it before removing it?
Yes.
- Is there a trick to draining it?
???
Small electmic transfer pump, siphon, turn bike upside down. OK, the last was not a good idea
Finding the source must be a good place to start.
When you worked on your spring video, are you sure you didn't pinch a fuel line? Or if some overflow gas found some mysterious ways to the area where it now appears?
I don't know what I'm talking about, just adding my thoughts ;)
Leaks from the hinge area are fairly common, but best to track it down to avoid unnecessary effort.
I wouldn't JB weld it, as it may make the eventual brazing repair a good bit more difficult.
I've never had to deal with JB weld, so YMMV.
Ducpainter likely has, so his feedback on it would be good to follow.
I use a squeeze-bulb siphon, they're available from Boat shops.
The usual warnings apply here, no open flames nearby... includes gas water heaters and the like....
* UPDATE *
So this morning I went out to find a large pool of gasoline under the motorcycle. I think the leak is worse than I thought.
I wanted to look to find the source of the leak, but it's hard to see really close up in there. My flashlight doesn't work, so I thought about lighting a match to see better. Maybe I'll do that after lunch.
Seriously though, I've been trying to find the source, but it's difficult. There's no visible crack.
However, I think I've ruled out any hoses or other connections leaking. I think it's coming right from where the hinge meets the tank.
:-\
Well then, good news ..... fuel tanks are safety related, safety is important and you're allowed to spend when safety depends on it [thumbsup]
http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=1355%7CMonster%20Body%2C%20Windscreens%2C%20Fuel%20Caps%2C%20%26%20Mirrors&productID=47&showDetail=1&categoryID=24 (http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=1355%7CMonster%20Body%2C%20Windscreens%2C%20Fuel%20Caps%2C%20%26%20Mirrors&productID=47&showDetail=1&categoryID=24)|Monster%20600%2F1000%20S2R%2FS4R%20Carbon%20Fiber&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168%7CEuropean%20Motorcycle%20Parts
I don't know how much a repair will cost, but subtract that from the MotoWheel price and the add the substantial bling gain. If it was me, I would be all over my credit card 8)
Quote from: stopintime on December 02, 2009, 10:11:11 AM
I don't know how much a repair will cost, but subtract that from the MotoWheel price and the add the substantial bling gain. If it was me, I would be all over my credit card 8)
Well, if you want, I'd be more than happy to let you pay for it. [thumbsup]
I don't think I want a carbon fiber gas tank, though.
I'm just hoping I can get my tank fixed without having to redo the paint.
Quote from: Michael on December 02, 2009, 11:02:07 AM
~snip~
I'm just hoping I can get my tank fixed without having to redo the paint.
Yes, that can be done.
Minor amount of paint removed at the lower rear edge, the seat covers it.
Quote from: Speeddog on December 02, 2009, 11:27:09 AM
Yes, that can be done.
Minor amount of paint removed at the lower rear edge, the seat covers it.
Yup...
do it all the time.
Ducpainter, what do you think about JB Weld? Would that destroy any chances of getting it fixed properly?
Where does POR 15 come into play?
Is this something that I can do myself? On a difficulty scale of 1 to 5, where would you put this?
Quote from: Michael on December 02, 2009, 12:01:14 PM
Ducpainter, what do you think about JB Weld? Would that destroy any chances of getting it fixed properly?
Where does POR 15 come into play?
Is this something that I can do myself? On a scale of 1 to 5, where would you put this?
No...
It does require more heat to burn all the JB Weld off after it starts leaking again though...and they usually do. That will lead to more heat damage of the paint on the top side.
The POR goes in the tank after brazing to eliminate rust, and to ensure it will never leak again.
If you JB weld it make certain to remove
all the paint around the hinge plate and use the JB weld all the way around.
Don't use POR until after you braze it. It will make a mess when you have to braze afterward.
Had the same problem just this spring. Like yours, I had trouble telling where it was coming from.
http://picasaweb.google.com/scottaraujo/DucatiTankBrazing# (http://picasaweb.google.com/scottaraujo/DucatiTankBrazing#)
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22804.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22804.0)
I was able to find a shop that could braze the area without the need to repaint the entire tank, just had to touch up the area they worked on which I did with a rattle can. It's all under the seat and unseen. It cost me $105. It's a scary reapair but not as bad as you think. Once it's fixed right you shouldn't have to worry about it again.
To pinpoint the leak drain it to about 1/3 full, pop the seat, and pivot it straight up. Then wipe it down and spray near the hinge with foot powder (cleans off with water). You'll probably see it really quick if it's the hinge. There may be no visible crack. It's usually one of the spot welds under the hinge plate that cracks. Not visible.
Just guessing, did you have the tank propped up while mostly full a lot while working on you rear spring? That kind of pressure is what causes the tank hinge to crack and leak.
Big tip: if you remove and re-install the tank innards yourself remember to grease the fuel pump before putting it back in. It makes it SO much easier to get it into the clip. Best tip I received while doing this repair.
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 02, 2009, 12:22:25 PM
Had the same problem just this spring. Like yours, I had trouble telling where it was coming from.
http://picasaweb.google.com/scottaraujo/DucatiTankBrazing# (http://picasaweb.google.com/scottaraujo/DucatiTankBrazing#)
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22804.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=22804.0)
I was able to find a shop that could braze the area without the need to repaint the entire tank, just had to touch up the area they worked on which I did with a rattle can. It's all under the seat and unseen. It cost me $105. It's a scary reapair but not as bad as you think. Once it's fixed right you shouldn't have to worry about it again.
To pinpoint the leak drain it to about 1/3 full, pop the seat, and pivot it straight up. Then wipe it down and spray near the hinge with foot powder (cleans off with water). You'll probably see it really quick if it's the hinge. There may be no visible crack. It's usually one of the spot welds under the hinge plate that cracks. Not visible.
Just guessing, did you have the tank propped up while mostly full a lot while working on you rear spring? That kind of pressure is what causes the tank hinge to crack and leak.
Big tip: if you remove and re-install the tank innards yourself remember to grease the fuel pump before putting it back in. It makes it SO much easier to get it into the clip. Best tip I received while doing this repair.
Scott
That shop didn't coat it also, or sandblast and prime the heat affected zone for that price did they?
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 02, 2009, 12:22:25 PM
Just guessing, did you have the tank propped up while mostly full a lot while working on you rear spring? That kind of pressure is what causes the tank hinge to crack and leak.
Yes and no. I kept the tank down while replacing the spring.
However, after I was completely done with the spring, I had one more screw to put in to hold the little air box in place. I raised the tank to get to it and while trying to get the screw in, the tank fell down on my hand right near the hinge. I did have the tank propped up, but because the bike was still suspended it wiggled a lot and the tank got loose.
My hand is sliced and swollen, but no broken bones. And ya ... the tank was full.
But I should point out that I noticed a small leak before that, but then afterwords a lot more was leaking.
So ... I think that's how it happened.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 02, 2009, 12:26:23 PM
That shop didn't coat it also, or sandblast and prime the heat affected zone for that price did they?
They sandblasted the outside where they did the repair to do the repair, nothing past that. I don't remember if they offered to paint it but I probably would have turned it down. It'a a radiator shop, not a body shop. Just a little overspray and I'd be looking at respraying the whole tank to 'fix' it. No thanks. I was happy they fixed it without destroying any visible paint. The first shop (same name, diff location) said they had to throw the whole tank into caustic solution and I'd just have to get the whole thing repainted. Needless to say I went to the other location for a second opinion.
I picked it up, cleaned and painted it right away on the outside with a scotchbrite pad, acetone, and rattle can primer and paint. DP, I think we had discussed in another thread that without some kind of coating inside the tank the metal there is now more susceptible to rust so I'm keeping an eye on it, lest it rot through from the indside. Maybe that'll be my winter project.
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 02, 2009, 02:26:56 PM
They sandblasted the outside where they did the repair to do the repair, nothing past that. I don't remember if they offered to paint it but I probably would have turned it down. It'a a radiator shop, not a body shop. Just a little overspray and I'd be looking at respraying the whole tank to 'fix' it. No thanks. I was happy they fixed it without destroying any visible paint. The first shop (same name, diff location) said they had to throw the whole tank into caustic solution and I'd just have to get the whole thing repainted. Needless to say I went to the other location for a second opinion.
I picked it up, cleaned and painted it right away on the outside with a scotchbrite pad, acetone, and rattle can primer and paint. DP, I think we had discussed in another thread that without some kind of coating inside the tank the metal there is now more susceptible to rust so I'm keeping an eye on it, lest it rot through from the indside. Maybe that'll be my winter project.
Scott
Yes it is more susceptible to rust.
Don't over think it Scott...
coat the tank. ;)
It's still sunny enough to ride to work. January ;)
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 02, 2009, 03:36:02 PM
It's still sunny enough to ride to work. January ;)
whisky tango foxtrot (http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/confused.gif)
Quote from: ducpainter on December 02, 2009, 02:35:42 PM
Yes it is more susceptible to rust.
Don't over think it Scott...
coat the tank. ;)
ducpainter, when you say "coat the tank", you mean inside with POR 15, right?
Would POR 15 go on the outside at all, or just just put primer and pain after the brazing?
:)
I'll go out on a pretty stout limb here...
Yes, coating the inside with POR15.
Primer and paint on the outside.
Slight threadjack (sorry Michael).
I'm planning on doing the tank hinge "mod" this winter. Question is, does the hinge need to be brazed, or can I MIG weld it? I have a MIG welder at work, but I haven't done any brazing since high school
End slight threadjack.
I've seen a tank that was TIG welded.
I wouldn't recommend MIG welding a tank, they're quite thin.
Quote from: mojo on December 02, 2009, 06:22:36 PM
Slight threadjack (sorry Michael).
I'm planning on doing the tank hinge "mod" this winter. Question is, does the hinge need to be brazed, or can I MIG weld it? I have a MIG welder at work, but I haven't done any brazing since high school
End slight threadjack.
NP -- It just seemed like a very random comment on the weather. I see now how it was in context.
Anyway, why is brazing better than regular welding? Is regular welding to hot? And would TIG welding be better or easier?
The weld process used is really inconsequential, although oxy-acetylene would require way too much heat.
The idea is to add weld to take the stress off the spot welds.
I use brass because it's sufficient to accomplish the job and looks good when primed or painted without any finishing of the weld.
* UPDATE *
So I've removed the tank.
It was pretty easy to do. I wish I had done it right away now, so there wouldn't be so much fuel leaked. I don't mind the gasoline smell in the garage (it makes it smell like a real garage), but my wife isn't too happy with the smell that is lingering in the laundry room and kitchen (can't blame her).
Draining:
- Very easy. After disconnecting the fuel filter line, it all just poured out nicely. And it wasn't messy at all, I just plugged the hole with my finger until I got it over to my gas can.
Cleaning:
- Once drained, I cleaned the outside with a little soap and water so that no gas was left on the paint.
Fuel pump:
- The fuel pump is not inside the tank, so no "innards" need to be removed except for the level sensor (unless I'm totally missing something).
Now it's just sitting in my garage. I have a friend of a friend that might help with the welding. I mean, he's a professional, but he might hook me up with some inexpensive brazing.
Nope, my mistake. I've got the newer fuel injection with the fuel filter and pump inside the tank. I think you have carbs and there's less in there, and mounted differently. Still, go to the Ducati website, get the exploded diagram for your bike, and make sure you remove everything in the tank. They're going to run caustic through it and also get it pretty hot when the braze/weld it. You don't want anything that can get damaged or catch fire in there.
Scott
Some photos ...
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/gas-tank-1.jpg)
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/gas-tank-2.jpg)
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/gas-tank-3.jpg)
Doh [bang] Your bike is old enough that it still has the drain plug.
Wow ... check this out:
Recall ID
#30894 - FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:DELIVERY:HOSES, LINES/PIPING, AND FITTINGS
Component
FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:DELIVERY:HOSES, LINES/PIPING, AND FITTINGS
Recall Date
MAR 11, 1999
Motorcycle Affected
1996 DUCATI M900
Summary
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: MOTORCYCLES. THE FUEL LINE CONNECTING THE FUEL FILTER AND FUEL COCK CAN LEAK.
Consequence
FUEL LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE CAN RESULT IN A FIRE.
Remedy
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THIS FUEL LINE.
* UPDATE *
So, I called the dealer, and according to my VIN, I'm not eligible for any part replacements.
Oh well.
[roll]
Figured out if it's a crack leaking or something else?
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 03, 2009, 02:04:14 PM
Figured out if it's a crack leaking or something else?
Scott
I'm glad you asked ...
So, having removed the tank, I wanted to try and find the location of the leak. Being the ingenuitive guy that I am, I used baby powder on the tank near the hinge and filled the tank in hopes to find the leak. I didn't fill it up all of the way, but about a pint.
Anyway ... no leak.
Add another pint.
Still no leak.
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/confused.gif)
Now I don't know what to do.
Any ideas?
???
Use aerosol spray powder.
It sticks to the surface better,
Reinstall the sender before hand and spray that area also.
Plug the fuel line...the one on the side, and put about a gallon of gas in there.
You should be able to stand the tank on the hinge and see the leak.
If not examine your lines closely.
I fixed my hinge leak w epoxy.
Emptied tank, careful cleaning/wetsanding, then epoxy. Cured f 3 days.
7 years ago, still working.
It must be the slower, 24 hour Araldite:
http://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_34/section34_04_files/image003.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_34/section34_04.htm&h=441&w=281&sz=30&tbnid=Nk8-O511B1mTWM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daraldite&hl=sv&usg=__k8PMyaZIm7veFhHbRgDWDXegonE=&ei=3i4ZS9LWDYfe-QbykKzYDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwBA (http://www.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_34/section34_04_files/image003.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_34/section34_04.htm&h=441&w=281&sz=30&tbnid=Nk8-O511B1mTWM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3Daraldite&hl=sv&usg=__k8PMyaZIm7veFhHbRgDWDXegonE=&ei=3i4ZS9LWDYfe-QbykKzYDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwBA)
What DP said. Alternatively, you can empty the tank and take it to a radiator shop to have them look for the leak. They usually do a pressure test after the repair to check it anyway. Should be pretty inexpensive.
Scott
I really appreciate all of the help that you guys have given me.
For the testing, I think baby powder is good enough. My problem is that I couldn't get it to leak at all. However, I didn't have it resting on the hinge; I had tested the tank after I took it off.
I'm going to hook it back into the hinge and test it then (I'm guessing the pressure and angle of how it sits when installed puts stress on the would-be crack). I'll let you know how that goes.
A radiator shop is an excellent suggestion. I would have never thought of that. And if the leak isn't serious, then I'm considering just using epoxy or JB Weld. I don't know ....
As it is now, it depends on how my second attempt at testing goes.
One question ....
Below is a close-up shot of my tank hinge area. I've made it black/white except for the area around the hinge.
Now, I'm assuming that (if it leaks at all) the leak will come from somewhere round that second plate -- where it's not black/white in the image below. Is that correct?
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/close-up-hinge.jpg)
Having recently been through this, considered using epoxy/JB, considered brazing myself, and finally deciding to have a shop do it I'd say go to a shop and get it done right the first time.
Think about the hassle you're going through now and the safety issue of gasoline puddles in your garage. Do you want to go through this again at some random time if the patch fails? I didn't. Also, while some people have good results with applying some kind of goop it seems many if not most crack through again.
I listened to DP and the others and got it brazed. I am really happy I did for the peace of mind.
Scott
If the hinge is leaking that's where it will come from.
You can't find a leak near the hinge in a Monster tank with a quart of fuel in the tank.
There are other places it can leak...
but you won't necessarily find them using dry baby powder.
I do have to say it's somewhat amusing that you ask for suggestions and then decide your way is good enough.
Good luck.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 04, 2009, 11:47:20 AM
If the hinge is leaking that's where it will come from.
You can't find a leak near the hinge in a Monster tank with a quart of fuel in the tank.
There are other places it can leak...
but you won't necessarily find them using dry baby powder.
I do have to say it's somewhat amusing that you ask for suggestions and then decide your way is good enough.
Good luck.
I believe you that spray powder would be superior, but I just don't own any.
Keep in mind that the leak I'm looking for is very big. Before I removed the tank, the gasoline was at a constant drip out the bottom. So it "shouldn't" take much to identify the location. But if I can't find the leak with my baby powder, then I'll go buy a can of the good stuff.
And I appreciate all of the advice regarding JB Weld/epoxy vs brazing. Scott makes a good point -- do it once, do it right. I'm waiting to hear back from my welder friend-of-a-friend, so we'll see.
Anyway, I'll be doing another test with more in the tank and with the tank back on the hinge.
I really do appreciate the help.
Don't disregard other sources of the leak.
Your pics suggested, to me anyway, that the sender might be the source.
My 96 has a steel nut on the sender. If yours is original it should too. If it is already a replacement they were plastic for quite a while, and prone to cracking.
Also, even though it's a pain to drain out, don't be skimpy with the gas for testing. The lower parts of a monster tank will swallow quite a bit if you hold the tank flat.
Spray on foot powder is available at every drug store for a few dollars.
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on December 04, 2009, 01:56:08 PM
Spray on foot powder is available at every drug store for a few dollars.
Scott
That was my thought too.
Gobble gobble gee
and gobble gobble goses.
I sure hope the leak is
in one of your hoses.
The harsh U-turn rubber hose out off the tank could be lraking in/out of filter,
if abrupt turn on it & bad quality hose, as leak might well occur.
* UPDATE *
Well, I put everything back together, got out my trusty baby powder, and .... two gallons later ... absolutely zero leaks.
So ... as far as I can tell ... baby powder fixed the leak!!!
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/confused.gif)
Seriously though, no more leak. And I'm having a hard time believing that it was just a loose nut, but what else could it be?
(http://www.lovelovemedo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/johnsons-baby-powder.jpg)
Quote from: Michael on December 04, 2009, 08:36:21 PM
* UPDATE *
Well, I put everything back together, got out my trusty baby powder, and .... two gallons later ... absolutely zero leaks.
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/confused.gif)
Hmmm... that's not good.
If you have an old nail laying around, put that against the (not?) affected area, tap on it with a medium sized rubber mallet. Apply baby powder and wiggle the nail around in it's hole - there's your leak [thumbsup]
Question:
When testing for leaks, would it matter if I plugged the two small hose openings, even if I had the gas cap open?
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/gas-tank-diagram.jpg)
Quote from: Michael on December 05, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
Question:
When testing for leaks, would it matter if I plugged the two small hose openings, even if I had the gas cap open?
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/gas-tank-diagram.jpg)
Exactly what are you thinking?
Those tubes are for the cap area drain and the vapor canister. Fuel should
never come out of those unless you over fill or lift the tank with a full load.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2009, 01:37:45 PM
Exactly what are you thinking?
When I tested for leaks the first time, the tank was off of the motorcycle and I used a few pieces of duct tape to cover those. I wasn't worried about gas coming out, but rather baby powder getting in.
And then when I tested a second time, with the tank back on the motorcycle and connected to the hinge, I didn't re-attach the hoses to those things; I just left the tape on.
So ... I was thinking, maybe I can't find the leak because I sealed off the air opening. Kind of like when you hold the top of a straw and then pull it out of your drink.
Keep in mind I'm trying to troubleshoot this issue by exploring the only differences I could find between when it was leaking before and now when it's not leaking at all.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2009, 01:37:45 PM
Those tubes are for the cap area drain and the vapor canister. Fuel should never come out of those unless you over fill or lift the tank with a full load.
Here's what's funny ... um ... I did, right before the leak got bad, lift the tank when it was full.
In fact ... I lifted it a few times, briefly, during my whole spring project. And wouldn't you know it, I noticed the leak getting worse and worse throughout the project until the last lift when it got really bad.
And thinking back, the fuel coming out never increase in flow, but rather just increased in duration.
So ....
Why wasn't there just fuel coming out the bottom and not all around the hinge you ask?
Well, one of those hoses was split at the top. In fact, when I was removing it, it practically fell off.
(http://www.bestdesignever.com/ducati/cracked-hose.jpg)
Possible source of leak:- cracked overflow hose
[roll]
I feel both stupid and glad.
Possible....
but if the tank was down overnight when you found your puddle on the floor...
not likely.