I hope I do not confuse anybody with this picture... the two pieces in my hand were not from the same place.
The "J" looking piece of metal on the left was on the drain bolt.
The magnet on the right was on the oil filter.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2625/4167087576_bd15d5b309_b.jpg)
This is the first oil change I did. I bought bike with 3500 miles and the previous owner had just changed the oil. The bike now has about 6700 miles and runs fine. One time about 800 - 1000 miles ago, the bike got stuck in neutral (actually I think it was in between gears if that makes sense), but some playing with the clutch and varies rev's and it quickly "un-locked" itself and has been perfect and not happened again since.
Anyway... What is the big J piece of metal???
I'm curious about the magnet on the side of the filter too... but that does not concern me as much as the big hunk of metal.
There were no shavings on the drain magnet (just the piece of metal in the picture) and the oil screen was clean.
My guess is that is a piece of your shift fork return spring. You might want to take the cover off and take a look.
Surprised it even shifted at all.. but yes, looks like piece of spring
Quote from: John1454 on December 07, 2009, 09:07:51 AM
I'm curious about the magnet on the side of the filter too... but that does not concern me as much as the big hunk of metal.
Some people put magnets on the oil filter to attract and trap metal shavings inside the filter itself.
Quote from: pennyrobber on December 07, 2009, 12:25:57 PM
Some people put magnets on the oil filter to attract and trap metal shavings inside the filter itself.
... it is news to me... but since finding it, I googled it, and it looks like something people do... however, the magnet I found was so small, it is hard to believe it would be strong enough (from the outside) to do anything. Maybe that was the previous owners intentions though.
Quote from: Duckintime on December 07, 2009, 11:49:04 AM
Surprised it even shifted at all.. but yes, looks like piece of spring
Quote from: howie on December 07, 2009, 11:34:12 AM
My guess is that is a piece of your shift fork return spring. You might want to take the cover off and take a look.
I have already put oil back in it... so I can't take the cover off (I guess I should have done that before I put oil back in). But my bike has been shifting fine, so I'm not too worried. I did have that one issue as I mentioned above, but that was many miles ago.
I'm not a mechanic, and would have been intimidated to take the engine apart to see the inside and do more investigating... so I just went ahead and finished the oil change since it has been shifting / riding fine.
But I now have issues starting the bike: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=32707.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=32707.0)
.. it just isn't my day I guess.
just drain the oil into a container, you need to see what's going on. engines don't just shit out pieces of metal as part of their morning constitutions, its a sign that something is not right. Now's not a good time to get cheap.
Quote from: John1454 on December 07, 2009, 12:49:39 PM
I have already put oil back in it... so I can't take the cover off (I guess I should have done that before I put oil back in).
If only your engine had some kind of "drain" that would allow you to remove the oil from within.
;)
I agree with Michigan, you can't just not check that out.
Quote from: howie on December 07, 2009, 11:34:12 AM
My guess is that is a piece of your shift fork return spring. You might want to take the cover off and take a look.
+1 looks like the piece my bike shit out about 25000 miles ago. It's and easy fix, but you gotta drain the oil and remove the left case cover, etc.
okay I'm going to remove the cover this afternoon.
Dumb question: Do I need to drain the clutch fluid and remove the "clutch transmission unit" to remove the cover.... Or if/can I leave that attached to the cover will the clutch fluid stay sealed?
And... in thinking about it, it looks like the right side cover would be easier to remove... any reason you suggested the left?
does the left show more or is the broken piece more likely to be on the left side???
Thank you everyone for your help!!!
BTW, this is a 2003 620 if that makes any difference.
You can't like...see through the engine if you remove just one cover, they access different areas. The clutch "fluid" is just your motor oil btw so like ato memphis suggested you can catch it in a very clean container and reuse if you want. Pompetta suggests the left case cover which you usually need a puller for, you can use something like a steering wheel puller from autozone or the like.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29511.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29511.0)
if the clutch fluid you are referring to is the hydraulic fluid, just pull the three bolts for the slave cylinder and let it dangle out of the way somewhere (i suggest zip tie to the frame out of the way while you are working). If you don't touch the clutch lever, then you are fine.
obviously you'll have to also remove the shift linkage from the gear selector rod that protrudes (one bolt).
the alternator case cover comes off easy by removing all the bolts that go around it (take the sprocket cover off and remove the bolt that hides below it too, but you'll be leaving your sprocket and the like alone).
then remove the little alternator access cover, and use the cheap tool (got mine from Slingshot Racing for my lightweight flywheel install) and the whole cover should 'pop' off. Make sure to clean the old gasket stuff off well before putting it all back together.
- EDIT:
I looked at the parts fiche on the commoto website. I believe this is on the clutch side. Not the alternator side. Part 20 of page 12/13 of the 2003 Monster 620 manual. You can buy an upgraded shift arm and it will come with a new spring (I believe) from Factory Pro so you can feel good about going through all this hassle.
To remove the ride side cover, you don't even touch the cluch slave or any of the like.
(http://www.factorypro.com/images/ShiftKits/shift_pro_D748.jpg)
Quote from: ato memphis on December 08, 2009, 09:47:44 AM
if the clutch fluid you are referring to is the hydraulic fluid, just pull the three bolts for the slave cylinder and let it dangle out of the way somewhere (i suggest zip tie to the frame out of the way while you are working). If you don't touch the clutch lever, then you are fine.
Thank You!
............ Okay, I'm going to go take it off now. I do not have a puller. But once I get to that point if I can't get it off I will get one at pep boys; which is literally just down the street from my house.
Once I get it all opened up, if I can't see where the broken piece came from, I will post a picture and we can have a "Where's the Broken Piece" version of "Where's Waldo". haha
Thanks for your help and encouragement everyone.
Just take your time. Rushing with the cases open is a good way to say "wonder where that screw driver went"
Quote from: ato memphis on December 08, 2009, 09:47:44 AM
- EDIT:
I looked at the parts fiche on the commoto website. I believe this is on the clutch side. Not the alternator side. Part 20 of page 12/13 of the 2003 Monster 620 manual. You can buy an upgraded shift arm and it will come with a new spring (I believe) from Factory Pro so you can feel good about going through all this hassle.
To remove the ride side cover, you don't even touch the cluch slave or any of the like.
Well I'm glad I haven't left to go remove it yet.... Thanks for your help. I think I will start with the right side; as based on your research / that picture, I believe there is a very good chance that the piece I found is the last little bit of that spring (where it curves down).
Quote from: John1454 on December 08, 2009, 10:29:11 AM
Well I'm glad I haven't left to go remove it yet.... Thanks for your help. I think I will start with the right side; as based on your research / that picture, I believe there is a very good chance that the piece I found is the last little bit of that spring (where it curves down).
Go for the left side cover.
Shifter springs break more frequently.
I've seen several.
I've never seen a detent spring broken (that's on the right side, the one that ato memphis posted pic of).
I don't think the bike would be rideable with a broken detent spring.
trust speed, he knows more than i do.
(http://www.fokust.com/albums/nichols_install/Flywheel_009.jpg)
Could it be that spring, in the middle of the hinged arm?
too late, I already have the right side cover off... I didn't see anything and was just about to remove the clutch to get to the detent spring.... but maybe instead of removing the clutch, I will switch to the left side.
I need a computer (or laptop) in my garage to keep up with the updates to this thread... hahaha
Well you can't hurt anything simply by looking and weather has been shitty as of late, at least in north texas.
Quote from: ato memphis on December 08, 2009, 11:57:17 AM
~snip~
Could it be that spring, in the middle of the hinged arm?
Yeah, that's the one.
The bike will usually shift normally for a while, but will it eventually jam.
broke that spring..
and jammed in 3rd, easy fix..
pull the stock flywheel, get a liteweight.
replace spring. put lite flywheel on.
tourque, put gue on cover, instal..
replace oil.. enjoy
Quote from: ato memphis on December 08, 2009, 11:57:17 AM
(http://www.fokust.com/albums/nichols_install/Flywheel_009.jpg)
Could it be that spring, in the middle of the hinged arm?
+1 on the lightweight flywheel. I'm so glad I did this. If the cover is coming off, you might as well ;)
Since you pulled right right side off, if its still sitting around somewhere, you might find yourself with a powdercoating opportunity should you want to change the colors of some parts.
Remember, when you put that cover back on, torque the bolts properly. You are dealing with aluminum, so Incredible-Hulking these on will just result in stripped threads.
Left cover is off. And it is the spring as in the picture above. I need to remove the flywheel generator assembly to get to it.
... any trick to get the lock nut off without the Ducati tool to hold the whole thing in place?
strap wrench or gear holder i believe work.
the idea of a penny between the gears kind of makes me cringe...all over.
Penny in starter gears works GREAT. I was WAY skeptical also..but it just works, and with very little force on the gears you jam with the penny, it's geared down pretty far by then, so it's effective. I used an electric impact gun to break the nut loose, and then used a torque wrench with penny to get it back on with lots of cleaning and locktight for good measure.
Quote from: Dietrich on December 08, 2009, 04:55:51 PM
Penny in starter gears works GREAT. I was WAY skeptical also..but it just works, and with very little force on the gears you jam with the panny, it's geared down pretty far by then, so it's effective. I used an electric impact gun to break the nut loose, and then used a torque wrench with penny to get it back on with lots of cleaning and locktight for good measure.
Ah yes, I've heard about putting ones 2 cents in. Makes sense now.
bahahaha
Quote from: Speeddog on December 08, 2009, 01:54:44 PM
Yeah, that's the one.
The bike will usually shift normally for a while, but will it eventually jam.
Is this the same on a M900? I think I need to check mine. It's been "clicking" on upshifts for a while now, even with a pre-loaded shift lever. A week or so ago, I had some real trouble shifting into second gear. Blamed it on the funky shoes I was wearing as the next day it shifted fine, albeit with the "click," but it has me a little worried. 100 miles ago, I could pre-load the shifter and shift as smooth as an automatic transmission. Puzzles me as the bike, despite being a '99, only has 6K miles.
Same setup on an M900, and AFAIK any belt-drive cam duc motor.
The spring does get flexed a bit when you shift, so failure is a bit dependent on mileage.
But I've seen 'em broken on low mileage bikes.
Quick question: What would be the symptoms of a broken spring? Besides, of course, a piece of it falling out of your crankcase. ;D
Would the shifter "return" to it's normal at rest position without it? Mine seems to do that just fine.
The only symptom I had was that it got stuck in neutral.
I'm glad I got all the pieces out before they caused real damage. I bought the spring yesterday from Ducati --- it was $3.49..... I have a feeling if it fully broke lose and got caught in a bad spot that it could / would do more than $3 worth of damage.
There are 2 springs on the shift mechanism on the left side of the motor.
The one at the middle pivot.
If that one breaks, the bike *can* shift normally.
But it will eventually jam.
If it jams on an upshift, the trans may be between gears, sometimes harmless, sometimes not so good.
If it jams on a downshift, the pivot and what's left of the spring clash with the gear on the crank, not good.
There's a 'centering' spring on the pivot at the bottom.
It's what brings the shift lever back to center after a shift.
If that one breaks, the lever will stay up or down, but the bike will still shift.
All of this is assuming that the loose spring pieces don't find their way into any gears.
It's not likely that will happen, but it will not be good if it does.
I've seen both springs broken, middle pivot springs a lot more than lower pivot springs.
Quote from: dlearl476 on December 10, 2009, 10:53:39 AM
Quick question: What would be the symptoms of a broken spring? Besides, of course, a piece of it falling out of your crankcase. ;D
Would the shifter "return" to it's normal at rest position without it? Mine seems to do that just fine.
Quote from: ato memphis on December 08, 2009, 04:31:19 PM
Remember, when you put that cover back on, torque the bolts properly. You are dealing with aluminum, so Incredible-Hulking these on will just result in stripped threads.
On the 2005 620 the torque setting is only 10 Nm, no more!!!!! Yours should be the same. It might not seem like alot, but like atomemphis said, don't over torque it!!, They WILL snap off, or strip out, faster than you may think. This may also seem like an obvious thing, but don't just do it by hand, get a torque wrench, don't skimp, just do it right.
The Doc
[clap]
AMAZING!
My hats off to all of you for your good advice; generosity and courage of the guy who fixed it himself via duc M F advisors. Yyyyooooooouuuuuuuu Guuuuuuyyyyyyyys!
.... When I first took a look at the piece of metal and thought WTF is that? Oh right a piece of spring; well WTF would that come from? oh righ that shifetr spring I saw once when I was replacing a case cover ....lol
[bacon]
[bow_down]
[moto]
A buddy of mine had his bike getting stuck in third gear. Not sure if the spring was broken or just went soft but it was also a spring that caused the problem. New spring and no problems since.
Scott
Quote from: Speeddog on December 10, 2009, 02:14:04 PM
There are 2 springs on the shift mechanism on the left side of the motor.
Thanks Speeddog. I'm going to pull my cover for a look/see. The bikes gonna be down for a couple of weeks with the suspension back at Ohlins.