Ducati Monster Forum

I have had two different Ducs and have never felt like the front end was unstable. Never a high speed wobble. 1999 900 SS and 07 S2R 1K     [moto] [drink]

If you do a Search for steering dampers you will find alot of info.  [thumbsup]

Not sure if this helps but have an 06 S2R1K with a Matris has been on it since I owned the machine so I have limited time without one. Doesn't bother me without the damper at low speeds but when taking corners and hitting bumps or dips with speed the front end feels dangerous to me. Needless to say I put it back on and trust it to do its job. Keep it on 4 clicks around town and all the way up on the freeway.  

if they were "necessary" the bike would come with it.

or better tires, suspension, brakes, wheels, etc. etc.  ;)

Over the years I've become thoroughly convinced that 9 times out of 10 steering dampers are installed either to mask an engineering design flaw / lurking mechanical issue, or to cover for a rider who puts too much weight on the handle bars. With it usually being the latter.  I can imagine that hitting a bad pot hole or some other debris in the road might cause a tank slapper that a damper could keep from happening. But I've never seen it.

As a survivor of a terrible unrecoverable tank slapper....
I found mine at 59k miles on the I 10 freeway changing lanes at night.
A steering damper might have saved me from a broken ankle
with 2 plates and ~16 screws, some fractured fingers, bruised lung etc...

It's the first slap that needs to be damped. Maybe only happens once to you.
It pays for itself that one time. There are mild tankslappers and there are
terrifying tankslappers lock to lock ones. A properly set up  damper turns terrifying tankslappers
into a mild event or a least makes that a possibility. Otherwise the bike will slam into the road
at almost whatever speed you were travelling at. In my case it was about 65mph.
Thank god, my right leg was not on the peg at the time.
Ducati uses a 21º rake. The bike I was riding had a conservative 27º rake.
A 21º rake can be provoked into a tankslapper even more easily.
I will not ride again without one. I think they should be mandatory on motorcycles now.

Here's the approach in daylight....looks like nothing.

(http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t355/hb7777/DSC01115_3.jpg)

(http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t355/hb7777/accident-marked-up.jpg)

(http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t355/hb7777/DSC01119_3.jpg)

i have to disagree with the person that says 'if it needed it, it would come with it'

bikes also don't 'come' with helmets, but you need it, not for the riding but for possibility of a fall.
a damper would have saved me a broken collarbone and concussion.
brand new road, coming out of a long sweeper onramp onto a five lane highway. the workers didn't transition the new road to the old road and there was a 2-3 inch drop with the bike slightly in a lean. full tank slapper that tore open the head tube.
a damper 'might' had saved it.

Thanks for the pictures. Sorry to hear about your crash.  :-[

If the bike is well designed and set up properly there may be no need for a steering damper.  Of course, if you take a Monster which is a street bike and modify the suspension, geometry, etc. to make it more like a track bike it may become less stable than it was.  You should get the suspension, etc. all set properly to minimize the need for a steering damper and you should have proper riding technique to also limit the need.  Still, in some riding situations it may be better to have one than not.

All that said, I think most people get them for the bling factor, others because they've done some mods that made the bike unstable and haven't spent the time to set it up right.  IN that case the damper mask the real problem.  That's bad.  If your bike is getting twitchy you should examine any and all causes BEFORE you attach a steering damper.

Oh, and if you want one just for the bling factor, well, ain't nothing wrong with that :)

Scott

Better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it.

that would be a great argument if it wasn't a bonestock 99 Monster that I had my slapper on.

21º fork rake ? Don't walk, Run and get a steering damper is my premium advice.
Don't think your bike is somehow so perfect, it can't happen. It can and will happen when the right
conditions throw your cyclonic balance off. Big violent tankslappers only happen at high speeds
and they happen to "expert" riders too....

I have no idea where this 21^orake comes from, 851 based monsters have a 23^o rake, ST based and SR* Monsters are 24^o.  Trail is the more important number anyway. 

Bottom line is if your Monster needs a damper there is something wrong with your bike.  This does not mean it not a good idea to add a damper to your Monster, making it a safer, better ride.

A couple nerve-wracking front end wobbles on my (stock at the time) 695 persuaded me to get one.  I keep it set pretty low and it works great, I've been very happy with it.

Here's ScottRNelson's description of his tank slapper on a Monster going over a cattle guard:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=12555.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=12555.0)

Moto-science is right.  Weave mode oscillations are poorly damped or unstable at high speed.  Wobble is poorly damped or unstable at mid-range of speeds.  It is the nature of the two wheeled beast.  It is only a matter of time until you find the combination of vibration mode, speed, and ground excitation.  When you find it, it may be over before you know it, so a continuously acting damper makes sense. 

I even had a tank slapper on my Vespa.

My first purchases for my Monster were the 14 tooth front sprocket and the damper.  I'd do it again.

My advice to folks is that if you have a persistent wobble, you should look into getting it fixed, not look to mask it with a steering damper.

Beyond that, a steering damper is good insurance from a nasty confluence of just the right input on the wheels, suspension, frame and your arms to cause a tank slapper.

Personally, I've found most wobbles can be cured by tuning your suspension properly and making sure you're not putting to much pressure on the bars.

And lighter wheels help as well, but that's an expensive way to fix a wobble.

If you ride fast twisties on your Monster, a damper is a nice investment/insurance policy.   You see factory dampers on the high-end Ducs.  

Raux, I should clarify.

As a safety catch when you run into an unexpected road hazard like you and science did, sure.  If you want one install one.  I agree, it may save you in a situation like that where the bike or your skills might not. 

What I object to is people installing one as the first fix for a wobble.  If your bike wobbles/twitches/wiggles on smooth pavement when going straight or around a steady turn you should find out why it's doing that and sort the problem out.  A steering damper can mask it but won't fix it.

Scott

IMO it is mainly about suspension, especially on a bike with fairly conservative steering geometry such as the Monster.

I doubt it is a coincidence that both reports above of serious tankslappers arose after the bike's front wheel hit a very sharp and very hard step in the road surface.

Many years ago I had the use of a Yamaha FZR600 (not sure what they were called in the US), which was prone to violent tankslappers in straight-line high-speed travel over certain roads that were moderately bumpy. After fitting firmer fork springs from Ohlins, some damping oil that worked with the springs and an Ohlins shock, bike became perfectly stable at same or higher speeds on same roads.

Of course, fitting a steering damper would have been cheaper than sorting the suspension.

What I am not so sure about is how effectively a typical steering damper will resolve the problem. Can also recall riding a Suzuki TL1000 that had a std steering damper. No head-shakes but at one point it did get into a horrible rolling wallow after hitting a few bumps cresting a rise at 85mph or so. Felt like the bump-crest combo upset the suspension and the steering damper was doing its best to cope - only best was not very good and for about 50 metres I was a mere passenger, not the rider.

Another anecdote: Honda's original Fireblade (1992?) had radically sharp steering geometry for its day and no steering damper. People predicted fearsome headshake issues on bumpy roads. Bike went on sale and everybody reported awesome stability. But that first model, if not all which superseded it, had very good stock suspension.

I stand corrected....Howie. Ducatis have used  23.5 - 24.5º rakes,
It the Buell that uses a suicidal 21º rake. (RIP)

Now that we are in the CANBUS network era, the electronic steering damper
offered on the GSXRs is an excellent idea. Speed related active steering dampening.
We are still in the passive steering damping era, not sure how well the Hyperpro 'active'
damper works. Supposedly dampens harder the faster the piston moves.

The brutal truth is the more you ride, it is just a matter of time before
you go down. I went ~10 years without crashing and without a steering damper.
I ride 365 days a year and go without a car. My luck was certain to run out.
Crashing like that was a wake up call to improve my suspension set up and footwear.

A bad tankslapper is not a mere wobble, it is an instant lock to lock violent oscillation.
You break fingers from it before you even know it, there is no recovery from my experience.

(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/194438/images/Christian%20Pfeiffer%20no%20handed%20wheelie%20lo.jpg)

...and this means what?

+1 ???

Here's a good write up on this issue from Shazaam on the ducati.ms site

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=35548 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=35548)

I cannot imagine using either the throttle or the front brake when it happens.  A friend's slapper pushed the front brake's pistons/pads out so that it took several pumps of the lever to get any front brake back after the slapper had gone away.  He nearly sailed through an intersection before he got them pumped back up.  That slapper had snatched the grips right out of his hands.

I was a naysayer to dampers for a long time, but they do work and add a trivial amount of weight.  I use a side mt. Ohlins for the last 30k mi. now. Even my old 74 R90S came new with a very good hydraulic damper.

In "normal" riding you shouldn't need a damper. Light on the bars and controls is important.

Both the DS1000 and the S4R/RS lift the front end so easily in the first two gears and seriously unload the front if not pull the wheel when exiting corners under power in third. It's easy to add unwanted steering inputs with so little or no weight on the front end in that situation.

Bumps or serious dips at the apex of turns make dampers a very good idea IMHO.

LA

Related question:

Do light wheels like BST's increase the potential for a tank slapper due to the reduced inertia, or minimize the effects to a manageable level due to the reduced inertia?

My guess, and purely a guess would be they would minimize the problem. As was stated before, proper suspension set-up is key (most folks never do this), as I have found with my wheel/brake set-up which is lighter than just a set of BST wheels. On another note. I have not seen a race bike without a damper. ymmv

My worst experience with a front end wobble (borderline tank-slapper) happened about 37 years ago, when I was about 18 years old. I was going about 85 MPH on a Honda 305 down a smooth highway. The handlebars began shaking violently; all I could do was hang on and back off the throttle. I finally got the thing slowed down and pulled safely over to the shoulder. My underwear had to be disposed of.  :-\

Obviously, the bikes most of us ride today are far superior to the beasts I was born on, but the fact that I can recall this incident as clear as if it were yesterday makes me realize I don't want to experience anything like it in the future.   

 [coffee] Considering moving steering stabilizer to the top of my mod list. 

Okay, I'll jump in. I had a lock-to-lock slapper that self-corrected after about 3 seconds of terror. I was slightly leaned over (maybe 5 degrees) at about 50 MPH on smooth street pavement when my front wheel hit a glancing blow on a rock smaller than a golf ball (I didn't see it until the last moment). It started as side-to-side oscillations which increased into a full, lock-to-lock tank slapper. I could do little but hang on and it somehow subsided the same way it started with oscillations decreasing back to normal.

A damper would have been welcomed hardware!!!

You will never forget a full tank slapper...  :-\

Both wheels get ~1-3 lbs lighter...certainly helps, but the gryroscopic forces,  when disturbed at a mere 50mph are substantial. One rider broke his both forearms in a tankslapper when he tried to hold on....forget about accelerating out of that. Steering dampers should be mandatory. Don't BS yourself and think it will never happen to you. BTDT.
I thought I was immortal....until that tankslapper.

My very first ride on a motorised 2 wheeler---a friends mini bike-- started with me pinning the throttle, accelerating into a huge tankslapper and getting off landing on my chin. Can still feel the scar. never used a damper on the modern Ducs, the old 250 had a bakelite knob on the steering stem with a wave washer underneath. The Elefant 650 used to get a slow oscillation on curves when I was trying to get the last thousand miles home on an old tyre. If a dampener make you feel good do it as long as tyres and suspension are in good nick. Don

This is an excellent discussion.
It's easy for me to understand the need to sort suspension issues and to not expect a damper to cure
a poor handling bike.
Although I don't forsee spending much on my 620 I did get Andrew Trevitt's SB suspension Tuning and hope to at least optimize what is there, maybe a few improvements (you'll all know about that ahead of time believe me).

I appreciate the mention of a damper as a saftey device, to forstall disaster resulting from irregular surfaces.
sounds like some sensible bling - my favorite type.

Why chance it?

TT Bike Crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiKmPFo6xNA#normal)


Not saying this guy had no damper, I am sure he did.  Just some graphic video of an angry, ugly tank slapper!!

The story was his rear shock broke......or so I read somewhere.
That was a medium speed  tankslapper. It was building up and he still lost it.
Not saying I could have saved it. He probably had a damper which is why he had some time to try to save it.
I was in a tankslapper with faster tankslapping which came on instantaneously and very violent.
I fractured fingers before I knew it. There is no time to do anything in that sort of tankslapper.
Just slowing it down and your chances improve markedly.

Any one know how the rider did? 

Digressing here, anyone knows how does this damper mount?

(http://www.ducatikobe.com/parts/pic_parts/200504/parts_017.jpg)

Cheers

Top mount.  Some of that extra looking stuff is for the immobilizer/key-chip/antenna deal.  The black spacer at the bottom right of the package fits under the ignition switch (key) and allows the bracket (to the right of the damper in the package) to be attached as the frame mount.  The ignition switch cover comes with a longer wire allowing the immobilizer chip to function properly.  The triangular bracket (at the top of the package) mounts through two of the the handlebar clamp holes with longer bolts, and the little circular clamp is secured to it.  The damper piston end is attached to the frame mount and the damper barrel is held in place by the circular clamp on the handlebar mount. 

I searched and found that was Paul Orritt on Bray Hill in 1999.  He survived, broke a leg and did serious damage to his hand.  One post said he retired from racing after that.

Yet another scary crash.

Not a Ducati, (but it was an Italian bike)

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527124 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527124)

Almost makes me want to get a damper.

Mike

Thanks for the comprehensive note. Pushing my luck here, any idea how ideal is this for a clip-on arrangement? Thinking of getting a clip-on with about 2 inch rise to go with this. The potential down angle worries me on whether the damper can be used.

Cheers