We recently took my niece to dinner to celebrate her 18th birthday. She's a strict vegan and had a very limited dinner, even though we went to her choice of restaurant.
At dinner, I noticed some things about her that worry me. She's very underweight, pale, and has ridges on her tongue, which she says is caused by a vitamin deficiency. She's been vegan for about 3 years now.
I've asked her in the past why she feels the need to eat this way, and what benefits she gets from being vegan, and I've never been able to get a straight answer, so maybe someone here can help.
What are the physical, emotional, and psychological benefits of a vegan diet?
there are no benefits unless you're able to get enough protein by eating rice and beans, which are incomplete proteins by themselves but complete when eaten together. When I was a peace corps vol in africa, there were several granola types that thought they could get away with eating a vegetarian diet. They ended up with scurvy and other disorders.
It can be done... But it takes extra work to be healthy and vegan. I've met s couple who managed but most are like your niece and exhibit some diet based issues.
Generally as to why one does it it's emotional/psychological. Common reasons cited are the harsh conditions for food animals and not wanting to be part of taking a life. Though plants are alive... But that's the most common answer I've gotten when i've asked. Some cite health - avoiding processed foods, hormones in meat etc.
I'm of the opinion that in most cases it's a bit silly and not good for a human. But for the folks I've met who can pull it off and be healthy, they do impress me. It takes a lot of knowledge effort and commitment to pull it off
I have been vegan for many years now. I consider myself quite healthy, I believe those on the board who have met me can attest to that, I am very active and routinely do lots of strenuous exercise including 60-100 mile bicycle rides with 7000+ feet of climbing, lots of hiking, jogging in the hills with my dogs, weight-lifting, etc.
There is nothing inherently unhealthy about a well-balanced vegan diet, and in fact there have been studies showing them to be healthier in many ways than a typical American diet. Vegan diets are sometimes prescribed for heart patients and have been demonstrated to reverse heart disease.
It is not that difficult to eat a balanced vegan diet, despite what non-vegans say, except if:
- you eat out a lot at places without good vegan options (so end up just eating salads and/or french fries)
- you eat the same diet as before but just take out the animal products (for example just eating plain pasta with tomato sauce and plain breakfast cereal)
The most common reasons for becoming vegan are:
- Animal welfare concerns
- Environmental concerns
- Health concerns
I'm not interested in getting into a debate about veganism, so I'll just refer you to some excellent books.
The Food Revolution (http://www.amazon.com/Food-Revolution-Your-Diet-World/dp/1573247022/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262457778&sr=1-3) by John Robbins does a nice job explaining the concerns above. It is very well written, no hysterics or crazy claims, it was very well researched and is full of references for every statement that he makes.
Becoming Vegan (http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Vegan-Complete-Adopting-Plant-Based/dp/1570671036/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262458020&sr=1-1) by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina was written by nutritionists and does a great job explaining how to get a well-balanced vegan diet. It does not discuss any ethical aspects of veganism, it is just focused on health and nutrition.
Honestly, Bun-bun, I think your niece's problem is not her veganism per se. It sounds to me that she may have an eating disorder and probably needs to be treated for it. Unfortunately it is fairly common in young women, and sometimes people will use a vegan diet as an excuse for the disorder. Obviously I haven't met her so this is just a guess based on your brief description.
If you're interested, the
HappyCow website (http://www.happycow.net/north_america/usa/virginia/) has a list of veggie and veggie-friendly restaurants and health food stores in Virginia (and elsewhere around the world).
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions about a vegan diet. You guys know I am married to the biggest bacon lover on this board and I am very open-minded and non-judgmental and certainly no PETA freak. Like I said, I don't want to start a debate about this here.
Here is a picture of a healthy vegan (me, at the front):
(http://paularickert.net/albums/userpics/normal_bow28.jpg) (http://paularickert.net/albums/userpics/bow28.jpg)
Here is a partial list of
vegan/vegetarian athletes (http://www.veganathlete.com/vegan_vegetarian_athletes.php). Also note that Olympic gold medalist Carl Lewis was vegan at the height of his career (
excerpt written by him (http://www.earthsave.org/lifestyle/carllewis.htm)).
Quote from: cduarte on January 02, 2010, 06:48:45 AM
there are no benefits unless you're able to get enough protein by eating rice and beans, which are incomplete proteins by themselves but complete when eaten together. When I was a peace corps vol in africa, there were several granola types that thought they could get away with eating a vegetarian diet. They ended up with scurvy and other disorders.
Scurvy results from a lack of vitamin C, which vegetarians and vegans typically have a much higher intake of than most omnivores. Scurvy is common in those who just eat meat without fresh fruit and vegetables. Something is very odd about your example.
John McDougall is a vegan "nutrition expert." Here are a few of his newsletter articles (which should at least partially answer your question, if nothing else).
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/dairy.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/dairy.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/feb/whenfriendsask.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/feb/whenfriendsask.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/jul/kidney.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/jul/kidney.htm)
Judging by the diverse opinions I've seen, vegetarianism/veganism seems to be a touchy subject among scientists and doctorsâ€"no doubt because it's a lifestyle that goes against some deeply rooted cultural and personal norms.
Quote from: Holden on January 02, 2010, 09:11:09 AM
John McDougall is a vegan "nutrition expert." Here are a few of his newsletter articles (which should at least partially answer your question, if nothing else).
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/dairy.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/dairy.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/feb/whenfriendsask.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/feb/whenfriendsask.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm)
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/jul/kidney.htm (http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/jul/kidney.htm)
Judging by the diverse opinions I've seen, vegetarianism/veganism seems to be a touchy subject among scientists and doctorsâ€"no doubt because it's a lifestyle that goes against some deeply rooted cultural and personal norms.
Thank you for posting those links, Dr. McDougall is another great reference for nutritional and health information. [thumbsup]
I'm only attracted to one vegan ;)
i applaud all of those (nod to msincredible) who are capable of maintaining their health on a vegan diet.
it seems to me that most of the vegans that i have ever met (honestly not a huge number) are unable to balance their diets properly, which can result in a variety of health issues.
to me, it appears that they are just trading one version of unhealthy for another.
Quote from: herm (not herb) on January 02, 2010, 12:14:47 PM
to me, it appears that they are just trading one version of unhealthy for another.
Their food is cheaper.
Thanks a bunch for the references, I'll definitely read up, and maybe hand them off to her as a present. Might do her some good, and get her eating a balanced vegan diet instead of what she's doing now.
For the record, I have no problem with her choice, just her health. I know it takes courage to be different than the societal norm. I know I could never commit to give up meat.
Quote from: somegirl on January 02, 2010, 09:07:09 AM
Scurvy results from a lack of vitamin C, which vegetarians and vegans typically have a much higher intake of than most omnivores. Scurvy is common in those who just eat meat without fresh fruit and vegetables. Something is very odd about your example.
try finding citrus fruits in a remote african village... it ain't happening.
G'day,
Here in Oz i work as a chef, I find it really hard to cater for Vegans that have not given some warning prior to coming to the restaurant...
I really like to put alot effort into making good food weather its a Vegan/Vegetarian or just a normal person...
I find it really quiet challenging making a good quality meal for a vegan, i have now become friends with the few that come into the Restaurant and we now swap recipes... They tell there friends (also Vegans) its becoming a popular thing...
The only part i cant understand is where they are able to find the time to get all the vitamins and minerals from what they eat...
As "somegirl" said alot of people have the same diet just take out the animal products... that cant be good?
~Marty
Quote from: cduarte on January 02, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
try finding citrus fruits in a remote african village... it ain't happening.
Citrus is not the only source of Vitamin C. The fruit of the Baobab tree is high in Vitamin C. The Baobab tree is apparently also abundant throughtout Africa. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baobab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baobab)
baobab trees were not very common in Chad. Look, I lived over there for 27 months, and I'm very familiar with the food available in the villages. Fortunately for me, I lived in cities which had a far greater variety of food.
Seems like a properly educated person with access to the correct foods can be vegan and healthy.
It's probably difficult for a villager in Chad to be properly nourished....period.
Quote from: cduarte on January 02, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
try finding citrus fruits in a remote african village... it ain't happening.
What about bell peppers? Red and green are a great source of C...
Quote from: herm (not herb) on January 02, 2010, 12:14:47 PM
it seems to me that most of the vegans that i have ever met (honestly not a huge number) are unable to balance their diets properly, which can result in a variety of health issues.
I'd like to ask how many Non-vegans do you know that "balance their diets property...." ?
I know far too many people who have poor health partially because of their diets - vegan, non-vegan, and all shades in-between.
[bacon] and [drink] oooh and [popcorn] oh my
:)
could be a disorder or extreme lack of diversity in food. reasons are religion, evironment, health and emotional (it has a face!). im far from vegan, but its crazy watching those who jump into it for health without looking into how a healthy diet is put together. its not going to be healthy if you base it off how you eat now if you currently eat like crap or are afraid of expanding your dietary horizon. a lot of foods are incomplete proteins so combinations have to be made to achieve amino acid profiles so your body can do more with what it is given in the digestive process. some foods are better raw, some cooked, and others fermented. it sounds more complicated than it is, once a base of understanding about how to make good meals is learned one can take off no matter if your vegan or omnivore.
soy is over relied on by many as a meat substitute and is crap next to all the other things you can eat for protein like beans, nuts, legumes, quinoa, rice, seeds and the fruits and veg you eat them with. soy needs to be fermented and is a side or snack, not the main. and by not eating those things as as often as should be, you are not getting as much good fats and you could box yourself into a nutrition deficit. there is also the issue of food senstitivity. for me if i do have bread in must be sprouted and have to avoid most soy products, wheat flour products are an irritant and some types of soy drain my energy levels. food sensitivity can inflame the digestive track, lowering nutrient absorption making a bad nutrient situation worse.
just to add more sources of info for research:
if she is able to take a little info and take off
http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/vegan_diet.html (http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/vegan_diet.html)
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/ep-ryan-andrews (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/ep-ryan-andrews)
if she needs a plan and someone to answer q's as she goes, berardi is no vegan but he did walk the vegetarian path before having a plant based section of the product he puts out. there is at least one vegan on staff (ryan andrews, very active on the forum) and q's are answered in the forum that come with the plan. i use this and it expanded my diet greatly. ive eaten foods i never would have otherwise. (im not affiliated or employed by them, i paid like most everyone else)
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/jb-goes-vegetarian (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/jb-goes-vegetarian)
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/products/system (http://www.precisionnutrition.com/products/system)
I'm attracted to vegan's because they're usually skinnier ;D
Quote from: NAKID on January 02, 2010, 02:26:10 PM
What about bell peppers? Red and green are a great source of C...
In addition, potatoes, sweet potatoes, strawberries, cantaloupe, broccoli, vegetables in the cabbage family, leafy greens, tomatoes, papayas, and mangos are all good sources of vitamin C.
May be a troll post but i challenge the intent (and quite frankly have a low opinion) of any vegan who is that way because they dont want kill cuddly animals. If you do it for health reasons but have no problem killing animals for meat......you have my utmost respect. I didnt read the whole thread so i do not state this to jab at any particular member. Just stating my opinion.
forgot to add that any diet that is healthy is low or devoid in processed food stuffs. the whiter it is (but is not in nature) the worse it is and the less nutrition you are taking in per volume. it is more important for a vegan to be on a whole food approach.
explains very well the obesity issue.
Sugar: The Bitter Truth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM#normal)
I don't think that word means what they think it means:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/228720 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/228720)
Some very confused people in this world. ???
Quote from: OwnyTony on January 02, 2010, 03:40:56 PM
May be a troll post but i challenge the intent (and quite frankly have a low opinion) of any vegan who is that way because they dont want kill cuddly animals. If you do it for health reasons but have no problem killing animals for meat......you have my utmost respect. I didnt read the whole thread so i do not state this to jab at any particular member. Just stating my opinion.
WTF?
Who are you to think less of a person that doesn't want to eat another creature?
Seriously.
Quote from: OwnyTony on January 02, 2010, 03:40:56 PM
May be a troll post but i challenge the intent (and quite frankly have a low opinion) of any vegan who is that way because they dont want kill cuddly animals. If you do it for health reasons but have no problem killing animals for meat......you have my utmost respect. I didnt read the whole thread so i do not state this to jab at any particular member. Just stating my opinion.
This makes no sense. If you're eating a vegan diet you have no need to kill for meat.
Also, vegan (as I understand it) includes not consuming dairy or other animal products which don't involve the death of an animal. I think Tony is a little confused, or just wanted to start some shit.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 02, 2010, 03:49:40 PM
WTF?
Who are you to think less of a person that doesn't want to eat another creature?
Seriously.
On the other side of the token, who are vegans to think less of meat eaters for eating meat??
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 02, 2010, 04:16:51 PM
This makes no sense. If you're eating a vegan diet you have no need to kill for meat.
Also, vegan (as I understand it) includes not consuming dairy or other animal products which don't involve the death of an animal. I think Tony is a little confused, or just wanted to start some shit.
Yes, maybe im lumping vegetarian and vegan in the same boat. Sorry. My issue is having vegans give me shit for eating meat. That is their choice not to hurt animals. My choice is that I have to "hurt" them to eat them.
My issue is that SOME of the people i meet that are vegan for not wanting to kill other animals have an air of self importance about them that influence my opinion of others in the same boat. Yes, i realize its unfair to stereotype like that.
My point was that there are some people who are vegan/vegetarian not for the reason that they do not want to kill cuddly creature but for health reasons as in .....their main reason for choosing to be vegan is for health reasons. At the same time, they are not "condescending" at others for eating meat. At the same time, some of the people who are vegan may not eat meat themselves but dont mind others eating meat and are not bothered that animals have to die for others to enjoy meat.
we serve a ton of vegan food @ my restaurant, and it can be very healthy and flavorful. Many times vegans and vegetarians fall into a trap of eating shit food. Lots of bread, chesse, french fries, processed meat subs(morningstar etc). I have done it myself, and maybe your family member is just eating poorly
My wife is vegan, myself and my son are vegetarian and I think we eat healthy, tasty, balanced meals without meat.
I also serve a lot of meat at my restaurant as well, and I have always considered it a personal choice that each person must make.... good luck bun-bun, if you ever make it up to richmond give me a shout, maybe you guys can come eat...and we could have [drink]
Quote from: OwnyTony on January 02, 2010, 04:30:43 PM
On the other side of the token, who are vegans to think less of meat eaters for eating meat??
did anyone here make such a statement? If so, I didn't see it, but the, I actually read the thread. Maybe you should do the same.
Interesting discussion, and I'm enjoying learning about some new food options, though I have no interest in being vegan myself.
No, they did not so i made sure in my first post that i mentioned that i did not read the whole post and lead off with "this may be a troll post"
What people generally do is state their opinion (which is usually influenced by past experiences). The world is dynamic and people dont all have the same experiences. That is the reason why you talk further and challenge the person to see how they come to the conclusion.
I posted what i posted because i had issues with people imposing their beliefs on others(though i wouldnt say I am imposing mine but merely stating my position), particular my experiences with other vegans. My assessment of vegans are that vegans are that way because they start off with the belief that they do not want to hurt animals in any way (a perfectly reasonable stance that I dont mind if you apply that to yourself) and from MY experience, "they" (not all) cross that line and try to make you feel bad for eating animals. Yes, maybe no one previously on this thread did not do/mention this and i wouldnt know because i stated i didnt read the whole thing.
With regards to the OP, what she mentioned about any psychological benefits, what i posted was a lead up in my attempt to be witty and my punchline is that their psychological benefit is smug. They get to feel self important. Sorry, may be it was a bad attempt of an elaborate "joke" that failed on my part. I like to debate for the sake of debating and have a "strategy" of leading into questions or stating stuff in preparation of another point or answer i was preparing.....That answer (in regards to the OP) is that the psychological benefits of being vegan is a raised sense of self importance therfore increasing your self esteem. My attempt at being sarcastic....Sorry if you didnt get it
It seems to be working quite well for Clint Eastwood.
That fukker's like 200 years old.
Quote from: hoyden on January 02, 2010, 02:35:39 PM
I'd like to ask how many Non-vegans do you know that "balance their diets property...." ?
I know far too many people who have poor health partially because of their diets - vegan, non-vegan, and all shades in-between.
[bacon] and [drink] oooh and [popcorn] oh my
:)
very few. thats why i mentioned exchanging one unhealthy diet for another.
all of the vegans i know have horrible gas from the huge amounts of legums and beans they have to eat. you just can't get away from it, humans are designed as omnivores -- too much of anything isn't good.
i dated a chick years ago who was vegan, it lasted until she started spending nights. she wouldn't fart during the day but at night it would just UNLOAD in her sleep.
i asked around and this was just the norm.
Cows? Vegans. 2nd or 3rd biggest methane producers on the planet.
Quote from: trouble on January 02, 2010, 05:21:01 PM
It seems to be working quite well for Clint Eastwood.
That fukker's like 200 years old.
Kids... [laugh]
Quote from: ducatiz on January 02, 2010, 06:21:22 PMCows? Vegans cannibals.
FIFYâ€"
You do know what they do with the downers, don't you? [cheeky]
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/158359_feed28.html (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/158359_feed28.html)
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 02, 2010, 06:45:43 AM
What are the physical, emotional, and psychological benefits of a vegan diet?
Vegan Philosophy and Lifestyle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FytZI6EEXvQ#normal)
Vegans/vegetarians having bad gas? I second that! I lived with a guy who was vegan and he had the WORST gas ever. Of course, it could have just been his metabolism and not necessarily the veganism, but DAMN. You could be vegetarian/vegan for many reasons, as far as I know. Health, environmental, animal welfare, taste preference. I hope your niece doesn't fall into the category of being vegetarian because she thinks she is fat. (Not all veggies are skinny by the way.) Nothing wrong with a woman with some curves, in my opinion. I like curves. One reason why I ride a Ducati! [moto]
I flirted with vegetarianism for a few weeks, just as a way to try to learn how to cook and incorporate a greater variety of vegetables into my diet. Learned some new recipes and familiarized myself with some new spices. I find it more challenging to cook a good, hearty meal without animal products, but I like a challenge.
I want to get my two cents in before this becomes a "my dogma is better than your dogma" kind of discussion.
I am not challenging any particular person's beliefs here, but how deep do vegans and vegetarians dive into the ethical question? Having just re-watched Food Inc, and experienced the same disgust at seeing Monsanto* sue an apparently legal seed cleaning operation, I wonder if the vegetarians and vegans are taking note of this and adjusting their diet or consumption accordingly. This kind of legal exploitation is just as graphic as making a cow stand ankle deep in its own shit its entire life before being sent off to slaughter.
In short, I don't have any beef (ha!) with vegans - I am a big fan of people acting on principle. In most cases, the more Quixotic, the better. I do take exception to an arbitrary application of an ethic. If you pick and choose what you observe, or how you respond to crises of conscience, it begins to look more like superstition than principle.
For those that walk the walk, keep doing what you're doing.
* If you haven't watched the movie, Monsanto sells soy seeds to farmers - they own the intellectual property which is Roundup-resistant soy plants. About 95% of all soy farmers in the US use Monsanto seed - about 80% of the corn planted in the US is Monsanto GMO. Monsanto seed can't be re-used - if farmers do clean and re-use their seed, they risk being black-listed and sued. The case in question involved a seed cleaner who did not work for Monsanto-using farmers.
Here's some other good news: (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/14/business/main5978152.shtml)
"The price of seeds is already rising. Monsanto increased some corn seed prices last year by 25 percent, with an additional 7 percent hike planned for corn seeds in 2010. Monsanto brand soybean seeds climbed 28 percent last year and will be flat or up 6 percent in 2010, said company spokeswoman Kelli Powers. "
^^^ [thumbsup]
I understand Tonys point, as I have had vegetarians/vegans denigrate my eating of meat. My wife uses the line "If god didn't want us to eat meat, he wouldn't have made it taste so damned good!" This seems to quell the veg preaching, or at least slow it down. There are always going to be some people who think they can "help" you come to their way of thinking.I get people telling me to quit smoking, quit eating meat, quit drinking soda, etc. I even had a woman in the post office two weeks ago ask me if I knew God!
Most people who have made a certain life choice are quite happy to live and let live. Those that know me personally know that I don't drink alcohol. It makes me break out . . . in stupidity. However, I keep a stocked bar for my friends, and will gladly pour you a glass of single malt, or make a pitcher of mojitos on a hot summer evening.
My reason for the original post was to get some further info on veganism so that I could better understand my neices choice, and try to figure out if there was a way she could be vegan and still be healthy. Thanks to all who replied with videos and sources of information.
Veganism doesn't involve enough bacon to keep me happy, but I know a number of very healthy vegans.
As others have pointed out, there is almost certainly something wrong with this young woman. If she has symptoms of a vitamin deficiency, then her diet is very problematic. If she knows she has a nutritional deficiency and does nothing about it, that's just plain worrisome. Many vegans get all the nutrients they need in their regular diet, but many use vitamin and other supplements for the same reason that people on other diets use them.
There's also the issue of being taken out to her restaurant of choice yet still not appearing to eat or enjoy food. This may be an issue of the announced diet choice being used as a smokescreen for a problem such as food avoidance.
Humans = mammals = omnivores.
Just my worthless two cents.
bun bun.. if i can help in anyway...shoot me a p.m. and will get you my number and we can talk.
Quote from: Grappa on January 02, 2010, 07:49:40 PM
Vegans/vegetarians having bad gas? I second that! I lived with a guy who was vegan and he had the WORST gas ever. Of course, it could have just been his metabolism and not necessarily the veganism, but DAMN.
I'm pretty sure I would be seriously lethal if I became a vegan....
Quote from: cyrus buelton on January 03, 2010, 11:22:16 AM
Humans = mammals = omnivores.
Humans = mammals - absolutely and verifiably true. Verifying this can be sort of fun.
Humans = omnivores - probably mostly correct from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, but given the existence of human vegetarians and the historical reliance of polar peoples on completely carnivorous diets, verifiably untrue if applied to all humans.
mammals = omnivores - utter and complete nonsense. Many mammalian species are non-carnivorous, and mammalian omnivores are relatively uncommon.
Quote from: mstevens on January 03, 2010, 02:34:36 PM
Humans = mammals - absolutely and verifiably true. Verifying this can be sort of fun.
Humans = omnivores - probably mostly correct from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, but given the existence of human vegetarians and the historical reliance of polar peoples on completely carnivorous diets, verifiably untrue if applied to all humans.
mammals = omnivores - utter and complete nonsense. Many mammalian species are non-carnivorous, and mammalian omnivores are relatively uncommon.
a far truer equation...
cyrus = spoken bullshit. [thumbsup]
Quote from: mstevens on January 03, 2010, 02:34:36 PM
Humans = mammals - absolutely and verifiably true. Verifying this can be sort of fun.
Humans = omnivores - probably mostly correct from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, but given the existence of human vegetarians and the historical reliance of polar peoples on completely carnivorous diets, verifiably untrue if applied to all humans.
mammals = omnivores - utter and complete nonsense. Many mammalian species are non-carnivorous, and mammalian omnivores are relatively uncommon.
Humans, by and large, are pretty adaptable. We're the only species on the planet that thrives in all climates.
From an anthropological point of view, I am personally curious about the diets of indigenous peoples who only subsist on on locally available ingredients. Of those cultures, I am interested in the mix of dietary intake between plant and animal sources as compared to environment the culture evolved in and the availability of those dietary sources.
I'm curious if there is a naturally occurring vegetarian culture that has ample access to animal/livestock or vice versa?
Quote from: mstevens on January 03, 2010, 02:34:36 PM
mammals = omnivores - utter and complete nonsense. Many mammalian species are non-carnivorous, and mammalian omnivores are relatively uncommon.
My pet dolphin loves grapefruit.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 03, 2010, 02:40:17 PM
cyrus = spoken bullshit. [thumbsup]
That's why I gave my worthless two cents.
I am well aware that mammals do not need to be carnivores to survive.
Last I checked, I have never seen a cow eating a chicken or a pig.
Thanks, Brix.
I don't have a lot of pull when it comes to this girls life, so there's not much that I'm able to accomplish other than passing on some of the materials provided earlier in this thread.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on January 03, 2010, 04:58:00 PM
Last I checked, I have never seen a cow eating a chicken or a pig.
SO much opportunity for a cheap joke here.
Nah, I'll leave it to someone else.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on January 03, 2010, 04:58:00 PM
That's why I gave my worthless two cents.
I am well aware that mammals do not need to be carnivores to survive.
Last I checked, I have never seen a cow eating a chicken or a pig.
True...which is why vegetrianism and veganism are possible. There is no need.
It also proves that both of those species are smarter, or more prone to survival than humans.
A chicken a pig and a cow will eat just about anything...
if their well being is dependent on it.
We over think everything.
cows and pigs are routinely fed animal parts in industrial feed lots.
I'm vegetarian and nearly vegan. I have been for almost 20 years. I made that choice primarily for ethical reasons (animal welfare and ecological health). I'm a bit overweight right now thanks to working full-time and going to grad school full time (I sit and read a lot without time to do much else). Outside of that, I'm in great health. It's a byproduct of paying attention to what I eat, not a reason for my choices.
And Food, Inc is a great documentary. I really liked it. I buy a lot of organic and local food whenever possible. Monsanto is a great illustration of a corporation with far too much political clout. My wife is also vegetarian. She was shocked by Food, Inc. She knew a lot of the meat industry stuff, but was surprised by the politics of corn and soy.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on January 03, 2010, 11:22:16 AM
Humans = mammals = omnivores.
Actually humans = mammals = breast milk consumers
;)
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 03, 2010, 05:14:59 PM
I don't have a lot of pull when it comes to this girls life, so there's not much that I'm able to accomplish other than passing on some of the materials provided earlier in this thread.
Here's another one to pass on to her...I know some young people have short attention spans, so this might be more "digestable" for her.
Vegetarian Starter Kit (http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vsk/) - available as a pamphlet or PDF as well - has a good summary of nutritional and cooking information as well as some simple recipes.
Quote from: Bun-bun on January 03, 2010, 05:14:59 PM
SO much opportunity for a cheap joke here.
Nah, I'll leave it to someone else.
Not so much a joke as a silly memory.....
A decade or two ago, when Taco John's had just started offering chicken as an option as an alternative to beef, they included an opinion card with your chicken order featuring various rating scales and questions for you to answer.
One question was, "How do you like to eat chicken?"
To which I replied, "With one leg over each ear."
I wish I could have been there when the evaluator was reading the cards.
Earlier in this thread I saw rice listed as a source for protein. Is this true?
Quote from: Speedbag on January 04, 2010, 02:28:31 AM
Not so much a joke as a silly memory.....
A decade or two ago, when Taco John's had just started offering chicken as an option as an alternative to beef, they included an opinion card with your chicken order featuring various rating scales and questions for you to answer.
One question was, "How do you like to eat chicken?"
To which I replied, "With one leg over each ear."
I wish I could have been there when the evaluator was reading the cards.
[laugh] [laugh] [clap] [clap]
Quote from: Travman on January 04, 2010, 04:12:27 AM
Earlier in this thread I saw rice listed as a source for protein. Is this true?
that was an old theory which evidently has since been disproven.
check this out for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining)
Quote from: Travman on January 04, 2010, 04:12:27 AM
Earlier in this thread I saw rice listed as a source for protein. Is this true?
You're thinking "rice is a starch" or equate it with carbs.
There's no life without protein. Every cell is packed with it, whether it's a bacterium, a plant cell, or an animal cell. Even viruses, which aren't technically alive, are mostly protein. Muscle tissue is packed with it, and is "complete" protein in the sense that it contains all the amino acids required by us. Plant cells, even if they contain lots of carbohydrates, still contain quite a lot of protein. Thus, ones "daily bread" (or rice, or maize, or beans) can be used to support life. As noted above, most plants have "incomplete" protein in that they lack one or more essential amino acids (ones your body can't make from scratch or out of other aminio acids).
Combining foods to create "complete" proteins at the same meal is unnecessary. However, if you have absolutely no dietary source of, say, lysine you're screwed. As it turns out, practically nobody eats rice and nothing else so this isn't really an issue. Millions of people subsist on very little apart from rice and for those people rice is their only significant source of protein. It's not ideal, but it definitely supports life.
One way to look at it is that you can eat absolutely nothing but fish (or seal, or caribou, etc.), ever, and survive. You can't do that with rice. Populations have certainly done the former in "real life" but never the latter.
Quote from: somegirl on January 03, 2010, 08:41:05 PM
Actually humans = mammals = breast milk consumers
;)
So, does this means a strict vegan doesn't breast feed? I'm confused...
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b366/misterjj1/Carnivore.jpg)
thats all I have to contribute to the conversation ;D
Quote from: acalles on January 04, 2010, 12:51:18 PM
thats all I have to contribute to the conversation ;D
cross posting from another thread in here isn't much of a contribution, eh?
This one isn't about the pros and cons...it was about someone asking for some info to help a relative. If you feel the need to post an opinion on the topic at least it could have been an original one.
Quote from: Statler on January 04, 2010, 01:44:56 PM
cross posting from another thread in here isn't much of a contribution, eh?
This one isn't about the pros and cons...it was about someone asking for some info to help a relative. If you feel the need to post an opinion on the topic at least it could have been an original one.
cool story bro.
I didn't "cross post it from another thread in here" ran across it on fortitude and it reminded me of this thread.
seeing how the thread has run from serious and useful info to jokes about how people like to eat there chicken (which was make the beast with two backsing hilarious) I didn't see how it would hurt. calm down bro and have some [drink]
let me try one more time more politley. stop the threadjack, please....that goes for everyone. There's a thread for the veggie jokes and commentary.
Quote from: acalles on January 04, 2010, 02:00:29 PM
cool story bro.
I didn't "cross post it from another thread in here" ran across it on fortitude and it reminded me of this thread.
seeing how the thread has run from serious and useful info to jokes about how people like to eat there chicken (which was make the beast with two backsing hilarious) I didn't see how it would hurt. calm down bro and have some [drink]
It's really bad form to ask an admin to calm down.
Just sayin'
Quote from: ducpainter on January 04, 2010, 02:34:33 PM
It's really bad form to ask an admin to calm down.
Just sayin'
pipe it, grampa! ;D
Quote from: nicrosato on January 04, 2010, 11:36:57 AM
So, does this means a strict vegan doesn't breast feed? I'm confused...
Vegans do breast feed.
I was just trying to clarify the definition of mammal which means (among other things) that the female of the species has mammary glands and provides milk to the young. Mammals are by nature vegan, omnivorous, or carnivorous, depends on the species. The only thing in common between mammalian diets is breast milk (for the young).
ok, we're done. the humor can continue in the other thread.