Has anyone had any experience boring Ducati cylinders and NOT having the Nicosil coating . Does this mean IMMEDIATE WEAR. I have some 944 pistons I wanted to use with 900 cylinders, and wanted to know if this has been done without any problems. Anybody had a boring and coating recommendation?
The Nikasil coating is there instead of a steel liner. You cannot run the rings on aluminum. These people will do it for you http://www.mt-llc.com/ (http://www.mt-llc.com/) or you could contact Chris Kelley at
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com) and get a plug and play kit, which is what I would do. If you want to use your pistons, they will need them for fitting.
I'm having 2 sets of barrels bored and plated with Millenium right now. Will post pics when they return in a couple weeks.
And a big +1 to Howie's comment. You could have your barrels overbored and iron liners put in there so the rings ride on them, but the heat transfer to the aluminum fins wouldn't be optimal and you have dis-similar metals touching each other so they would immidiately begin to corrode each other...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on January 22, 2010, 06:39:09 AM
I'm having 2 sets of barrels bored and plated with Millenium right now. Will post pics when they return in a couple weeks.
And a big +1 to Howie's comment. You could have your barrels overbored and iron liners put in there so the rings ride on them, but the heat transfer to the aluminum fins wouldn't be optimal and you have dis-similar metals touching each other so they would immidiately begin to corrode each other...
Yeah...
They haven't done that since pre-historic times. ;D
Best bet is to get coated -- it works and it is fast and is a known / reliable technique. And it is cheap!
Second option is to do a cast iron sleeve. Inevitably you will hear horror stories about them. Mostly because they aren't machined correctly or mechanic installed wrong. At the race shop, we used cast iron lines in aluminum blocks for years for the Ferrari's, Alfa's and more -- never a problem when installed properly. When you are racing multi-million dollars cars, you can't afford to have things not work.
On one of my Ducati 2V projects here, it has 106mm pistons and required cast iron sleeves. The aluminum cylinder cannot be bored that thin and alone handle the heat -- thus why the sleeves are required. A few folks have done 104mm without problems. Again -- it comes down to who is installing and doing the machine work.
I used --> http://www.lasleeve.com/ (http://www.lasleeve.com/) -- they are now installing sleeves for customers as well starting a few weeks ago. There are various shops out there that have been doing cast iron sleeves for decades with good reputations.
Curious on the history of this. I remember feeling shocked a few years ago when I found out the new Ninja 650 had plated aluminum cylinders, I thought everything was sleeved.
Around when did they start plating aluminum cylinders instead of sleeving them?
How thick is the plating? Does it ever wear through?
How thick are cast iron sleeve walls?
Thanks,
Scott
Quote from: MotoCreations on January 22, 2010, 08:59:13 AM
Best bet is to get coated -- it works and it is fast and is a known / reliable technique. And it is cheap!
Second option is to do a cast iron sleeve. Inevitably you will hear horror stories about them. Mostly because they aren't machined correctly or mechanic installed wrong. At the race shop, we used cast iron lines in aluminum blocks for years for the Ferrari's, Alfa's and more -- never a problem when installed properly. When you are racing multi-million dollars cars, you can't afford to have things not work.
On one of my Ducati 2V projects here, it has 106mm pistons and required cast iron sleeves. The aluminum cylinder cannot be bored that thin and alone handle the heat -- thus why the sleeves are required. A few folks have done 104mm without problems. Again -- it comes down to who is installing and doing the machine work.
I used --> http://www.lasleeve.com/ (http://www.lasleeve.com/) -- they are now installing sleeves for customers as well starting a few weeks ago. There are various shops out there that have been doing cast iron sleeves for decades with good reputations.
How big a bore could you go in a 904 with cast iron sleeves? What year is the project bike?
I'm getting very bad ideas! Imagine that bore allowing reconfigured heads with really big valves![evil]
Quote from: scott_araujo on January 22, 2010, 01:45:38 PM
Curious on the history of this. I remember feeling shocked a few years ago when I found out the new Ninja 650 had plated aluminum cylinders, I thought everything was sleeved.
Around when did they start plating aluminum cylinders instead of sleeving them?
How thick is the plating? Does it ever wear through?
How thick are cast iron sleeve walls?
Thanks,
Scott
My recollection is from Yami race bikes of the early/mid 70s using plated bores.
The kwak street bikes as well as the yamis all used cast liners at that time.
It wears through occasionally.
The liner thickness varied....I recall under a 1/4"
As DP said, some time in the 70's.
Earliest ones I recall were hard chrome on 2-strokes.
Worked OK until it peeled off.
My '79 KX125 motocrosser had an 'electrofusion' bore coating, some variety of molten metal spray process.
Quote from: scott_araujo on January 22, 2010, 01:45:38 PM
Curious on the history of this. I remember feeling shocked a few years ago when I found out the new Ninja 650 had plated aluminum cylinders, I thought everything was sleeved.
Around when did they start plating aluminum cylinders instead of sleeving them?
How thick is the plating? Does it ever wear through?
How thick are cast iron sleeve walls?
Thanks,
Scott
Scott, I checked on this a few weeks ago when Ducatiz had his gapless ring thread. The Nikasil coating is very thin, maybe a few thousandths of an inch. It's some formulation of nickel and silicon carbide, is very hard and it takes a lot to wear through it on a street engine, although it can happen.
Bob
Moto Guzzi were the first Italian manufacturer to use Nikasil on the bores in the late 1970s on the big 850 and 1000 V twins.
It wasn't Nakasil and it wasn't the late 70's. It was the V7 Sport Guzzi's of early 70's and it was hard chrome on Al cylinders and soft rings.
The first I remember from Japanese makers was mid 70's. Kaw., I believe, had a process where they started with a bore that was almost the size required for piston fitment and then inserted strands of "pedigree" steel wire into the bore and ran BIG voltage through the wire which then exploded onto to cylinder walls. The cylinders were then honed to the correct dimensions for piston fitment - or words to that effect. That was a lot of brain cells ago. ???
LA
Quote from: LA on January 22, 2010, 06:59:11 PM
~~~SNIP~~~
The first I remember from Japanese makers was mid 70's. Kaw., I believe, had a process where they started with a bore that was almost the size required for piston fitment and then inserted strands of "pedigree" steel wire into the bore and ran BIG voltage through the wire which then exploded onto to cylinder walls. The cylinders were then honed to the correct dimensions for piston fitment - or words to that effect. That was a lot of brain cells ago. ???
LA
Yeah, that was the 'Electrofusion'.
Quote from: Speeddog on January 22, 2010, 08:23:01 PM
Yeah, that was the 'Electrofusion'.
Blast from the past. How many of you remember the aluminum block Chevy Vega?
Quote from: howie on January 23, 2010, 01:20:55 AM
Blast from the past. How many of you remember the aluminum block Chevy Vega?
Bleahh! You mean that water drinking mistake that often got an SBC in it to cure it's illness? [laugh]
Quote from: howie on January 23, 2010, 01:20:55 AM
Blast from the past. How many of you remember the aluminum block Chevy Vega?
<raises hand>
IIRC, they did OK as long as you didn't overheat 'em?
In 1962 Oldsmobile built an aluminum block v8. I was 215 cu/in 215 hp. Bad azz little engine in the 2400 lb Cutlass. It too was a great performer until you overheated it. Exactly what happened to mine.
Were these aluminum car engines prone to overheating because of insufficient cooling? Or just so much fun to flog it just sorta happened a lot ? :)
Scott
Quote from: 64duc on January 23, 2010, 06:32:04 AM
In 1962 Oldsmobile built an aluminum block v8. I was 215 cu/in 215 hp. Bad azz little engine in the 2400 lb Cutlass. It too was a great performer until you overheated it. Exactly what happened to mine.
That 215 cid V8 engine was sold to British Leyland, and used by them in Land Rover vehicles, perhaps even to date (haven't followed it.) I never knew what the cylinder technology was, though.
GM lopped off 2 cylinders, turned it into the odd-fire Buick V6 cast iron motor that went into the 1960s Buick Special, then sold it later to Jeep, and it went into CJs as the "Dauntless" V6. Buick bought it back... oops, precipitously off-topic, sorry.
Quote from: scott_araujo on January 23, 2010, 11:44:08 AM
Were these aluminum car engines prone to overheating because of insufficient cooling? Or just so much fun to flog it just sorta happened a lot ? :)
Scott
Scott, I recall a questionable source telling me that the overheating issues had something to do with heat flow from the combustion chamber through aluminum being faster than through cast iron. Not sure if that makes sense though if the cooling system was adequate to begin with.
Bob
Nikasil was developed by Mahle and used in Porsche's in the late 60's.
650 Pantah engines had it in 1985, I think all Pantahs starting in 1979 had it. Nikasil that is. Don
Quote from: Langanobob on January 24, 2010, 06:16:23 AM
Scott, I recall a questionable source telling me that the overheating issues had something to do with heat flow from the combustion chamber through aluminum being faster than through cast iron. Not sure if that makes sense though if the cooling system was adequate to begin with.
Bob
The biggest cause of overheating on those engines was the lack of phosphate free coolant in the US and knowledge that phosphate free coolant was needed for aluminum.
Quote from: howie on January 25, 2010, 02:56:16 AM
The biggest cause of overheating on those engines was the lack of phosphate free coolant in the US and knowledge that phosphate free coolant was needed for aluminum.
Was/is it a heat transfer issue or a corrosion issue on the aluminum?
The aluminum would slowly corrode in hotter areas, like the cylinder heads, combine with the phosphate to form aluminum phosphate and the aluminum phosphate would deposit itself in cooler regions like the cylinder block and radiator. Silica in conventional coolant played a role in cooling system this too, though I don't remember what the problem was.
Quote from: d6a9p6 on January 24, 2010, 02:40:07 PM
650 Pantah engines had it in 1985, I think all Pantahs starting in 1979 had it. Nikasil that is. Don
1980. yes.
Quote from: howie on January 23, 2010, 01:20:55 AM
Blast from the past. How many of you remember the aluminum block Chevy Vega?
my bud in hs had one, we loved it. we dropped the engine and put in a 327 small block.. i forgot how he got the money, but he picked up an Edelbrock dual carb intake setup and holley 600 carbs. it sounded like a friggin elephant.
i think it broke the differential... rofl
look at this one
Cosworth Vega on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-COSWORTH-RARE-SURVIVOR-1975-CHEVROLET-COSWORTH-VEGA-30K-ORG-MI_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35a69991beQQitemZ230428348862QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks)
So with nikasil....
Do you need to overbore a few thousands before plating to get the right tolerance?
Do you need to hone the nikasil after you plate? Or the cylinder before you plate it?
Any issue on seating rings, etc.? Are the rings made of special material to seat and play nicely with nikasil?
Scott
Quote from: scott_araujo on January 25, 2010, 09:09:58 AM
So with nikasil....
Do you need to overbore a few thousands before plating to get the right tolerance?
Do you need to hone the nikasil after you plate? Or the cylinder before you plate it?
Any issue on seating rings, etc.? Are the rings made of special material to seat and play nicely with nikasil?
Scott
you have it mostly right. they just remove the old coating and then check the surface (if any damage) the new coating will be over and they will use your pistons to hone it down.
you don't need to hone it, you will just get it angry.
these guys are the ones i used. they have a very good rep
http://kustom-kraft.com/NEWNIKASIL.html (http://kustom-kraft.com/NEWNIKASIL.html)
Cool, thanks :)
i was going to add though, unless you have a race bike or some crazy high mileage or damage, i doubt you need it recoated. nikasil lasts a LONG time
I don't need anything coated, just had no idea this whole process was so established and widespread :)