Got an 84 K5 Blazer that eats plugs ???
It runs great for about 6 months and then I have to swap out the plugs on it.
Does anyone have an idea why it would do that?
Quote from: VisceralReaction on February 19, 2010, 10:56:41 AM
Got an 84 K5 Blazer that eats plugs ???
It runs great for about 6 months and then I have to swap out the plugs on it.
Does anyone have an idea why it would do that?
define eating...
electrode erosion...
fouling...
what?
What's wrong with the plugs? Burned off tips, covered in black oil or what?
Does it also eat oil?
<edit>
bit slow on the draw today....
Quote from: VisceralReaction on February 19, 2010, 10:56:41 AM
Got an 84 K5 Blazer that eats plugs ???
It runs great for about 6 months and then I have to swap out the plugs on it.
Does anyone have an idea why it would do that?
Because it's a chevy? ;D
We need more symptoms.
No fouling, it's erosion of the side electrode.
Doesn't burn oil
Quote from: VisceralReaction on February 19, 2010, 11:14:40 AM
No fouling, it's erosion of the side electrode.
Doesn't burn oil
Always used to be indicative of a reaction with lead in the fuel.
Since there isn't any lead I'm thinking corrosion.
Does the rig sit a lot?
Cool NGK diagnostic chart
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp)
They list oxidation/corrosion, lead interaction, overheating.
Even better pictures and diagnostics
http://www.autohausaz.com/html/spark-plugs_spark-plug-wires.html (http://www.autohausaz.com/html/spark-plugs_spark-plug-wires.html)
very cool, thanks. On some there is a huge carbon buildup.
One other it looks melted, I know this is worthless without pics but I'm at work.
I'll get pics when I can and revisit this unless anyone might have ideas to look at
yeah it used to sit all summer for some reason and was only driven in the winter
Do you run a lot of fuel additives? Do you have problems with detonation (pinging)?
I'm going with poor quality ethanol fuel.
Quote from: angler on February 19, 2010, 11:23:41 AM
Cool NGK diagnostic chart
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp)
They list oxidation/corrosion, lead interaction, overheating.
Even better pictures and diagnostics
http://www.autohausaz.com/html/spark-plugs_spark-plug-wires.html (http://www.autohausaz.com/html/spark-plugs_spark-plug-wires.html)
According to the NGK chart its melting. Why would there be overheating
Quote from: VisceralReaction on February 19, 2010, 11:37:25 AM
According to the NGK chart its melting. Why would there be overheating
are they the right plug?
I once had an 84 K5 and from what I remember the carb was jetted way lean for emissions.
Add crap E-10 fuel to the mix and I could definitely see it running even leaner and melting plugs.
That i am not sure of. I'll have to check. ^
This is a new to me rig and trying to fix it's issues.
But hey it was free
Also if there is much carbon buildup in the intake and on the pistons it will pull some of the fuel out of suspension and make it yet leaner.
Wrong plug (too hot)
Running lean
Timing too far advanced
Preignition and/or detonation(ping)
Long periods of high load operation
Engine running too hot
And, yes, E10 will make things worse
Quote from: ducpainter on February 19, 2010, 11:30:13 AM
I'm going with poor quality ethanol fuel.
Your being generous calling it poor.
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 19, 2010, 06:05:38 PM
Your being generous calling it poor.
Hehe - well ethanol itself is a great fuel, as long as the engine is designed to run on it. The trouble comes when people introduce ethanol fuels into a world of gasoline cars that were never designed to run on them
Quote from: SA_S2R on February 20, 2010, 05:22:28 AM
Hehe - well ethanol itself is a great fuel, as long as the engine is designed to run on it. The trouble comes when people introduce ethanol fuels into a world of gasoline cars that were never designed to run on them
I can agree with that. Unfortunately its causing us fits at the dealership. Is ethanol mandated now or can we still find good ole fashioned go juice?
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 20, 2010, 06:12:12 AM
I can agree with that. Unfortunately its causing us fits at the dealership. Is ethanol mandated now or can we still find good ole fashioned go juice?
I don't know of any fuel for highway use that is ethanol free.
Even some 'race' fuels are oxygenated. I'm not certain they don't use ethanol to achieve that.
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 20, 2010, 06:12:12 AM
I can agree with that. Unfortunately its causing us fits at the dealership. Is ethanol mandated now or can we still find good ole fashioned go juice?
I believe San Antonio is still mostly ethanol free, however I am sure that it will not stay that way long. I'll ask the Retail folks at work and see what the outlook is.
I know the big fuel distribution center on the South side of town is not equipped to handle ethanol, so all gasoline being distributed from there is ethanol free, I will check on the others next week.
Quote from: SA_S2R on February 20, 2010, 05:22:28 AM
Hehe - well ethanol itself is a great fuel, as long as the engine is designed to run on it. The trouble comes when people introduce ethanol fuels into a world of gasoline cars that were never designed to run on them
It hasn't been that for me...a great fuel.
Ethanol seems to be fine as long as it doesn't get stored for more than a week or two.
After that it seems you have a slug of water at the bottom of the tank.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 20, 2010, 06:41:41 AM
It hasn't been that for me...a great fuel.
Ethanol seems to be fine as long as it doesn't get stored for more than a week or two.
After that it seems you have a slug of water at the bottom of the tank.
Here is the problem with ethanol/gasoline blends. Ethanol absorbs water, which can actually be a good thing if you have small amounts of moisture. However, it can only absorb so much, and once it becomes saturated ALL the water and ethanol fall out of the gasoline to the bottom of the tank. So now the gasoline has no ethanol in it and is low on oxygenates and octane. Also if you are unlucky enough the water/ethanol mixture is picked up by your fuel pump and now you are running an ethanol/water mixture in your engine, once that is burned off you have the remaining offspec gasoline being fed to your engine.
Quote from: SA_S2R on February 20, 2010, 06:57:11 AM
Here is the problem with ethanol/gasoline blends. Ethanol absorbs water, which can actually be a good thing if you have small amounts of moisture. However, it can only absorb so much, and once it becomes saturated ALL the water and ethanol fall out of the gasoline to the bottom of the tank. So now the gasoline has no ethanol in it and is low on oxygenates and octane. Also if you are unlucky enough the water/ethanol mixture is picked up by your fuel pump and now you are running an ethanol/water mixture in your engine, once that is burned off you have the remaining offspec gasoline being fed to your engine.
I've never had any luck getting the engines to run at all on the ethanol/water mix. This is most problematic on small engines that receive infrequent use...mowers, tillers, and generators.
My track bike will start, but often runs so poorly it's unrideable.
Call me silly, but I can't call that a great fuel.... [evil]
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 20, 2010, 06:12:12 AM
I can agree with that. Unfortunately its causing us fits at the dealership. Is ethanol mandated now or can we still find good ole fashioned go juice?
E10 is mandated in areas of "non attainment of air quality standards", an ever increasing chunk of the US. If you live in or near a populated area it is doubtful you can get "good ole fashioned go juice".
Quote from: howie on February 20, 2010, 07:13:02 AM
E10 is mandated in areas of "non attainment of air quality standards", an ever increasing chunk of the US. If you live in or near a populated area it is doubtful you can get "good ole fashioned go juice".
Air quality is pretty good here...
no real gas though.
I think it's easier/cheaper for the wholesalers in Boston to just carry the E10.
Quote from: howie on February 20, 2010, 07:13:02 AM
E10 is mandated in areas of "non attainment of air quality standards", an ever increasing chunk of the US. If you live in or near a populated area it is doubtful you can get "good ole fashioned go juice".
Correct - but some cities voluntarily adopt other clean fuels (such as E-10) in order to prevent non-attainment. Here in San Antonio we are right on the ragged edge of non-attainment, but have managed to avoid it so far.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 20, 2010, 07:09:03 AM
I've never had any luck getting the engines to run at all on the ethanol/water mix. This is most problematic on small engines that receive infrequent use...mowers, tillers, and generators.
My track bike will start, but often runs so poorly it's unrideable.
Call me silly, but I can't call that a great fuel.... [evil]
What? You can't get an engine to run on sludgy water? You can't call a fuel that doesn't work great?
Fact of the matter is E10, besides being problematic, in a modern closed loop vehicle, reduces fuel economy and power plus increases tailpipe emissions. Plus we pay more for that crap.
Quote from: howie on February 20, 2010, 07:20:38 AM
What? You can't get an engine to run on sludgy water? You can't call a fuel that doesn't work great?
Fact of the matter is E10, besides being problematic, in a modern closed loop vehicle, reduces fuel economy and power plus increases tailpipe emissions. Plus we pay more for that crap.
gotta love progress... [thumbsup] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang]
This whole scenario is making tetra-ethyl lead and MBTE seem like a good idea.
Quote from: howie on February 20, 2010, 07:20:38 AM
What? You can't get an engine to run on sludgy water? You can't call a fuel that doesn't work great?
Fact of the matter is E10, besides being problematic, in a modern closed loop vehicle, reduces fuel economy and power plus increases tailpipe emissions. Plus we pay more for that crap.
Come on now - the Government knows what is best for you [evil]
Quote from: SA_S2R on February 20, 2010, 07:36:47 AM
Come on now - the Government knows what is best for you [evil]
Greg, I've seen the 10% stickers on Exxon and shell pumps, haven't seen them on Valero yet. We see several cars a week now that become so fuel flooded that we have to change the spark plugs. Its usually on a cold start after sitting for a few days. The life span on spark plugs for most Porsche's is 60k miles. We are having cars with 10,000 miles come in on the hook needing new plugs. If I don't ride the Duc for a few days it is very hard to start. If I don't ride it for more than a week I need to break out the ether. This is with brand new plugs and fuel filter. If you say Valero isn't using 10% then that's what ill use.
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 20, 2010, 04:54:47 PM
Greg, I've seen the 10% stickers on Exxon and shell pumps, haven't seen them on Valero yet. We see several cars a week now that become so fuel flooded that we have to change the spark plugs. Its usually on a cold start after sitting for a few days. The life span on spark plugs for most Porsche's is 60k miles. We are having cars with 10,000 miles come in on the hook needing new plugs. If I don't ride the Duc for a few days it is very hard to start. If I don't ride it for more than a week I need to break out the ether. This is with brand new plugs and fuel filter. If you say Valero isn't using 10% then that's what ill use.
It's only a matter of time.
The automotive problems associated with E-10 pale in comparison to the trouble it's caused in boats. A number of larger, older boats have fiberglass fuel tanks. The ethanol dissolves the resins in the fiberglass, and those resins get carried into the carburetors and combustion chambers, resulting in a carb rebuild, or an engine rebuild. In some cases the fiberglass is weakened enough to cause fuel leaks from the tanks. Some of these tanks are up to 1000 gallons capacity(big fireball). In one case, the boats tank leaked gas into the bilge, and the bilge pump pumped the gas overboard. This is a big environmental no-no. The feds got involved, and the owner was heavily fined.
Quote from: Ducaholic on February 20, 2010, 04:54:47 PM
Greg, I've seen the 10% stickers on Exxon and shell pumps, haven't seen them on Valero yet. We see several cars a week now that become so fuel flooded that we have to change the spark plugs. Its usually on a cold start after sitting for a few days. The life span on spark plugs for most Porsche's is 60k miles. We are having cars with 10,000 miles come in on the hook needing new plugs. If I don't ride the Duc for a few days it is very hard to start. If I don't ride it for more than a week I need to break out the ether. This is with brand new plugs and fuel filter. If you say Valero isn't using 10% then that's what ill use.
Since this is a big deal for you, I'll put some time and effort into it next week sorting out who does and who does not use ethanol in their gas in S/A.
Quote from: SA_S2R on February 21, 2010, 03:32:15 AM
Since this is a big deal for you, I'll put some time and effort into it next week sorting out who does and who does not use ethanol in their gas in S/A.
Thanks buddy that would be great.
Got two more no starts this morning.
OK - here is what I have so far. Seems like pretty much everybody in town is already distributing E-10 except for Valero, so for the time being you are safe gassing up there. Now for the bad part, I talked to a buddy who calibrates the meters at the big fuel terminals and he said that they are in the process of converting those terminals to handle E-10, which means that Valero will soon have the capability of selling E-10. Will take a little more work to find out if Valero is planning on selling E-10 exclusively, or if they plan on selling both. Will let you know what I find out later this week, as I'm out of town tomorrow.
Damn. Thanks for the heads up Greg. That's really good to know.
to the OP, yeah, its running way too lean. your plugs aren't the only thing thats gonna melt.
that E10 crap is all I can find here too, and yep, since its introduction the rough start/ no start / flood cars have gone threw the roof.
and for some damn reason, it slows down the wide band O2S we use, but they don't throw a fault.. O-scope it and they read really slow response, which only makes the fowling of plugs and valves worse.
never saw that with regular gasoline, not to mention, the price went up 2 more cents for every octane grade, used to be 86 base, 89 +10 cents, 91+ 10 cents now its 12 cents extra, for worse gas! [bang]
Well after talking to the previous owner and hashing this out with you guys and your inputs
I think I may have figured it out.
There was a custom exhaust put on it, then the carb was reworked.
After that he put on a K&N cold air intake and didn't have the carb tuned again.
My thought is that with the cold air intake it leaned out the mix and is melting the plugs,
probably in combination with crud on the valves too. I was going to get it tuned and then
run some seafoam through the upper via the vacuum line and see where I go with it.
I was told it didn't melt plugs until he put the cold air intake on it, so that's my thought.
Quote from: VisceralReaction on February 25, 2010, 07:34:14 AM
I was told it didn't melt plugs until he put the cold air intake on it, so that's my thought.
Well that certainly makes sense
/Threadjack/
I was at a fishing industry dinner last night talking to boat manufacturers about this. They have formed an odd coalition to fight ethanol. Boat manufacturers hate it. http://www.boatus.com/PressRoom/release.asp?id=457 (http://www.boatus.com/PressRoom/release.asp?id=457) Their coalition includes motorcycle folks, boat makers, environmental groups, and, oddly, the meat packing industry. Enviros hate it because they think the increased use of ethanol will mean much more intensive agriculture which is bad for water quality and carbon sequestration. The meat and food industry is against it because it will raise the price of corn thereby raising the cost of all foodstuffs.
Currently, the fight is within the EPA. They regulate the amount that is allowed in fuel. The EPA has delayed making a decision on increasing the percentage. EPA is investigating whether this will cause more harm than good. Unfortunately, the pro ethanol lobby is trying to do an end run around the EPA process by sponsoring legislation to increase the percentage to 15% without the pesky need to find out what the impact of that change would be....
/Jack over/
obviously doesn't apply to most of you guys
but
This Board (http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109157) keeps a running list of non E10/E15/E85 fuels for the Boat/ATV/Motorcycle/Snowmachine/4x4 crowd in Oregon
Could be a worthwhile addition to the local boards
Quote from: Mother on February 26, 2010, 06:45:26 AM
obviously doesn't apply to most of you guys
but
This Board (http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109157) keeps a running list of non E10/E15/E85 fuels for the Boat/ATV/Motorcycle/Snowmachine/4x4 crowd in Oregon
Could be a worthwhile addition to the local boards
Can we do one for NY?