Ducati Monster Forum

So I've been thinking... (always dangerous)

I have two GTIs and an SUV.  Erica's little roadster will be joining the garage at the end of March, pushing one of the GTIs out.  I had also been thinking that I need to get rid of a vehicle, anyway, just because I don't have the time for all three of my cages plus the SS.

I'd been trying to figure out which GTI to part with for months now.  The '86 is not really in sale-able condition as it sits, at least not for much money.  The '98 VR6... well, crap, I just put a grand in wheels and tires on it last fall (17" Audi TT "Fat Fives").  The thought of taking a monetary bath on either of them literally makes me sick to my stomach, but something needs to happen.  No money to finish the '86 right now (paying off the Durango, just bought an engagement ring, paying for honeymoon, etc), so something has to be sold, or one of them is getting parked outside and will do nothing but degrade.

So I had a thought last weekend... get rid of both for whatever I can get for them (I have this huge hangup about the monetary hosing I'm going to take, so this will be tough to do).  In order to ease my suffering, and still have a more economical commuter car than the Durango for when the weather is good, I should get something fun.  Rear-wheel drive.  Decent balance.  Preferably small and light, but doesn't have to be.  Reasonably easy to work on would be nice, too (no twin-turbo Audi V6s, regardless of how much I like the S4).  Soooo..... I'm looking for suggestions.

Needs to stay under 10 grand.

Cars I've thought of:

1972-1974 Alfa Romeo spider (wanted one of these even before I had my license)

Triumph GT6+

Triumph TR6

old Porsche 911

Late 80's Porsche 944

late 90's BMW Z3

E30 BMW with some variation of sport package/equipment (E30 325is, E30 M3, etc)


As you can tell, performance is not my top priority... I'm looking for something fun, rear-wheel drive, and reasonably economical to operate.  Suggestions?  Oh, and I know I fit in a Z3, but not a Miata (I've tried both of 'em on).

If Erica's Sky was a manual transmission I might be looking for something more practical, like a sporting sedan.  But... I drove her little roadster and was underwhelmed... that car NEEDS a manual transmission DESPERATELY.  Now I feel the need for a sporting rear-wheel-drive car with a proper clutch and manual gearbox (as it was meant to be).  If a Sky Redline with a manual was available nearby (and remotely affordable on trade), I'd be seriously trying to convince her to trade up.

Oh yeah, this is still in the "thought experiment" stage, not the "go out and drop 10 grand next weekend" stage.

Fire away...

Fiero.

I learned recently that not only is the Fiero exact dimensions to scale but also the exact performance/weight ratio of the Ferrari . . . ummmm . . . the Magnum PI one . . .

And it'd be a lot less expensive and easily mechanicalized with.

Car and Driver just did a story on the top 911's of the past 20 years, saw it on the news stand in Feb.  911's are good cars, just don't get any turbo version.  If I was looking for a cheap RWD, I'd look and a mid 80's BMW 325is.  I raced one for a year and it's fast and easy to work on.  If'n your looking for more sporty, Datsun Z's.  The 240 is the best, but I don't know how cheap they would be (being a fellow GTI guy, I'd never suggest a 510).  Look at insurance, your age in a 911 may cost more than your car payment.

Porsches are nice, fairly reliable, and the only supercar that doesn't rot like a pear.  If you get any of the old English cars you're in for battles with rust and reliability, figure on driving the Durango now and then.  The Z3s are pretty good but more pricey than the rest.

Don't worry about the money you 'lose' on selling the VWs.  If you let them sit in the garage without driving them you're losing money anyway.  Cars are not investments.  You'll forget about it in a year anyway when you have a car you like and a garage that's not packed with things that don't run.

Scott

the old porsche turbos liked to kick in mid corner and throw you off the road... nice value added feature to indicated you were speeding... nothing like a hard RPM kick of turbo from a squirrelly rear wheel drive car.... lol

I autocrossed a friends 944 turbo.  The boost halfway 'round a corner is a nightmare.  Let's just say it was something I couldn't overcome in the 3 runs I got at it.  The 3rd run was the only one I didn't spin the car, left foot braking and not letting off the gas was the solution.  Left foot braking on the road, not advised.

Weren't some of the later 911's prone to sticking like glue in turns and then coming loose with little warning?  Just the way they were made.  I remember reading an article comparing a (then) modern 911 to the old Speedster.  The Speedster tended to slip more and more as you got faster, letting you know what was going on the whole time.  The 911 had more of a sharp letting go with little feedback before it did.

Guess a 912 is not in your selection but I thought they were cool, 911 with a 4 cyl bus engine.  Can't get easier to maintain.

The 914 is super roomy for tall folks.  I had two friends over 6'6" who were very comfy in theirs.  Packs a punch if you can get the 914/6 and has a targa top for sunny days.

Scott

[thumbsup]

Yeah, I couldn't afford a 911 Turbo anyway... but good to know about the boost-in-corner issue.  911's in general seem to like swapping ends when driven carelessly, but it's nice to know the older models will let you know before they spit you into the ditch (or off a cliff).

Oh, also great to know about the boost-in-corner handling nightmare on the 944 Turbos.  They were on my list (barely) until now... they can be troublesome and expensive to maintain, so I wanted a NA version anyway.

E30 325is is definitely on my radar.  I've seen a few sharp examples around, and every now and again there's a really nice one featured in Eurotuner.

Had forgotten about the old Z-cars... will need to do some browsing.  The older ones look really neat.  Like a 1970 240Z... "I wanna be a Ferrari when I grow up".

Oh yeah, I'll have the Durango as a backup car, so in sour weather or in the event of mechanical trouble, I can take the SUV to work.  Hence why it wouldn't bother me to buy a more maintenance-intensive old Euro.

Thanks Scott for the 914 suggestion!  I'll add that to my list.  The 914/6 is a neat little car.  The 912 is kinda my dad's thing.  ;-)  He's wanted a 1976 912E to use as a commuter for a long time (IIRC, that's the year they stuffed leftover prior-year 911 engines in them).  I'm gonna guess you're right about the feeling of loss/remorse going away once I get something fun (and functioning) in the garage.

Speaking of 914's... Holy wow: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/1616550151.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/ctd/1616550151.html)
(http://crinknon.info/vehicle-images/xxl-35677428666135442119.jpg)
(had to throw in a little stuffed-wheelwell pr0n... gawd I luvz me some proper wheel and tire fitment) ;)

...

Okay, after doing some looking and reading, the 914/6 is out of my league.
http://www.autotraderclassics.com/find/vehicle/vehicleDetail.xhtml?adId=71770&actionMethod=find%2Fvehicle%2FvehicleSearchResults.xhtml%3AuShipController.init&conversationId=97059 (http://www.autotraderclassics.com/find/vehicle/vehicleDetail.xhtml?adId=71770&actionMethod=find%2Fvehicle%2FvehicleSearchResults.xhtml%3AuShipController.init&conversationId=97059)

Anyway, some good food for thought thus far.  [thumbsup]

Out of your league?  I think it depends on whether you want a concourse ready show car or a daily driver.  If it needs some work it's probably way more affordable.  Also, even a 4 cyl is easy and cheap to hot rod.  It's purty close to a VW bus engine.  I think the tranny is a step up from the bug trannies which are always a weak link when you start adding power.

If you're looking for fun on a budget and are willing to let off on performance ain't nothin' finer than a convertible Karmann Ghia, IMO.  Again, dead cheap engine to hot rod.  But I'm an old air cooled VW guy if you couldn't tell already.  Lusted after these for most of my youth but never owned one.  Couple nice ones in town here in PDX.

"American industrial designer Walter Dorwin Teague selected the Type 14 for his list of the world's most beautifully designed products."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Karmann_Ghia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Karmann_Ghia)

Speaking of turbos, never understood the turbo motorcycle thing.  It's only good for straight line and even then the kick from the turbo lag can be 'disconcerting' to say the least.

And if neither reliablity nor performance are that important, Maserati built the convertible biturbo in late 80's or early 90's.  Awful car, I think it was actually based on a Chrysler.  Unreliable, didn't handle, but it is a convertible Maserati and if you could find one I don't imagine you'd spend more than a couple thousnd to get it.  Awful car.

Scott

One last thought, another unicorn I lusted after: Lotus 7.  You won't find a real one but there are many kits available and there's not much too them: frame, a few bocy panels, and a drivetrain.  This car was a monster when it came out.  Most of the kits will take 4, 6, or even v-8 engines.  It's quick with a 4, ridiculously fast with a 6.  Can't imagine what it's like with a v-8.  It weighs about as much as a heavy office chair.  Beautiful example of the English roadster at it's finest.  Tight foot box.  Even most of the replicas require removing a shoe to have enough room to work the pedals.  Dead sexy though.

"It was designed by Lotus founder Colin Chapman and has been considered the embodiment of the Lotus philosophy of performance through low weight and simplicity"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Seven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Seven)

Scott

the girl has a roadster...meets all your criteria for a fun summer commuter

you have a durango and an SS

ditch both GTI's and call it good

It's a slushbox.  If it was a 5-speed, your advice is exactly what I'd do.

If I can convince her to trade it for a manual, then it would fill my newfound need for a balanced-feeling, RWD, sunny Sunday car.  I'll probably ditch the '98 GTI and finish the '86 for use as a fuel-efficient (but still fun) commuter.

Scott: I have wanted a Lotus 7 replica since I was in college (that's when I first saw one).  Holy crap... small, light, purist... instant love.  [thumbsup]  A Caterham kit is nearly 30 grand, tho (not including cost to complete).  :'(  I'll do some shopping around and see if there's a cheaper option, like one of the Honda moto-engine-powered ones.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the Karmann Ghia.  Those are really cool looking, might be fun for a while.  I was looking for something that was a bit more handling-oriented, though.  Sounds like a running, driving 914 should be on my list to keep an eye out for.

Caterham makes a nice kit, didn't realize that were that pricey these days.  There was a company some years back that was making the frames on the original Lotus jigs that they had acquired.  There was some legal action and they had to stop, went to using their own jigs.  Shame.

The Ghia is basically a Bug, a little wider I think.  You can get sway bars, gas shocks, etc. but there are built in limits.  Heck, the stock Bug front end doesn't even have a caster adjustment, just camber and toe-in.

Scott

914/6 is one of my dream cars.  I didn't suggest it as I was keeping it for myself.  Good ones are hard to find and real ones even harder.  I always thought they were ugly until I saw a full race prep'd one with box flairs, this one had "24 hures of Le Man" history.

(http://www.sportscardigest.com/wp-content/uploads/porsche-914-turns-40-914-6-gt-2.jpg)

what kind of Roadster is it?

a simple gearbox swap would fit your bill

and be a lot cheaper

Erica's car is a Saturn Sky.
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii304/duc_fan/Saturn%20Sky/SaturnSky1.jpg)
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii304/duc_fan/Saturn%20Sky/SaturnSky3.jpg)
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii304/duc_fan/Saturn%20Sky/SaturnSky2.jpg)
(Those are snapshots she took shortly after purchase. One of these days I'll take it out for a proper photoshoot.  Now if I can just convince Erica to model with the car...) ;)

Doing a tranny swap in a modern electronics-laden car would be a nightmare.  It's all so bloody integrated. :P  Far easier --and probably cheaper-- to just trade the whole car.  Again, that's only if she's willing to.  It's her car.

So anyway... with all the looking around I've been doing, and considering that right now I don't need a project like a Lotus 7 replica, and with budget considerations in mind... I'm leaning toward the Z3, mid-90's M3, 944, or a 914/4 (if one can be found).  I probably wasn't clear at the beginning: I know I need to get rid of at least one GTI, but the key thing that started the whole "get rid of both" idea was how sweet and balanced the Sky felt.  It's just missing the manual gearbox.  Driving that car is what inspired me to start seriously considering swapping both GTIs for something low-slung and tight-handling.  The FWD GTIs are both nose heavy (the VR6 more so), and even the VR6 with the Konis doesn't enter a corner like the Sky does.  I love the motor in the VR6, but the handling just won't ever measure up.  The only way to build a VW that feels balanced the way I want would be to do a major chop job... we're talking quattro or RWD conversion in a Corrado (with an anal-retentive focus on weight distribution... so probably a RWD VR6 with a 944's rear transaxle).  That's WAY more fab work than I have the time or money for.

Ooh... long term project idea... stuff a VR6 into a Lotus 7 replica. [evil]  Incredibly fun engine in an incredibly fun chassis.  But anyway, that's just an idea, and a long-term one at that.  What I need right now is a driver.  So I either keep one GTI, or get rid of both and buy something more fun that runs and drives.

Gawd I want the sun to come back so I can go carve some corners...

M3 is nice.  My old roommate had one.  Even older models feel tight and fast.

Scott

Tranny swap in a saturn sky = no

VR6 into a lotus 7 = yes?

If I were you i'd just buy the 914

Light, good handling, heated seats, weather protection, optional sunroof,  and great mileage.  Sound good?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1)

Saw these in France when I was there.  Very cool little ride.  Also saw lots of Smart Cars before they came here.

Scott

Ooh, want:

BMW Z3 (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=266176888&dealer_id=64438823&car_year=1998&rdm=1267212614949&lastStartYear=1981&model=Z3&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=500&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&sownerid=100022500&showZipError=n&make=BMW&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=5000&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=97222&advanced=y&end_year=2002&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_price=12500&cardist=7&standard=false) (<-- clicky)
(http://images.autotrader.com/scaler/565/421/images/2009/8/6/266/176/12591431346.266176888.IM1.MAIN.565x421_A.562x421.jpg)

Also been looking at mid-90's M3s.  There are a few nice examples (not show cars, but not abused), though they're a bit far away (looking on AutoTrader with the distance set to "any").

If I can budget for more like $12k-$13k, I could get a nice low-mileage BMW M Roadster.  [evil]  The Z3-based M cars were some of the stiffest chassis BMW had ever made (at least up to that point).  Excellent power and handling in a wonderfully small package.

I know that 135

i'd buy it, it looks like fun

and the z3  [thumbsup]

I test drove a used M Coupe with a bunch of Dinan aftermarket stuff.  All I can cay is the salesman nearly wet his pants when I took the on ramp from SW Jefferson on to 26 at about 90 MPH.  Laura drove it first and warned him that I would "test" it.  They are funky looking, but I like 'em.

(http://www.bmwmregistry.com/exteriors/M%20coupe.jpg)

"funky" is one way to describe that car...  [puke]

Hahahaha...  I know, but I like 'em too.  Mike's and my affinity for that car may have something to do with the hot hatch thing, what with being GTI guys and all.   ;)

The M Coupe is probably THE stiffest BMW chassis/unibody ever made.

Older triumphs are something to stay away from as are Porsche 914.s Not Reliable and to sort out properly will cost you more than the vehicle is worth.
My fave would be a BMW 2002. Simple classic car that you can ring the shit out of if you want to.They can handle a good flogging and did pretty well in their day on the track as well as rally's.
Not convertible but a lot of bang for the buck.

Look.... he is trading his 914 for a Ducati...

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1631785688.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/1631785688.html)

 ;D

Don't know that he will find any takers though.

Been talking with my lady... I love her, because she understands balancing fiscal responsibility with fun.

After the wedding, I think the '98 GTI is going on the chopping block.  With the proceeds from that, put a new transmission (with limited-slip or torque-biasing diff) in the '86 GTI and fix the fuel injection.  Use the remainder to pay down debt.  While it's not as flashy or fast as say a Z3 or M3, it is still fun.  Plus it's more fuel efficient than the VR6.  Externally, it's not great cosmetically.  Internally, it's quite nice.  Mechanically, all is sound except the FI and transmission.

Once debts are gone and money has been saved, I can look at other vehicular options (or finish restoring the '86).

On a related front: a restored Mk2 GTI is worth more than a Mk3 VR6 right now.