the wife and i had an electric car conversation after seeing a nissan leaf commercial on tv the other day. The consensus was yeah, we would get one, depending on the price (april release).
check this out
Electric Car NISSAN LEAF on sale April 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAbBD06c9Wk&feature=player_embedded#normal)
how the hell do you embed youtube here....?
anyways, i think its cool. it would replace our saturn, would keep our forester and Ducati, of course.
what do you guys think. eventually these will be the norm, and im stoked.
ha ha ha "and most importantly, no tailpipe" the first thing i thought was, if ducati ever makes an electric motorcycle and i can't put a termi on it, i'm done, i retire....
it depends on where the electricity comes from.
am i buying something that will still pollute because of the extra demand put on powerplants or will i be able to use something much cleaner to recharge the car?
also, what's the range and the recharge time? if it takes 4 hrs to recharge after 200mi then i can't take it on trips so i have to have another vehicle anyways and i'm not going to buy 2 cars to feel better about my "carbon footprint"
i really like the idea of somethign that pollutes less and all that, but it has to be practical, and it has to be functional.
ohh and lets not forget the importance of performance. i can get around not having the roar of the engine, but the thing has to perform well. think of the tesla but with range and fast recharge times
I'd rock an electric car, but my wife would have to have a gas car for when we go on road trips.
I usually just drive to work and drive home after (well less than 200 miles), but would also have a gas car in case I needed to do more driving than 200.
Electric cars need to stop being so ugly (Tesla did it right) and stop being so expensive before I buy one.
I wouldn't buy a damn electric car unless I was forced to do so. Don't even get me started on electric motorcycles.
Quote from: KnightofNi on March 02, 2010, 11:27:44 AM
also, what's the range and the recharge time? if it takes 4 hrs to recharge after 200mi then i can't take it on trips so i have to have another vehicle anyways and i'm not going to buy 2 cars to feel better about my "carbon footprint"
Just saw another video on youtube... 100miles per charge. 16 hours on standard home voltage in US, but they think you could hook it up to 220 for a faster charge. Sounds like they have a long way to go before this is practical. You can't even drive it to work if you work a normal 8 hour day.
Yeah, 16 hours 110 v or 8 220v charging time. or quick charge is 28 minutes to 80% full. They are planning on charging stations all over, at malls, work places etc.
costs $3 to charge, you can pick when it charges, example is at night when rates are lower
you can travel 100 miles on a typical normal commute. more people inside reduces this, as does AC and other things.
you can even get smartphone alerts when its done charging, or turn AC/heat on from your smartphone or schedule it, before you leave.
Quote from: Vindingo on March 02, 2010, 11:39:39 AM
You can't even drive it to work if you work a normal 8 hour day.
why is this? do you work more than 50 miles away?
What's the decision factor? To save money or save carbon emissions? If the former go back to junior high algebra. The estimated MSRP for the Leaf is $25k. MSRP on a Versa is $10k. MSRP even on an Altima is $20k. Most will never save enough money at the gas pump to offset the purchase price premium of the electric car. When the electric reaches the break even point with the internal combustion then you'll be ready to trade in for a new car.
Go buy a good two year old used mid-sized car and wait 5 more years when electric car prices come down and gas prices increase more. Then buy a good two year old used electric car.
Quote from: Drjones on March 02, 2010, 11:53:17 AM
What's the decision factor?
For us, its an environmental thing, not money. The Leaf is something like 90% recyclable post use too
Quote from: Drjones on March 02, 2010, 11:53:17 AM
The estimated MSRP for the Leaf is $25k.
where did you read this? I thought they hadn't released the price yet.
Quote from: Drjones on March 02, 2010, 11:53:17 AM
Go buy a good two year old used mid-sized car and wait 5 more years when electric car prices come down and gas prices increase more. Then buy a good two year old used electric car.
Yeah, Jay Leno (screw him though, I'm with COCO) said it best, he's more green driving huge V8's since they are over 30 40 50 years old, most people replace cars waaaay too fast
Based on what is available today, if I was wealthy I would replace a petro product burner in my fleet with one. Since I am not wealthy and do not have a fleet, the answer is no.
Never say never, but with current technology probably not. In a few years when there are more charging stations and the range has improved...and/or at least the price has come down...maybe.
Tesla is supposed to be coming out with a very slick looking sedan in the $50K range. Still too much for me, but better.
(http://www.teslamotors.com/models/images/overview.jpg)
Quote from: KnightofNi on March 02, 2010, 11:27:44 AM
am i buying something that will still pollute because of the extra demand put on powerplants or will i be able to use something much cleaner to recharge the car?
Depends on where you live. All of our power in Seattle comes from Hydroelectric, so no additional pollution (provided we don't run out of water).
Also, charging cars will put additional loads on powerplants...and ones that pollute will indeed pollute more. However, it is still more environmentally friendly to get your energy for transit from them as opposed to cars. Large point sources of pollution are far easier to regulate and keep "clean" than millions of individual point sources (i.e. car tailpipes), which are subject to varying pollution regulations per city/county, and individual owner maintenance (or non-maintenance) practices. Yearly smog checks help...but they aren't always required, there are a ton of loop holes, and they're only yearly.
If I could afford a car to just drive around town that was small, electric, comfy and looked good, I would certainly go for it.
I was just thinking about this the other day. Putting aside all the Eco humdrum and just evaluating an electric drivetrain on it's merits and it makes a pretty good city car. Quiet, instant torque, and minimal energy consumption at a complete stop make it ideal for crowded urban areas.
Only if I can have this one:
(http://cache-09.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2010/03/500x_2010_03_02_geneva_hispano_suiza_08.jpg)
A couple of questions I never hear in "electric car" discussions are, what's the battery life, and what's the battery replacement cost?
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 02, 2010, 11:43:55 AM
why is this? do you work more than 50 miles away?
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 02, 2010, 11:42:46 AM
Yeah, 16 hours 110 v or 8 220v charging time. or quick charge is 28 minutes to 80% full. They are planning on charging stations all over, at malls, work places etc.
you can travel 100 miles on a typical normal commute. more people inside reduces this, as does AC and other things.
.
What is a typical normal commute? No stop and go traffic, no hills, no detours? This 100 miles realistically turns to 75mi, maybe less... Who doesn't listen to the radio, or have the AC on? Cut the miles some more...
I'm at about 65 mi a day round trip. Most days of the week I put in 12hrs outside of the house. That gives me 12 hours to charge my car. I don't have 220 anywhere near the front of the house, and based on the electricians thread, it will cost me about $25,000 to get service to the front of the house.
So on the 110V I have, I'm out of luck...
The "planned" stations won't help much when you are stranded come April, and the car is launched before the infrastructure is in place. As for sitting at an electric pump for 30 min... no thanks.
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 12:37:18 PM
A couple of questions I never hear in "electric car" discussions are, what's the battery life, and what's the battery replacement cost?
Those questions are big ones! The battery on my Hilti impact gun is like $100 for a tiny little 14.4v. I'm guessing to replace these bad boys you are looking into the thousands.
I know that excessive heat and improper recharging cycles (like recharging them before they are low) drastically reduce battery life. Ever been in a car that doesn't get really hot sitting in the summer sun?
Sure would. Gas is cheap today, but I think it is safe to assume increases as the Chinese buy more cars, and the world recovers from economic catastrophe.
But even if the break-even point is not in the next five years, I would still rather spend more on car and less on oil. I personally hate waste, and being slightly more ecological*, and decreasing oil imports would make it worth it to me. I am told it also makes your farts smell terrific.
As for the *best* time to buy an electric, I don't think even the newest gen of hybrid or plug-ins are getting beyond the early-adopter generation in terms of utility. At least for everybody. It is clear that we are not going to adapt our driving habits to electric cars, so it will take a little while to make electric cars more like ICE cars.
*I know most of our oil comes from North America, and that much of our grid is powered by coal. I also know that there is a net decrease in the carbon produced in building and operating an electric or hybrid compared to an ICE car. Electric cars are not a magical solution to our political, energy or environmental problems but they are a step in the right direction.
Quote from: KnightofNi on March 02, 2010, 11:27:44 AM
it depends on where the electricity comes from.
am i buying something that will still pollute because of the extra demand put on powerplants or will i be able to use something much cleaner to recharge the car?
That argument always bothered me, it seems like a huge cop out. Yea the majority of the energy will come from a coal plant. Even so the car itself isn't polluting as an internal combustion engine would. In any event and most importantly it's a step in the right direction.
I won't buy one, bike only [thumbsup]
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on March 02, 2010, 01:01:39 PM
That argument always bothered me, it seems like a huge cop out. Yea the majority of the energy will come from a coal plant. Even so the car itself isn't polluting as an internal combustion engine would. In any event and most importantly it's a step in the right direction.
I won't buy one, bike only [thumbsup]
Now that's the cop out. One could just as easily and accurately say that the internal combustion engine isn't polluting as an electric car does by proxy via a coal fired power plant.
Then there's the land fill issue to deal with. As all those thousands and thousands of high tech batteries exceed their life span, they gotta go somewhere.
And what about the raw materials needed for those batteries? Just exactly how plentiful are they? Lithium? What else is used for these? How is supply and demand going to skyrocket the price of the batteries because of the limited availability of the raw materials?
And what about the inertia of all those batteries in a collision? Will the deliberately lightweight chassis of the electric car hold up and give any amount of protection?
Quote from: Vindingo on March 02, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
.
it will cost me about $25,000 to get service to the front of the house.
[laugh] right...
electric car?
make the beast with two backsing joke.
you think gas is going to be hard to get..
wait till every one wants lithium batteries, not to mention the number of batteries each one of these things is gonna take.
Diesel technologies will be the future. you can burn pretty much any hydrocarbon in them, you can obtain the hydrocarbons threw a number of ways, coil oil, regular oil, bio, or algae.
these will all work into our existing infrastructure. I think we'll see a lot of algae fuel development in the future.
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on March 02, 2010, 01:01:39 PM
it's a step in the right direction.[thumbsup]
That's my main point, I'm not pro electric cars as i think it's the wrong avenue to go down. Getting the company's to focus more seriously on viable alternative methods of propulsion instead of pumping out more F-150's. We find something better than oil and go with that. The stone age didn't end because they ran out of rocks.
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 02, 2010, 11:57:46 AM
For us, its an environmental thing, not money. The Leaf is something like 90% recyclable post use toowhere did you read this? I thought they hadn't released the price yet.
Yeah, Jay Leno (screw him though, I'm with COCO) said it best, he's more green driving huge V8's since they are over 30 40 50 years old, most people replace cars waaaay too fast
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/tag/2010-nissan-leaf (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/tag/2010-nissan-leaf)
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
Now that's the cop out. One could just as easily and accurately say that the internal combustion engine isn't polluting as an electric car does by proxy via a coal fired power plant.
You can easliy say it, but I'm not sure about accurately. See my point source post above. Also...not every market gets their electricity from coal. Overall I find it very hard to believe that electric cars wouldn't be an improvement.
Less reliance on foreign oil is alo an issue. Coal fired power plants may not be all that great...but we have LOTS of coal in the US.
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
Then there's the land fill issue to deal with. As all those thousands and thousands of high tech batteries exceed their life span, they gotta go somewhere.
Plenty of space. The landfill space issue, in the US anyway, is blown out of proportion. We have so much room that we take other countries garbage for a fee. There may be an issue with toxicity from burying old batteries though...at least if they contain any sort of acid which may leak. That could lead to huge problems.
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
And what about the raw materials needed for those batteries? Just exactly how plentiful are they? Lithium? What else is used for these? How is supply and demand going to skyrocket the price of the batteries because of the limited availability of the raw materials?
Good point...will be interesting to see if electric cars become more popular. I'm not sure of the raw material reserves in existence for the battery materials though. There
may be more than enough that this won't be an issue...
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
And what about the inertia of all those batteries in a collision? Will the deliberately lightweight chassis of the electric car hold up and give any amount of protection?
Sure it will. Lightweight sports car chassis seem to hold massive IC engines just fine.
Quote from: Triple J on March 02, 2010, 01:48:14 PM
You can easliy say it, but I'm not sure about accurately. See my point source post above. Also...not every market gets their electricity from coal. Overall I find it very hard to believe that electric cars wouldn't be an improvement.
Less reliance on foreign oil is alo an issue. Coal fired power plants may not be all that great...but we have LOTS of coal in the US.
Plenty of space. The landfill space issue, in the US anyway, is blown out of proportion. We have so much room that we take other countries garbage for a fee. There may be an issue with toxicity from burying old batteries though...at least if they contain any sort of acid which may leak. That could lead to huge problems.
Good point...will be interesting to see if electric cars become more popular. I'm not sure of the raw material reserves in existence for the battery materials though. There may be more than enough that this won't be an issue...
Sure it will. Lightweight sports car chassis seem to hold massive IC engines just fine.
TripleJ, I must confess to being a bit of a devil's advocate here. I really don't care about the environmental "issues" to much (they're 90% BS), but those harping about carbon footprints and such do.
I do think there will be supply and demand problems with the batteries though. Or, at least there would be if there were ever a real shift in demand for these cars over IC engines.
With the current crop of batteries, there's going to be issues with range, capacity, etc. However, there's a whole new crop of batteries being worked on that will be lighter and hold more. It's inevitable. Just like no one in 1970 thought you'd ever see 25MPG and 400HP at the same time.
Gasoline is really difficult to replace. It's such an ideal fuel for vehicles since it's liquid and easy to transport and distribute. It's got a huge amount of energy for it's given mass and volume, and it's reasonably volatile so that energy is easily extracted. However, we use petroleum for a LOT of stuff for which there is no alternative so it behooves society to look for something better.
In all reality, I would expect that to be some form of liquid artificial hydrocarbon running in an evolution of the internal combustion engine with advanced battery technology enabling electric operation when that's optimal. Either that, or we'll blow everything up and ride mutant cockroaches. Whichever.
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 01:54:42 PM
I really don't care about the environmental "issues" to much (they're 90% BS), but those harping about carbon footprints and such do.
Ya, my bigger concern is just running out of oil...or supply getting low enough that it becomes extremely expensive, and we start fighting over it more than we do already. Almost everything is touched by oil in some fashion. Any environmental concerns are secondary to this IMO.
others have touched on this, but my issue with electric cars is where the electricity comes from.
unless you are one of the few lucky enough to have hydroelectric generation, the emissions are just being transfered to another part of town.
I would be far more interested in electric cars if they were viable with some type of renewable energy source....but thats not the case.
maybe some day..
yah, I think the electric cars are definitely a step toward the right direction. It's not about the saving in gas making up the higher purchase price. it's about burning less of the finite oil reserve we have on earth. It may be more expensive right now to go to an electric car. But unless we start on that, 10-20 years down the road, gas will be so expensive that you have no choice but to ride the bicycle. It would be too late then.
Sure, I think a lot of the environment talk is over-reacting. But it's a known fact that oil supply is running low and we are not burning any less gas, last time I checked.
Electric propulsion is like night and day in efficiency versus gasoline IC engines, so that is not an issue. And, electric generation, even by coal, is significantly cleaner than automobile engines.
The problem I see is with electrical energy storage. Batteries use a lot of raw material that has to mined. They are also toxic, and don't last.
If you can fix #2, I would buy an all electric car - a 250HP electric car would be a blast to drive.
The greenest thing to do though is limit driving - either by living close to work, or by working remotely. I am always surprised the number of coworkers that drive more than 30 miles each way everyday and think nothing of it.
mitt
Not against the idea (hell, torque is a beautiful thing [evil]) but with the mileage I do, the range would have to be double or triple what it currently stands at and I absolutely would run into the cost of a battery replacement once if not twice during the course of my ownership. So for the foreseeable future, ain't gonna be one in the driveway.
Quote from: Monster Dave on March 02, 2010, 12:36:16 PM
Only if I can have this one:
(http://cache-09.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2010/03/500x_2010_03_02_geneva_hispano_suiza_08.jpg)
But that only has electric superchargers on a gas motor.
Quote from: Triple J on March 02, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
Ya, my bigger concern is just running out of oil...or supply getting low enough that it becomes extremely expensive, and we start fighting over it more than we do already. Almost everything is touched by oil in some fashion. Any environmental concerns are secondary to this IMO.
The world isn't going to run out of oil any time soon. The "easy" reserves are getting strained sure, but there are plenty of oil reserves around to sustain demand for another 100 years. The issue is the oil produced from them is more expensive to refine and more expensive to extract.
I'm a design engineer in the Drilling and Evaluation segment of the "oil patch." For years normal operating parameters have been 20,000 psi external pressure and 350F, but with the deeper reservoirs we're now hitting operational parameters of 30,000 psi external pressure and 500F. Packaging electronics to send down a hole in the ground that have to withstand those conditions, provide good quality data about the reservoir and make it back to see another day isn't cheap; nor easy [bang] Pressure not so much of a problem that some nice nickel alloys can't handle, but throw your computer's mother board in your oven set on broil for 5 hours and see what it looks like afterwards.
Better to go after plentiful natural gas reserves that can be piped directly to the power plant.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on March 02, 2010, 03:30:39 PM
But that only has electric superchargers on a gas motor.
Hence the perfect electric car. [thumbsup]
Quote from: Triple J on March 02, 2010, 12:27:48 PM
Depends on where you live. All of our power in Seattle comes from Hydroelectric, so no additional pollution (provided we don't run out of water).
Just a note - killing salmon and sturgeon is pollution (and all sorts of other critters that depend on free flowing rivers). Not an attack on you, but there are trade-offs for ALL energy production.
Quote from: Drjones on March 02, 2010, 03:32:09 PM
The world isn't going to run out of oil any time soon.
The world isn't going to run out of oil EVER. It will get more and more costly, either from an extraction standpoint or a pollution standpoint and we will switch to something cheaper. There won't be any grand grinding to a halt of life as we know it when the transition occurs either. Markets don't behave that way.
I would love to see an electric car (one with realistic range and not two tons of toxic, short lived batteries). The performance and reliability that is possible out of electric motors is phenomenal. Didn't anyone here have an electric RC car when they were a kid?
Has anyone mentioned that the OTHER alternative propulsion system (the fuel cell) produces the number one greenhouse gas there is? Water vapor.
The coal power plant thing is a bit of a red herring in the argument against electric. Comparing CO2 output, and stacking the deck against the electric car and assuming 100% of the power comes from a coal plant, this is how an electric and the average gas-powered car stack up
(About 50% of our grid is powered by coal. About 25% is natural gas, and the rest is everything else. The non-coal half produces at least 40% less CO2 than coal)
Electric:
The Chevy volt uses one KWh for every four miles it travels or about 3000Kwh a year (assuming 12k miles/year)
Coal plants produce about 2.117 pounds CO2 per kWh (http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html)
= 6616 lbs CO2/year (I used 12.5k/yr for an even comparison)
Gas engine:
"The calculations for Total Annual Pollution Emitted and Fuel Consumed are based on an average annual passenger car mileage of 12,500 miles ... Fuel consumption is based on fleetwide average in-use fuel economy of 21.5 miles per gallon (mpg) for passenger cars"
Link here (http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/consumer/f00013.htm)
= 11,450 lbs CO2/year
I don't know much about the lithium supply, but this guy seems to think we are in good shape:
http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2918-lithium-supply-fears-are-total-bs (http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2918-lithium-supply-fears-are-total-bs)
Quote from: il d00d on March 02, 2010, 07:24:01 PM
The coal power plant thing is a bit of a red herring in the argument against electric. Comparing CO2 output, and stacking the deck against the electric car and assuming 100% of the power comes from a coal plant, this is how an electric and the average gas-powered car stack up
(About 50% of our grid is powered by coal. About 25% is natural gas, and the rest is everything else. The non-coal half produces at least 40% less CO2 than coal)
Electric:
The Chevy volt uses one KWh for every four miles it travels or about 3000Kwh a year (assuming 12k miles/year)
Coal plants produce about 2.117 pounds CO2 per kWh (http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html)
= 6616 lbs CO2/year (I used 12.5k/yr for an even comparison)
Gas engine:
"The calculations for Total Annual Pollution Emitted and Fuel Consumed are based on an average annual passenger car mileage of 12,500 miles ... Fuel consumption is based on fleetwide average in-use fuel economy of 21.5 miles per gallon (mpg) for passenger cars"
Link here (http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/consumer/f00013.htm)
= 11,450 lbs CO2/year
I don't know much about the lithium supply, but this guy seems to think we are in good shape:
http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2918-lithium-supply-fears-are-total-bs (http://www.ecogeek.org/automobiles/2918-lithium-supply-fears-are-total-bs)
That's a cool comparison. But I have a couple of problems still:
One, these vehicles, despite marketing to the contrary, are NOT zero emissions. They may be very low emissions in comparison to internal combustion engines, but they're not zero emissions.
Two, the concern of CO2 emissions is misplaced. Anthropomorphic Global Warming is a hoax. CO2 emissions are irrelevant. It's all smoke and mirrors (no pun intended).
I would be hard-pressed to disagree with you about the marketing. Just like omitting the carbon footprint of the production of gasoline, only comparing what comes out of the tailpipes is not fair or complete. But that is a marketing problem and not an engineering or environmental problem...
Anthropomorphic global warming is a much longer and much politicaler discussion :)
This sums it up for me better than I could
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_itPEoTvu3wg/Syo-gKFiYlI/AAAAAAAABFw/r5cxmHDAjaE/s400/091207usatC.slideshow_main.prod_affiliate.91.jpg)
The gub'ment wants you to have one. Check out www.dsireusa.org (//http://) (//http://) for state by state tax incentives. Even slow moving vehicles (ie golf carts) get a credit.
EDIT: Forgot the "USA" on the link.
Quote from: il d00d on March 02, 2010, 08:39:41 PM
This sums it up for me better than I could
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_itPEoTvu3wg/Syo-gKFiYlI/AAAAAAAABFw/r5cxmHDAjaE/s400/091207usatC.slideshow_main.prod_affiliate.91.jpg)
love it!
Quote from: NorDog on March 02, 2010, 07:56:47 PM
One, these vehicles, despite marketing to the contrary, are NOT zero emissions. They may be very low emissions in comparison to internal combustion engines, but they're not zero emissions.
wait, what do they emmit? and how? I think your confused.
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 03, 2010, 03:21:52 AM
wait, what do they emmit? and how? I think your confused.
The batteries need to be charged.
hell no!
has anyone looked at the recycling and cost of creating the batteries? IMO it's not better than gas so I'll stick to hydrogen if and when it comes.
Quote from: mitt on March 02, 2010, 03:11:25 PM
The greenest thing to do though is limit driving - either by living close to work, or by working remotely. I am always surprised the number of coworkers that drive more than 30 miles each way everyday and think nothing of it.
mitt
I used to have a coworker that commuted -daily- from Cherry Hill NJ to downtown Manhattan. 2.5 hours each way.
I asked him why, and he said it very simply...
We have four kids. Cherry Hill has nice homes for decent prices (compared to the NYC metro). I can send my kids to public school there and they'll end up at Harvard, whereas the public schools in NYC are garbage, and what I do simply doesn't exist in Cherry Hill or (nearby) philly.
It really opened my (then single and childless) eyes. He could not afford to live in or close to NYC and where he needed to live, he couldn't make enough money.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 03, 2010, 03:25:18 AM
The batteries need to be charged.
right, the car doesn't emit though. And, depending on where and how you charge, its still less polluting than everyone driving a v6 around. think of it as public transportation, everyone is sharing a power plant, no matter what kind, that is going to be there, burning shit anyway.
Quote from: il d00d on March 02, 2010, 08:39:41 PM
I would be hard-pressed to disagree with you about the marketing. Just like omitting the carbon footprint of the production of gasoline, only comparing what comes out of the tailpipes is not fair or complete. But that is a marketing problem and not an engineering or environmental problem...
Anthropomorphic global warming is a much longer and much politicaler discussion :)
This sums it up for me better than I could
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_itPEoTvu3wg/Syo-gKFiYlI/AAAAAAAABFw/r5cxmHDAjaE/s400/091207usatC.slideshow_main.prod_affiliate.91.jpg)
Yeah, but a marketing problem born of BS. Much like the itemized list of benefits. Sure, those are great things, but are they real? Are they really attainable? The problem with the AGW crowd, in part, is found in their Utopian vision which never seems to grasp the eternal reality that there are always problems.
Rather, the Utopians will tell you that the current course of action is pure folly and destruction, but their course of action is...
Energy Independence
Preserve Rainforests
Sustainability
Green Jobs
Livable Cities
Renewables
etc. etc.
Beware the Utopians. They sell fantasies.
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 03, 2010, 04:04:15 AM
right, the car doesn't emit though. And, depending on where and how you charge, its still less polluting than everyone driving a v6 around. think of it as public transportation, everyone is sharing a power plant, no matter what kind, that is going to be there, burning shit anyway.
it burns shit based on load. if everyone drives an electric car, the load increases.
it is not a 1:1 comparison either way. a gas powered car uses no energy sitting, whereas an electric one is either discharging (no battery is perfect) or charging (connected to the grid), thus there has to be some factoring for waste by the electrics and increased powerplant emissions.
moreover, the power grid would have to be upgraded significantly. how many cars are on the road? i remember reading it is something like 200 million. if only 10% of them become electric overnight, what kind of impact on the electrical grid is that? probably a lot worse that we can imagine.
so now figure in the cost to upgrade the grid, as well as the increased waste.
lastly, unless someone develops super-sized batteries (for the power plants to discharge into when demand drops), there will be heat discharge as power plants dump overage into heat sinks.
i do think electric is an interesting option, but it simply doesn't compare to internal combustion as a convenient and useful propulsion system outside of totally urban areas.
i think i just solved the problem with how to make clean renewable energy.
get the energizer bunny to have kids.
everyone gets one and the only thing we have to do is sound insulate wherever you keep them so we arent' driven apeshit by the constant drumming.
Quote from: DucatiTorrey on March 03, 2010, 04:04:15 AM
right, the car doesn't emit though. And, depending on where and how you charge, its still less polluting than everyone driving a v6 around. think of it as public transportation, everyone is sharing a power plant, no matter what kind, that is going to be there, burning shit anyway.
are you playing lawyer today? ;D
The use/manufacture of the car creates emissions...albeit less than a typical internal combustion engine. Those manufacturing emissions are figured into the averages for an internal combustion vehicle and to ignore them on an electric vehicle is ludicrous.
http://www.longdrivesolar.com/Long_Drive/Home.html (http://www.longdrivesolar.com/Long_Drive/Home.html)
http://www.badboybuggies.com/ (http://www.badboybuggies.com/)
Think of how cool youd look rockin one of these!
Quote from: ducpainter on March 03, 2010, 04:26:28 AM
are you playing lawyer today? ;D
The use/manufacture of the car creates emissions...albeit less than a typical internal combustion engine. Those manufacturing emissions are figured into the averages for an internal combustion vehicle and to ignore them on an electric vehicle is ludicrous.
Ludicrous? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking we just need to develop technology that allows us to capture all the pollutants from an internal combustion engine so we can take them down to the coal burning power plant and release them there. Presto! The Corvette and F-350 are now emmissions free!
Quote from: NorDog on March 03, 2010, 06:23:03 AM
Ludicrous? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking we just need to develop technology that allows us to capture all the pollutants from an internal combustion engine so we can take them down to the coal burning power plant and release them there. Presto! The Corvette and F-350 are now emmissions free!
You're on to something there.
Quote from: NorDog on March 03, 2010, 06:23:03 AM
Ludicrous? I'm not so sure. I'm thinking we just need to develop technology that allows us to capture all the pollutants from an internal combustion engine so we can take them down to the coal burning power plant and release them there. Presto! The Corvette and F-350 are now emmissions free!
they already have that, it's called a filter. just put one on the tailpipe. some diesels already use them for particulate emissions.
Quote from: ducatiz on March 03, 2010, 07:38:49 AM
they already have that, it's called a filter. just put one on the tailpipe. some diesels already use them for particulate emissions.
Now I just need to get a filter, and mount a Chia Pet next to my tailpipe to scrub out the CO2, and problem solved!
Let the Polar Bears LIVE!!
Quote from: NorDog on March 03, 2010, 07:53:23 AM
Now I just need to get a filter, and mount a Chia Pet next to my tailpipe to scrub out the CO2, and problem solved!
Let the Polar Bears LIVE!!
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: angler on March 02, 2010, 06:09:51 PM
Just a note - killing salmon and sturgeon is pollution (and all sorts of other critters that depend on free flowing rivers). Not an attack on you, but there are trade-offs for ALL energy production.
Agreed. Nothing is free. Although I think overfishing is just as much, if not more, to blame for declining fish populations.
Quote from: Triple J on March 03, 2010, 12:34:15 PM
Agreed. Nothing is free. Although I think overfishing is just as much, if not more, to blame for declining fish populations.
I won't argue for most marine species. I will argue about salmon. The single biggest problems for salmon stocks are spawning habitat degradation, damns removal of instream flow (see Klamath catastrophe). Now low returns are definitely a commercial fishing issue.....a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Even if fishing was shut down, we would still have low numbers due to spawning trouble.
I'm holding out for the US to get off it's ass and set up the infrastructure for NG powered cars.
We've got plenty of it, it packs a solid amount of power by weight and it can be used in the engines we have today.
And if we want to get fancy we can build hybrid cars that come with NG turbine generators to keep the batteries topped off.
Sorry, but I'm not buying an electric car until you can pull into a gas station and have your drained batteries replaced with fresh ones in under 10 minutes.
During my brief stay on this planet, I vow wholeheartedly to burn up as much dead dinosaur juice in my personal conveyances as I possibly can.
Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Repeat.
Amen.
Not ready to go all electric but this cute little hybrid eco concept sounds nice. Don't think it's posted yet.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2010-03-02 (http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2010-03-02)
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on March 03, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
I'm holding out for the US to get off it's ass and set up the infrastructure for NG powered cars.
+1
I assume you've seen the PHILL? It was co-marketed with the CNG Hondas. Company running it went bankrupt.
I tried to get one. Don't have a CNG car, but I know they'll come around.
Here in the People's Яespublic of CA you see a fair number of fleet vehicles running on CNG. But I suspect they're either aftermarket modifications or the manufacturers only make sales to fleet buyers.
Makes sense: If you have a fleet of vehicles, you're already in a position to have your own gas pumps. So why not spend a bit extra and set up CGN refueling (and get clear air tax rebates, etc.)
Quote from: ducatiz on March 03, 2010, 04:03:24 AM
I used to have a coworker that commuted -daily- from Cherry Hill NJ to downtown Manhattan. 2.5 hours each way.
I asked him why, and he said it very simply...
We have four kids. Cherry Hill has nice homes for decent prices (compared to the NYC metro). I can send my kids to public school there and they'll end up at Harvard, whereas the public schools in NYC are garbage, and what I do simply doesn't exist in Cherry Hill or (nearby) philly.
It really opened my (then single and childless) eyes. He could not afford to live in or close to NYC and where he needed to live, he couldn't make enough money.
I am one of these fools too.
Hawley, PA to NYC everyday. Even when gas was at it's highest the numbers still worked in my favor and the only really bad part of the commute is the city and the area immediately surrounding it so I'd have to put up with that anyway.
Whomever wants to admonish me as a gross polluter for living unnecessarily far away do so when you get rid of your truck/SUV and only use things like your bike for purposeful travel only. ;)
I plan to put propane injection on my next diesel, does that count as green?
[evil]
Quote from: angler on March 03, 2010, 06:07:50 PM
I plan to put propane injection on my next diesel, does that count as green?
[evil]
just buy one of those "Carbon Fartprint" stickers. that will do it.
I'd be a little worried driving around with a tank of LP in my car...............
Talk about a big bang on collision with another vehicle or object.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 06:20:44 AM
I'd be a little worried driving around with a tank of LP in my car...............
Talk about a big bang on collision with another vehicle or object.
Lots of CNG/LPG powered vehicles on the road. Almost the whole Rebublic of Kalifornia state vehicle fleet. Metro here in DC is replacing a lot of its older buses with CNG buses. Lots of commercial fleets around here use CNG. Back in the late 70's gas crunch many commercial fleets converted. Every RV has a tank. How many times do you hear of a vehicle going boom? No safety issues that I know of......
There are lots of CNG vehicles where I live (there's even a filler station just 2 miles from my house). I looked into the CNG civics, but they have pretty small tanks and you can only go like 200 miles between fillups. This would work well for my commute, but I'm concerned that'd I'd get stuck somewhere when I couldn't find a CNG station. I bet the iPhone has an app for that though (too bad I don't have an iphone).
I think that as more people adopt hybrid, electric and CNG cars, the price of gasoline will fall as demand drops. I'll be there to enjoy reasonable priced gasoline in my existing metal box.
How much energy/metal does it take to make a new metal box? Does the energy saved by operation these less-oil-dependent cars outweigh the energy/natural resources needed to create a new metal box to replace an existing metal box (of course cars wear out and need to be replaced, but it seems like we build cars faster than we NEED them).
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr/)
http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htm (http://environment.about.com/od/environmentfriendlyautos/a/new_old_cars.htm)
http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/car-ownership-carbon-footprint-460109 (http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/car-ownership-carbon-footprint-460109)
The answer is: it depends. Batteries are nasty, toxic things. Most agree that somewhere around 28% of the total carbon footprint of a new car across its entire lifecycle is in its manufacture. So is it better to keep a well running, low mpg used car. Probably yes. If you have to buy a new car, you are better off, from a green standpoint, buying the highest mpg car out there. That's not necessarily a hybrid. One of the VW diesels gets better mileage without all the electro-motive crap.
Quote from: angler on March 04, 2010, 06:25:01 AM
Lots of CNG/LPG powered vehicles on the road. Almost the whole Rebublic of Kalifornia state vehicle fleet. Metro here in DC is replacing a lot of its older buses with CNG buses. Lots of commercial fleets around here use CNG. Back in the late 70's gas crunch many commercial fleets converted. Every RV has a tank. How many times do you hear of a vehicle going boom? No safety issues that I know of......
I just figured the tank would be much bigger on a vehicle then on a camper/RV.
They must be well protected.
We aren't that advanced in the midwest.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 07:38:48 AM
I just figured the tank would be much bigger on a vehicle then on a camper/RV.
They must be well protected.
We aren't that advanced in the midwest.
The installs that I personally know (farm pick ups) the tank is mounted in the bed - no extra protection. Those CNG/propane pressure vessels are EXTREMELY tough - very difficult to rupture.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 06:20:44 AM
I'd be a little worried driving around with a tank of LP in my car...............
Talk about a big bang on collision with another vehicle or object.
DOT approved CNG tanks are pretty much bomb proof. Even if the valve breaks, there is a checkball inside to prevent gas from flowing out.
I'd say they are safer than a regular gas tank, esp now that many cars have plastic tanks
Interesting info, guys.
So how sturdy is my LP Tank for my grill?
Quote from: ducatiz on March 04, 2010, 09:53:09 AM
DOT approved CNG tanks are pretty much bomb proof. Even if the valve breaks, there is a checkball inside to prevent gas from flowing out.
I'd say they are safer than a regular gas tank, esp now that many cars have plastic tanks
plastic tanks are way better then metal tanks.
they can take a hell of a beating and do not rust.
I've seen the floor pan of cars dented in 2" deep leading up to the tank, a small not leaking scratch in the tank then a dent continuing on to the back of the car. a metal tank would have ruptured with out a doubt.
I still think diesel combustion is the way to go. it fits our infrastructure with minor modification, and we can get burnable hydrocarbons from many sources, I'm telling you watch for Algae based fuels, as that technology grows it will simply replace regular diesel. all auto manufactures have diesel technology.
semi's are the back bone of this country, they need diesel, how many trains are diesel? shipping vessels? we love gasoline but the truth is the diesel engine is a better way to go.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 10:01:11 AM
Interesting info, guys.
So how sturdy is my LP Tank for my grill?
track down the mythbusters episode where they try to 'splode one by shooting it.
Quote from: derby on March 04, 2010, 10:48:51 AM
track down the mythbusters episode where they try to 'splode one by shooting it.
Better yet...Cyrus has a bunch of guns. Go in your backyard and shoot it. Be sure to video it and post it here. ;D
Quote from: derby on March 04, 2010, 10:48:51 AM
track down the mythbusters episode where they try to 'splode one by shooting it.
As I recall, they couldn't get it to explode.
I agree about diesel. The taxation structure for dietsel sucks tho. Almost double that of gas
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 10:01:11 AM
Interesting info, guys.
So how sturdy is my LP Tank for my grill?
What are you gonna try?
Propane was a fad in France years ago. There must have been some big bang some where, cause a lot of communal garages and parking ramps had big signs at the entrance - NO LP CARS
mitt
Quote from: mitt on March 04, 2010, 02:19:24 PM
Propane was a fad in France years ago. There must have been some big bang some where, cause a lot of communal garages and parking ramps had big signs at the entrance - NO LP CARS
mitt
It's all that's available in our area...propane that is.
The infrastructure DM spoke of doesn't and won't exist until T Boone Pickens gets his way. ;D
Quote from: mitt on March 04, 2010, 02:19:24 PM
Propane was a fad in France years ago. There must have been some big bang some where, cause a lot of communal garages and parking ramps had big signs at the entrance - NO LP CARS
mitt
must have been weird for the French to put up English signs like that
maybe it was just a misprint and they meant "NO LE CARS"
pieces of shit..err.. merde...
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 07:38:48 AM
I just figured the tank would be much bigger on a vehicle then on a camper/RV.
They must be well protected.
We aren't that advanced in the midwest.
CNG talks and hardware must meet extremely strict codes. The few NYC bi fuel (CNG gasoline) taxis that went up in after crash flames, after investigation, turned out to be gasoline fires.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 04, 2010, 10:01:11 AM
Interesting info, guys.
So how sturdy is my LP Tank for my grill?
I dunno. Shoot it and find out [evil]
A work colleague and I had this discussion a few times this week. Basically our employer has moved my dept. from a nice, quiet area where we had plenty of parking space for everyone in my team to the heart of Madrid and then cancelled our parking spaces at this new office.
I've started biking it in every morning again however, the rest of my team don't ride motorcycles or scooters. So we did some research and found that Zero Emissions vehicles can park for free inside Madrid. Anywhere, all day.
This would be awesome for all of us however there are no Z.E cars on sale in Spain at the moment. Tesla cars are just OTT on price and the LEAF sounds tempting but it would sell in Spain for around 20,000EUR. That isn't the whole picture however as you have to buy or lease the batteries (only) from Nissan!! On a positive note, the government has already started installing electrical charging points around the city ( I have yet to see one of these ).
Unfortunately I don't have a private garage anymore so I wouldn't be able to charge the car up at home (communal garage) but on a 3 phase socket the charge time is minimal at 220v.
We have electric scooters by Vectrix that have been on sale for a few years now but, as with any scoot that costs nearly the same as a GSXR600. I haven't seen one yet.
If I had a charging point near my new home and near the office I would buy one. It could work out cheaper than riding a motorcycle.
Quote from: ducatiz on March 03, 2010, 04:12:32 AM
moreover, the power grid would have to be upgraded significantly. how many cars are on the road? i remember reading it is something like 200 million. if only 10% of them become electric overnight, what kind of impact on the electrical grid is that? probably a lot worse that we can imagine.
so now figure in the cost to upgrade the grid, as well as the increased waste.
This is an excellent point.
The current U.S. power grid is at or above max load as it is. The increased load of multiple thousands of electric cars all being plugged in at approximately the same time would almost certainly result in blackouts.
Highest electrical usage is during summer months in the early evening, as this is when the majority of the working population returns home, and turns on electrical appliances such as stoves, A/C units, water heaters, etc. Adding the load from recharging vehicles will only exacerbate the problem.
Witness the brownouts in the past decade in California, Chicago, and NYC.
Therefore, any large scale electric vehicle production would require an upgrade in the electrical power grid. Power cable is manufactured of copper or aluminum, and a coating of plastic. Copper and aluminum are both mined and refined, using strip and open pit mining, and all of the unused material from the mining and refining processes are discarded, adding to pollution levels and our carbon footprint. Most plastics are refined from. . . wait for it. . . petroleum!
Therefore, any analysis of the carbo footprint of an electric vehicle must take into account not only the materials used to build the vehicle and generate the power for it, but also the materials used to provide the infrastructure to deliver power from the generating plant to the end user.
Quote from: Bun-bun on March 05, 2010, 06:07:49 AM
This is an excellent point.
The current U.S. power grid is at or above max load as it is. The increased load of multiple thousands of electric cars all being plugged in at approximately the same time would almost certainly result in blackouts.
Highest electrical usage is during summer months in the early evening, as this is when the majority of the working population returns home, and turns on electrical appliances such as stoves, A/C units, water heaters, etc. Adding the load from recharging vehicles will only exacerbate the problem.
Witness the brownouts in the past decade in California, Chicago, and NYC.
Therefore, any large scale electric vehicle production would require an upgrade in the electrical power grid. Power cable is manufactured of copper or aluminum, and a coating of plastic. Copper and aluminum are both mined and refined, using strip and open pit mining, and all of the unused material from the mining and refining processes are discarded, adding to pollution levels and our carbon footprint. Most plastics are refined from. . . wait for it. . . petroleum!
Therefore, any analysis of the carbo footprint of an electric vehicle must take into account not only the materials used to build the vehicle and generate the power for it, but also the materials used to provide the infrastructure to deliver power from the generating plant to the end user.
i *heart* you
that's what i keep pointing out but i suck at the use of words to describe what it is i want to explain.
Quote from: Bun-bun on March 05, 2010, 06:07:49 AM
This is an excellent point.
well thank you.
QuoteCopper and aluminum are both mined and refined, using strip and open pit mining, and all of the unused material from the mining and refining processes are discarded, adding to pollution levels and our carbon footprint. Most plastics are refined from. . . wait for it. . . petroleum!
Copper mining and refinement is particularly expensive and pollution-prone if old methods are used. Much of the current copper we get comes from huge strip mines and even the best stewarding methods leave a lot to be desired.
The price of copper has incresaed something like 300% in the last 10 years as a result of China's industrialization and modernization as well.
Check out this article if you want a good idea of what it would take to accomodate EVs on the existing grid - it is very doable.
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Economic_Analysis_Part2_Final.pdf (http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Economic_Analysis_Part2_Final.pdf)
I quoted this in this thread (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=32504.45), where we did the math on capacity.
Re: CNG. Someone remind me why we would want to build infrastructure to get CNG it to stations to put into cars that run at 20-30% efficiency, as opposed to taking the same gas, and running power stations that run at 50% efficiency or more. CNG engines are at best 30% cleaner per mile than gas engines. Please include the expense and carbon footprint (if you are so inclined) of building all those stations (which will likely be supplied by pipes and not trucks), the effect of increased demand and distribution costs, and assume that I know that CNG is cheap and domestic
Quote from: il d00d on March 05, 2010, 08:18:13 AM
Check out this article if you want a good idea of what it would take to accomodate EVs on the existing grid - it is very doable.
http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Economic_Analysis_Part2_Final.pdf (http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Economic_Analysis_Part2_Final.pdf)
The authors of this paper make some assumptions that I think may be unrealistic. For example; P.7 "We assume that all charging takes place from the time period 10pm to 6am, and that all additional generation will fit into the valley without creating new system peaks."
I believe a much more likely scenario would be that the EV owner arrives home from work, pulls into his garage, plugs in his EV, goes into his house, and turns on his A/C, TV, and starts cooking dinner on his/her electric stove, all during peak hours. Further, given the scenario above, current battery recharging technology (NiuCD, and Li) recharges batteries to approximately 80% in the first 20% of charging time. The final 20% of recharging is accomplished at a comparative trickle over the remaining charging time. Therefore, the majority of electricity used for recharging is used in the first hours, again at peak given my above scenario.
Also, much of the data the authors rely upon was generated in 2003-2004. Energy demands have grown significantly in the past 5-6 years, whereas infrastructure growth has been outpaced by demand
during peak hours since the 1980's.
To answer the question posed by the OP, yes, I would consider purchase of an all electric car, if it would meet my needs. At present, I would have to "settle" for a hybrid.
I have (and have had for almost two years) a deposit on an Aptera 2h
http://www.apteraforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2 (http://www.apteraforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2).
It originally had a "high-efficiency" diesel generator (to recharge the batteries) and a range of 350 miles.
Now it is a gasoline generator, and they are changing the door openings and it will be out ?soon?
I am still (very cautiously) hopeful.
I wouldn't buy an electric car yet...but, I would buy a brammo e-bike if a Monster wasn't in my near future.
Cool, electric bikes can be loud in a star wars sort of way.
MOTOCZYSZ E1 TEST (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XKbwWfbxNU#normal)
MOTOCZYSZ E1 AT PIR!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmSswrLbmgc&feature=related#normal)
Quote from: Bun-bun on March 05, 2010, 03:10:10 PM
The authors of this paper make some assumptions that I think may be unrealistic. For example; P.7 "We assume that all charging takes place from the time period 10pm to 6am, and that all additional generation will fit into the valley without creating new system peaks."
I believe a much more likely scenario would be that the EV owner arrives home from work, pulls into his garage, plugs in his EV, goes into his house, and turns on his A/C, TV, and starts cooking dinner on his/her electric stove, all during peak hours.
I see what your saying...BUT...what if the charging unit has some sort of timer. Plug it in when you get home at 6...it only trickles (or does nothing) until 10pm, after which it start charging.
If the energy grid being used at peak hours is an issue, this would be a simple solution.
Quote from: lethe on March 07, 2010, 01:32:30 PM
Cool, electric bikes can be loud in a star wars sort of way.
so did they TRY to make it sound like a Landspeeder??
That is One ANNOYING NOISE!
Quote from: Vindingo on March 02, 2010, 12:37:28 PMI don't have 220 anywhere near the front of the house, and based on the electricians thread, it will cost me about $25,000 to get service to the front of the house.
I spit out some of my beer when I read that...LOLOLOL!
Quote from: TAftonomos on March 07, 2010, 06:22:05 PM
I spit out some of my beer when I read that...LOLOLOL!
yeah, i hope he meant pesos.
TIE fighter!
We're getting these soon..
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/03/mitsubishi-firms-agreement-to-sell-electric-car-to-psa-peugeot-citroen.html (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/03/mitsubishi-firms-agreement-to-sell-electric-car-to-psa-peugeot-citroen.html)
Quote from: NuTTs on March 11, 2010, 12:25:12 PM
We're getting these soon..
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/03/mitsubishi-firms-agreement-to-sell-electric-car-to-psa-peugeot-citroen.html (http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/03/mitsubishi-firms-agreement-to-sell-electric-car-to-psa-peugeot-citroen.html)
eww a golf cart with the jellybean body kit option. :P
i would buy one if it looks like one of the cars from the film "Sleeper"