Cant seem to really find the answer anywhere, but if you wanted strong bits for drilling into metal such as bolts.
Whats the best kind of bit to go with? There are cobolt ones and High Speed Steel. Are they just coated in cobolt like the ttitanium coated ones? or is it an alloy?
Im looking to pick up a set of Left handed drill bits and put together a bolt extractor kit.
On another note, i also managed to break an extractor trying to get a bolt out. Whats the best way to get the extractor out? In the end i managed to get a nice bite on it, and spun it loose then picked it out with a file. Never want to go through that again.
I've had real good luck with the Milwaukee brand Cobalt bits for drilling hardened steel. I make custom knives and sometimes need to drill heat treated tool steel. Highspeed steel bits and Titanium Nitride bits just skate around on the blade but those Milwaukee Cobalts punch through like I'm drilling angle iron. Other cobalt brands may be just as good or better but I don't have any first hand experience with them to comment.
I think most of the coated bits are gimmicky. Never used any cobalt bits. Get some good bits and a sharpener like the 'Drill Doctor'. Sharp bits will drill your hardware.
About the extractor removal...you got lucky. There's no good way. I've seen expensive EDM machines ruin a part.
thats not a good thing to hear i got lucky, because i can only inmagine how bad it can get.
I think the coatings are BS too. Thats why im wondering if cobalt bits are coatings or alloys. If its a coating i could care less because when i sharpen the edge the coatings gone so whats the point?
So I guess High Speed steel is the prefered choice?
theres also Carbide tipped. They say thats good for hardened steel, so good for getting out bolt extractors if they break?
Quote from: He Man on March 12, 2010, 03:26:19 PM
thats not a good thing to hear i got lucky, because i can only inmagine how bad it can get.
I think the coatings are BS too. Thats why im wondering if cobalt bits are coatings or alloys. If its a coating i could care less because when i sharpen the edge the coatings gone so whats the point?
So I guess High Speed steel is the prefered choice?
theres also Carbide tipped. They say thats good for hardened steel, so good for getting out bolt extractors if they break?
A carbide bit would be the only thing I can think of that might work. Extractors are really hard...and brittle as you discovered
I broke off an extractor bit in one of the bolts holding the handlebar clamp on. It was in really good too, no possibility of getting it out, and it was positioned in such a way that getting a drill bit in there wasn't happening. I finally pounded in a hex bit with a hammer, what a PITA that was.
High speed steel is good. Carbide is better. The coated ones I also agree with are a gimmick.
mitt
Find a machine shop or metal shop that makes their own bits, and as ducpainter said, get a bit sharpener.
Cobalt drill bits are not a coating. When doing a big project with stainless, we used them instead of HSS. Im going to +3 on those TiNi coated bits being crap. Most big brand name bits you are going to get at HD or Lowes will be crap, get dull really fast or break.
If you can't find a machine shop that makes bits, ask them where they get theirs.
Solid carbide. [thumbsup]
Quote from: He Man on March 12, 2010, 02:56:36 PM
Whats the best way to get the extractor out?
If you aspire to internet infamy, then sawzall. (http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2684546) Definitely that.
Quote from: Speedbag on March 12, 2010, 05:53:12 PM
Solid carbide. [thumbsup]
holy crap that stuff aint cheap!
What kinda sizes do you guys recommend? Im thinking a few 1/8th, 3/16 and 5/16 left handed jabbers to drill the hole and a #1 and a #2 extractor to match.
and 2 carbide tipped ones in case shit hits the fan. oh and a butane pen torch. :p
Quote from: il d00d on March 12, 2010, 06:16:42 PM
If you aspire to internet infamy, then sawzall. (http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2684546) Definitely that.
The bolts stuck on the front of the frame... so you want me to cut the frame in half? [laugh]
If you're drilling freehand, don't bother getting solid carbide drills, you'll just break 'em.
Why are you drilling out bolts to begin with? How many bolts you rounding off? ???
yea i broke a HSS 1/8bit already. :(
MrI i aint rounding anything its for the "oh shit the bolt head snapped off!" situations where i want to be able to whip out a kit instead of improvising and wasting time traveling to the store to get the right shit. next thing you know its 5pm and somehow your drunk and nothings been done cause you took a trip to home depot but ended up at beer depot.
Meh. Use more penetrating oil and less force.
cobalt tools have cobalt added into the alloy... and are better than high speed steel. the split point and 135* tip is nice, too, when it comes to drilling harder stuff. I don't think I've ever come across HSS with a split point... new, anyway...
and this may be a silly question, but do you have a drill press? way easier than pistol drilling anything metal.
for sizes, i'd look into getting a selection of drills that will be smaller than all the thread tap sizes you're likely to come across.
oh! coolant! some sort of lubricant for the point of cut makes for happy drilling, as well
There is just no good way to get out a bolt one the head is gone. Best bet is too soak it forever in a high quality penetrating oil (Aero Kroil is my favorite, jeep guys seem to think PB blaster is awesome) before breaking it off and then just really take your time with a high quality 6 point socket. Once it is broken off, I use a left handed cobalt bit taking it nice and slow. Sometimes the left handed bit will break it loose. Once drilled, I've got a Snap-on extractor kit that I use. If the extractor doesn't work, you get the joy of drilling the bolt out and picking the pieces from the threads. Usually have to run a tap through it after that.
I dont have a drill press, but its not like it matters, its not like i can put the part (usually still on the bike) onto the drill press anyway so i have to free hand it.
The most common bolts would be M5-M10. buydrillbits.com doesnt have metric sizes for left handed bits.
In all the bits ive broken, ive only just recently develop the muscle memory to just let the bit do its job. cause i watch my frined break 4 of my bits on his bike causd he pressed to hard. You sometiems just want to stab it go fast and press as hard as u can, but it never works out well.
as fars penetrating oil goes. Ive seen people heat up the bolt and then throw wax on it, as it cools the wax seeps into the threads and acts a dry lube. Has anyone ever tried this or is penetrating oil the best way to go.
Quote from: He Man on March 13, 2010, 08:50:25 AM
buydrillbits.com doesnt have metric sizes for left handed bits.
You don't need to worry about fractional/metric. They have more than enough spread to cover drilling out a broken bolt. As far as the wax goes, I doubt it would work as well as something that stays liquid at room temp. Just spray it and leave it overnight. Much easier than fixing a broken bolt.
My extractor set is the Snap On EXDL10. Works well for most bolt sizes on a motorcycle. Whatever you buy, just realize that you will break bits. Make sure you can get replacements. When extracting a bolt, drill bits are expendable. Expensive, but expendable.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=10418&PartNo=EXDL10&group_id=1254&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?search=true&item_ID=10418&PartNo=EXDL10&group_id=1254&supersede=&store=snapon-store&tool=all)
Awesome, thanks for the help. I have another question.
What about drill for a clean hole for new threads? Will a 6mm bit work for a 6mm tap? or do i need to make the hole bigger/smaller?
Quote from: He Man on March 13, 2010, 09:11:33 AM
Awesome, thanks for the help. I have another question.
What about drill for a clean hole for new threads? Will a 6mm bit work for a 6mm tap? or do i need to make the hole bigger/smaller?
That's where there are optimum sizes.
You'd need a smaller bit.
Doesn't Google go to your computer?
http://www.newmantools.com/tapdrill.htm (http://www.newmantools.com/tapdrill.htm)
doh. Thanks ducpainter. i didnt even look at google.
Quote from: He Man on March 13, 2010, 09:23:04 AM
doh. Thanks ducpainter. i didnt even look at google.
Keep in mind all the tables are for a 75% thread.
If you can't get a metric drill do the conversion and use the closest drill you can. If the bit is smaller you'll have deeper thread or maybe 80%.
If you have a slightly larger bit you'll have a shallower weaker thread.
Always use a good quality cutting oil on taps. They'll cut better more accurate threads and the taps will last longer.
Also if you don't know how to tap holes, do some research. Do not just crank the tap down in your newly drilled hole. You'll find you won't like the answer for how to drill out a broken tap ;D
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 13, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
Also if you don't know how to tap holes, do some research. Do not just crank the tap down in your newly drilled hole. You'll find you won't like the answer for how to drill out a broken tap ;D
We were gonna cover that next week. :P
i use carbide bits to drill hardened steel in safes when some one has a LOCK out. i suggest covering the broken tip with JB weld to give a soft surface to start the hole on and it will keep it bit from sliding off and going off center.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 13, 2010, 09:41:46 AM
Also if you don't know how to tap holes, do some research. Do not just crank the tap down in your newly drilled hole. You'll find you won't like the answer for how to drill out a broken tap ;D
These are fun... [evil]
(http://flexarminc.thomasnet.com/Asset/T-A32.gif)
Quote from: ducpainter on March 13, 2010, 09:42:30 AM
We were gonna cover that next week. :P
1 guy's garage live feed!
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 12, 2010, 07:02:22 PM
Meh. Use more penetrating oil and less force.
+1
That Breakfree shit or whatever the product in the yellow bottle is good shit.
I always spray it on a bolt I know will be hard to get off, let it sit for 10-20mins, spray again, let stand again, then it comes right off.
From my experience, Ducati must have some ownership in Loctite or a cement company because some of their bolts are so glued in, it isn't even funny.
I was never able to get off my left side foot peg assembly. I had a 4ft breaker bar and still couldn't extract one of those huge hex heads. I got it loose enough to spin the assembly to get the side cover off (was changing the starter on my 99 750).
I guess if I had air tools, this probably wouldn't have been a problem.........
Almost everything I work on is some ancient rusty car.
I've never had an issue loosening a bolt on anything built after He Man was.
I have a set of these drill bits and really like them (and I see they raised the price since I bought my set)http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=7742&group_ID=931&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=7742&group_ID=931&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog)
Those bits will cut just about anything if you use a good cutting oil, except boron, but that's a whole different animal.
Also, when using a tap for cutting new threads, it's VERY important to use cutting oil. If you don't, the tap can get plugged up with metal shavings and break the tap when you back it out of the hole. Ask me how I know.
Quote from: mojo on March 13, 2010, 05:04:02 PM
If you don't, the tap can get plugged up with metal shavings and break the tap when you back it out of the hole. Ask me how I know.
everyone does it once ;)
It all comes down to the right tool for the job. . .
If you're trying to remove a headless bolt and you can get to the back side of said bolt. . .
use a drill press with a RH twist bit, push hard and it should "unscrew" the broken bolt. If you have a 1/8 drill in there, push hard enough to start bending it, but not so hard it snaps. You need it to really "dig" into the bolt material to provide leverage to unscrew it.
If you can't get to the backside and haven't already messed up the exposed bolt surface. . .
take it to a weld shop and have them tack weld a smaller bolt to what's left.
Remove as normal.
Precision Twist Drill makes just about everyone's private label drills. I don't specifically know they make SnapOn's drills, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Coatings on drills DO make a difference.
But not in a home shop or with a hand drill so don't spend the extra money on them. Just get a decent set of Jobber Length HSS with black oxide coating. My favorite all around drill for metal.
For tougher jobs go with split point cobalt drills. They can spin a little faster than a HSS JL drill and stand up to heat and abrasion better (cause of the higher cobalt content)
Carbide drills are really only useful if you have a CNC machine to put it in. Sometimes a bridgeport will work, but the setup needs to be rigid or the drill will chip.
Carbide is like 90Rc and doesn't tolerate movement/vibration too well.
Carbide tipped drills are, for the most part, junk. They're ancient technology. Well, unless you're needing to drill concrete, but that's an entirely different drill design.
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 15, 2010, 12:24:28 PM
It all comes down to the right tool for the job. . .
If you're trying to remove a headless bolt and you can get to the back side of said bolt. . .
use a drill press with a RH twist bit, push hard and it should "unscrew" the broken bolt. If you have a 1/8 drill in there, push hard enough to start bending it, but not so hard it snaps. You need it to really "dig" into the bolt material to provide leverage to unscrew it.
If you can't get to the backside and haven't already messed up the exposed bolt surface. . .
take it to a weld shop and have them tack weld a smaller bolt to what's left.
Remove as normal.
Precision Twist Drill makes just about everyone's private label drills. I don't specifically know they make SnapOn's drills, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Coatings on drills DO make a difference.
But not in a home shop or with a hand drill so don't spend the extra money on them. Just get a decent set of Jobber Length HSS with black oxide coating. My favorite all around drill for metal.
For tougher jobs go with split point cobalt drills. They can spin a little faster than a HSS JL drill and stand up to heat and abrasion better (cause of the higher cobalt content)
Carbide drills are really only useful if you have a CNC machine to put it in. Sometimes a bridgeport will work, but the setup needs to be rigid or the drill will chip.
Carbide is like 90Rc and doesn't tolerate movement/vibration too well.
Carbide tipped drills are, for the most part, junk. They're ancient technology. Well, unless you're needing to drill concrete, but that's an entirely different drill design.
Your post is utterly
boring.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 15, 2010, 01:43:09 PM
Your post is utterly boring.
Friggen engineers...
push away from the desk and...
pick up a drill bit for cryin' out loud. [laugh]
Quote from: ducpainter on March 15, 2010, 03:27:43 PM
Friggen engineers...
push away from the desk and...
pick up a drill bit for cryin' out loud. [laugh]
[laugh]
but without that shameless disconnect, what are we to gripe about over beers after work? the engineers can't
know what we do; it would make things too easy!
Quote from: teddy037.2 on March 15, 2010, 03:30:09 PM
[laugh]
but without that shameless disconnect, what are we to gripe about over beers after work? the engineers can't know what we do; it would make things too easy!
They're too busy reading about how dood...
not to worry.
Everything is everything. ;D
Quote from: teddy037.2 on March 15, 2010, 03:30:09 PM
[laugh]
but without that shameless disconnect, what are we to gripe about over beers after work? the engineers can't know what we do; it would make things too easy!
Hey hey hey!
Just go make it how I wanted it made. Ignore the print.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 15, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
Hey hey hey!
Just go make it how I wanted it made. Ignore the print.
They all know how to draw.... [roll] ;D
Monsterlover's post was spot on.
If you can find them I really like either stub drills or 6" aircraft drills, both have reduced (about and inch) length flutes. I you think about it how often in metal do you drill thru more than an inch of material. With less flutes they are a lot less prone to becoming two piece drill bits.
Taps... my favorites are two flute spiral point (gun taps), they also make a version for blind holes (looks like a corncob).
Monsterlover do you remember 'Tap Free' in the red and white tin cans, smelled like cinnamon. Has since be outlawed because it had trichloroethane in it, great stuff especially in SS.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 15, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
Hey hey hey!
Just go make it how I wanted it made. Ignore the print.
[laugh]
haven't heard that one before
Quote from: teddy037.2 on March 15, 2010, 04:44:02 PM
[laugh]
haven't heard that one before
Yeah but you know it's true.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 15, 2010, 04:55:42 PM
Yeah but you know it's true.
yeah...
sad...
our engineers are a bit more passive aggressive ;D
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 15, 2010, 04:55:42 PM
Yeah but you know it's true.
Tolerances...
are just guidelines...
if you're the one drawing the print.... [roll]
Quote from: sno_duc on March 15, 2010, 03:48:24 PM
Monsterlover do you remember 'Tap Free' in the red and white tin cans, smelled like cinnamon. Has since be outlawed because it had trichloroethane in it, great stuff especially in SS.
I remember tap juice from tapmatic that came in a red and white can. Not sure it that had TCE or not.
Chlorinated paraphins and EP (extreme pressure) additives really help at the point of cut in yucky material like stainless and heat resistant super alloys.
But in the garage....
Anything helps. Motor oil, wd40, spit, anything :)
tapping is not the fine art people make it out to be. I've tapped plenty by hand with a cordless drill.
I've driven bigger taps (that I didn't have a big enough wrench for) with a socket and impact gun. :D
75% thread is asking for tap destruction. Go with 65% or even 60%
If your life depends on the thread not failing have a shop do it ;)
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 15, 2010, 06:06:20 PM
<snip>
If your life depends on the thread not failing have a shop do it ;)
What if you
are the shop? ;D
I think you're making it harder than it is.
It really depends on the drilled hole.
It all starts there.
If you are the shop...
Better get it right.
;)
Standard rule of thumb on tap drills.
Fastener diameter - thread pitch = tap drill diameter
For example, M6x1.0:
6mm - 1mm = 5mm
1/4 - 20:
.250" - .050" = .200"
or
hold the bolt up behind the bit
see threads only = good
see threads and shaft = bad
[thumbsup]
Quote from: Speeddog on March 15, 2010, 07:19:13 PM
Standard rule of thumb on tap drills.
Fastener diameter - thread pitch = tap drill diameter
For example, M6x1.0:
6mm - 1mm = 5mm
1/4 - 20:
.250" - .050" = .200"
this works great, used that method for years.
It stops working when you need to cut a 10-32 or 12-24 or 4-40 thread (or any of those wacky # threads)
I wish we'd just switch to the metric system ;D
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 02:52:40 AM
It stops working when you need to cut a 10-32 or 12-24 or 4-40 thread (or any of those wacky # threads)
And it's amazing in a noisy machine shop, the 'tink' sound that a # tap makes as it turns into a multiple piece tap is heard by everyone in the whole shop. They all turn and ;D at you [bang] [bang].
I know. :) I also find it interesting that after some time in a shop when you hear a smash/crash sound nobody even moves.
When a machine wrecks everyone turns and looks. They sound similar, but it's easy to tell when you need to duck and when it doesn't matter [laugh]
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 02:52:40 AM
this works great, used that method for years.
It stops working when you need to cut a 10-32 or 12-24 or 4-40 thread (or any of those wacky # threads)
I wish we'd just switch to the metric system ;D
don't hate on fine thd. they have a purpose in life, too ;)
Quote from: sno_duc on March 16, 2010, 05:55:45 AM
And it's amazing in a noisy machine shop, the 'tink' sound that a # tap makes as it turns into a multiple piece tap is heard by everyone in the whole shop. They all turn and ;D at you [bang] [bang].
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 06:06:33 AM
I know. :) I also find it interesting that after some time in a shop when you hear a smash/crash sound nobody even moves.
When a machine wrecks everyone turns and looks. They sound similar, but it's easy to tell when you need to duck and when it doesn't matter [laugh]
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Hey, if we could switch all of the 6-32's to 6-40's, that'd be a big improvement.
those small threads aren't really *that* bad, but when you get really small, like 0-80, then the suckage starts.
Usually because some engineer drew up a print that wants that 0-80 thread next to a wall that's 2" high and they want the thread a half inch deep.
In inconel 718 or some other nastilloy material ;D
I'll get right on that [laugh]
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
those small threads aren't really *that* bad, but when you get really small, like 0-80, then the suckage starts.
Usually because some engineer drew up a print that wants that 0-80 thread next to a wall that's 2" high and they want the thread a half inch deep.
In inconel 718 or some other nastilloy material ;D
I'll get right on that [laugh]
;D
is that an admission of guilt?
;D
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 07:29:43 AM
those small threads aren't really *that* bad, but when you get really small, like 0-80, then the suckage starts.
Usually because some engineer drew up a print that wants that 0-80 thread next to a wall that's 2" high and they want the thread a half inch deep.
In inconel 718 or some other nastilloy material ;D
I'll get right on that [laugh]
lol
smallest I've dealt with was a 3... in 304 cres :-X
Where's Billy Mays when we need him the most? [roll]
[laugh]
mighty drill!
Back when I was the engineer at a small machine shop....
A customer had submitted prints to us for a ROM bid, we had given him the bid, and he had accepted.
He was fine-tuning the prints so that we could give him the final $ amount and get started.
He called and asked what the tap drill size was for a 000-120.
I told him I didn't think it was in my best interest to give him that info. [laugh]
I hand tapped 6 of those, granted the hole was drilled on our CNC, but it was a bit stressful. :P
If the part will fit, a heated ultra sonic cleaner can help.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 16, 2010, 10:12:29 AM
Back when I was the engineer at a small machine shop....
A customer had submitted prints to us for a ROM bid, we had given him the bid, and he had accepted.
He was fine-tuning the prints so that we could give him the final $ amount and get started.
He called and asked what the tap drill size was for a 000-120.
I told him I didn't think it was in my best interest to give him that info. [laugh]
I hand tapped 6 of those, granted the hole was drilled on our CNC, but it was a bit stressful. :P
that is so wrong
Quote from: Monsterlover on March 16, 2010, 10:50:35 AM
that is so wrong
Well, I did give him the info, and we did get a final cut at the bid. [laugh]
Freakin' tiny screws.