Ducati Monster Forum

I'm sure this is going to incite some conversation of sorts...  but based on the following things I've seen the past few weeks/months:

* Stock Monster are selling for same as bolt-on accessorized Monsters
* I know financially most heavily accessoried Monsters w/bolt-on parts are usually stripped and sold in pieces (or returned to stock) to get the return back on investment.  Is this due to the fact that anybody can built a bike like this? (no true heavy modifications ala frame/engine)
* Stuart / Duck-Stew's Bobber:  heavily modifed and yet it keeps rapidly dropping in valuation.  Is it the bike or is it not finding the right demographic of person to buy it?  Or is it appearing "for sale" too often now?
* Black Fog / Monster S4. (note: Not for sale!) But when it first debuted, I had offers for it from outside the Ducati community for greater sums than the bike / labor to actually build it.  It really surprised me with people showing up with cash.  I'm glad Mike kept it though and is enjoying it.  No clue what it would sell for now?
* There was a 999S out of Texas that has over $150K in aftermarket parts bolted to it.  Last I heard it was possibly for sale for $30K with no offers and more money being poured into it.  Definitely the winner of the "more money than brains club" that I have ever heard of.
* Section 8 Monster / Detroit / Monster Challenge entry -- I don't think it ever sold.  But the cost to build it was more than what it was offered for on Ebay.  What happened to this cool bike?  Was it ever ridden?  Did anyone ever get to push the nitrous bottle and see if it worked?
* Ducati / Ferrari thing from Bob in Florida that appears on eBay every other month.  It hasn't sold in years.  Ugly as sin -- but I'm surprised there isn't some yuppie somewhere wanting it.
* Norm's "Gina" debacle -- admittedly after the Speedzilla thrashing it's valuation was non-existant in the marketplace for good reason. 
* Norm / Foggy123's "H1" -- it's for sale in the part section but with nobody jumping at the remnants of it.  What is it worth?
* Alex Ortner's amazing bikes -- most have sold for a good price.  But I doubt Alex ever made "money" for the hundreds of hours he put into them. Fortunately most are a "labor of love" for himself to create something unique.
* 13Choppers -- I used to joke as soon as one was finished, it was on Craigslist or eBay somewhere.  I know Mat's personal bike though has retained it's value over the years and which he rides.  Ditto for others around him.  I don't think any have appeared for awhile though for sale -- hopefully people are riding them.
* My MotoCreations DesmoDevils are different as they are massive amounts of labor involved (and money).  None have been sold by the owners and I talk to all of them on a regular basis. Most have turned down offers from people wanting one since I don't build them anymore.  But sometimes I do wonder what would one really sell for via eBay?
* Recently a friend acquired an original 851 -- 100% stock with original exhaust, tires, etc.  Paid a small fortune for it.  Next to it was a tricked out one with racing history and the owner wasn't getting any calls on it at all.
* S4Foggy's -- Limited Edition bike but it hasn't retained it's value
* MH900e -- surprisingly the mint ones with zero or limited mileage are retaining their values.  But I've seen these sell in the $6500 range already with a few thousand miles on them.  Maybe the ones hidden away for another 20 years will be worth something or at least retain original price?
* Just saw a first year 916 still in the shipping crate sell for an insane amount of money -- but it is an iconic bike and these one is now headed to a museum. 
* Current NCR bikes are selling -- but really slowly.  And none are appreciating.
* Older Ducati powered Bimota's are increasing in value -- but it's mainly due to us crazy nostalgic folks who didn't have the money to buy them when new.

Yes -- there are exceptions and variations to the above. 

A) So what are your specific observations in regard to the Ducati Market and the pricing of stock -vs- modified -vs- radical mods?

B) Have you seen something sell that made you ask WTF is going on in terms of pricing / selling prices?

C) If you have a Ducati that is accessorized with bolt-on accessories -- did you keep the stock parts to convert it back before selling?

Discuss!

I think as always, something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. To the guy that HAD to have that crated 916, the insane amount of money he paid for it was worth it to him.

Some of the other bikes just need to find the right buyer. Like Stu's bobber. I love it, some people think it's a disgrace. When it all comes down, the right person will buy it for what it's worth to him...

wow.   lots of stuff to chew on here.   I can only comment from my own perspective...

I have an s4rs with lots of money thrown at it.   It's all bolt-on parts.   I think they make a tremendous difference to the bike and anyone who actually rode mine back to back with a stock bike would recognize the complete difference.

I would gladly pay another 10K over a stock rs for my bike, and anyone who finds one with BSTs and the Termi kit for 15 in the want-adds should grab it (yes...one went for that).  My bike as it sits is easily worth two bikes TO ME when I ride it.

As a buyer, if I build a bolt-on special like mine, or a custom equivelent, I would never expect to resell it, so I would consider it a complete write off from the get go and anything I get out is a bonus.   I sold my stock wheels for a loss to a local and we were both happy, etc.

If I buy a motocreations cafe racer in a few years, I expect to get out of it what I put in...but not in cost...in rider pleasure.   If it tanks in resale after I get it I don't care.

Maybe the market relies on somewhat wealthy idiots like me to buy things and then pass them on.

So I accept that whenever I replace a stock part on my bike to make it a better bike for me, I will eat that cost if I don't save that stock part to put it back to a worse bike for someone who doesn't want what I did.

These things are not practical.   I will spend an absolute fortune for MY taste, and absolutely nothing for someone else's.

For those building.....tap into the market for the first of those  ;D

I don't 'mod' so much as 'tweak': whatever I do, I always make sure I can reverse it if I need to.  ;D My two cent philosophy is to basically try and keep my monster faithful to it's Ducati heritage. Of course, then someone like Celli (or motocreations!) comes along & completely blast that mindset to hell with some awesomely modded bike.  :-[

When I bought my bike, I was specifically looking for bone stock. I don't actually like many of the popular mods and would have had to spend money to return it to  the state I prefer. I actually like Ducatis and believe they do a reasonably good job of designing them to begin with.  Besides, if I change my mind about modifications I'll have a clean slate from which to work rather than being saddled with some other person's preferences and vision. I certainly want time with the bike to figure out what, if anything, I want to change

Mods are worth money to the person who did them to a far greater degree than to a potential purchaser. The only time this isn't true is when the specific combination of bike and mods just happens to match what someone is looking for. I doubt that happens very often, and less often the more radical mods become.

I have kept all my old parts (the original sprocket, license plate frame, mirrors, and exhaust canister in the unlikely event I sell. There's lots of room in the barn.

In the case of the 916, it was likely a collector who wanted a trophy.  But I would think that people buying a used Monster might want a stock bike so that they can add their own twist to it.  If you buy someone elses modded bike, in a way it will always be that other persons bike.  But when you buy a stock bike, it's like starting with an empty canvas.  You can make it your own with the changes you see fit.  You can see yourself on it.  I have a friend in real estate, and when she shows houses, she always wants the seller to try to remove as much personal stuff from sight as possible, because she doesn't want the prospective buyer to be looking at someone elses house, but at a house they might want to buy.  Just my two cents.

A) No observations.  I don't really look in the market unless I am looking to buy

B) No. 

C) I am selling my slightly modded bike as is and I am offering all the stock parts with it.  I don't see the point of stripping my bike and then having a pile of used, aftermarket monster parts laying around.  I certainly do not have the time to put them all on ebay, DML, craigslist or what have you and deal with that whole process.

As a buyer, I wouldn't mind buying a slightly modded bike.  It is pretty easy to change anything the previous owner did that you don't really like.   :-\

Personally, in many cases - whether it's a bike, a car, a house - I think modifications typically do not add much if any monetary value.  They do however have the potential to make one item more attractive to a point that it will sell first, if the items are priced similarly.

One problem is finding someone who wants your modifications.  If you chopped the tail and added high mount exhaust, really low clip-ons and higher rearsets that the perspective does not want because that customer plans on doing long distance touring in the rain, well, now, for that customer, the bike has little or no value.  On the other hand, if your modifications may indeed add value if the prospective customer loves what you have done to the bike.  Since modifications personalise the bike and we all have different taste this can take a long time.

Another issue is why were the mods done?  The result of crash damage?  Aggressive, abusive riding?  Does the bike have the same reliability?  How good is the quality of the work?

Then we have the issue of horse trading mentality and equity.  Most people compare your price to a standard like Kelley Blue book and want to pay less.  No matter how much time and money you put in your bike, to a bank or an insurance company doesn't want to hear about it.  OK, in a case of loss insurance may reimburse for some accessories.

I kept all my stock parts for this reason as well as others. Others being a small crash, and you have replacement parts right at hand. )Learned this from windsurfing - always have an extra piece of equipment handy, cuz if breakage happens, and you are partless, you on the beach watching... :'( )

Reason two being the stock parts fetch so little $, kinda pointless to sell them; better to keep them (back to reason one).

Reason three is that I upgraded my 02 M750 to a 01S4 and all my aftermarket parts went directly onto the new (used) ride. Now the 750 is back to near stock and for sale. The S4 is tricked out and rocking with little thought. I ended up sellling off a few of the stock S4 parts (wheels, suspension, clip ons, triple, fenders, fairing and cowl + more) and recouped 1/2 the price I paid for the bike; nice!

The 750 Dark in its hayday w/ 34k miles on the clock...

(http://applewood.smugmug.com/photos/168767126_CsvWv-M.jpg)

The S4, almost bone stock, 5k on the clock, riding it back home (Pac NW) from SoCal...

(http://applewood.smugmug.com/photos/190131335_U3Y6P-M-1.jpg)

The S4, transformation completed (well, maybe not... [evil]  :-\ :P 8) )

(http://applewood.smugmug.com/photos/280832475_S9wcP-M.jpg)

The 750, back to stock, almost (left the lightened flywheel in and aftermarket clutch slave still on) five years of fun, riding and modding, was a great ride (not enough power  [evil])!

(http://applewood.smugmug.com/photos/294195320_C5pDs-M.jpg)

All in all, the plan worked great! Other then multitudes of $ spent over 5 years modding, I now have a 916 engine with 12k on it (7k more since I bought it last Sept.) and a "stock" 750 dark for sale, for $3500.00.

I think there are 2 things going on: the more customized a bike is, the narrower the market is for it; Ducati folks tend to be collectors of original pieces one they start getting older & priceyer
My experience with Gina was a bit of a nightmare, the buyer expected to get $15000 for the bike & was disapointed when he was only offered $10+. He already had another bike on order. Then the name calling started & he recruited anyone he could to put their 2 cents in whether they knew anything or not. It then went on Ebay again (after the main Speedzilla debate) and he asked me to keep quite about the Speedzilla thread, I told him that I would work with a new buyer but that they need to be aware of the thread. Next best offer was $7 something which he again turned down but sent me an email saying that if I sent him $5000, he would reverse himself & tell everyone that Gina & I were both wonderful. In the end, it went on sale with a $5000 reserve & was bought by a guy who (knowing I had not been allowed to bid) offered it to me as a trade for some other work. I now own her & use the bike for demo rides. The original owner of Gina also had a heavily modded Foggy monster that he claimed to have $34000 in, I heard it sold for $12000.
Sorry to rant, but the point is that I no longer get inqueries from far away. The south east has pretty much been the market ever since because people need to see, touch, and ride a custom bike unless they've read nothing but praise for many years.
I think Stuart will sell his bike, but it may take a buyer local to him. I think failures to sell on Ebay only put doubts in people's minds.
I didn't know you stopped making bikes Mark, what are you up to these days?

When looking for the Monster, I only wanted one that is stock. I just bought my 2007 Monster S2R 800 for $7500. Guy bought it in Oct., and couldn't ride it. Poor guy, good guy though. But the bike is under warranty until 10/09. I think having a bike that is modified, it takes away from the whole "my bike" idea. If someone else picked out the tail chop, or the mirrors, or blinkers, or exhaust it isn't really my bike. Plus stock ones are presumed to be more reliable since they are riding on factory settings (IMO), and not some oddball fuel/air mixture. I posted pictures in my intro, so not gonna waste space here. But I'd rather buy stock than all modded any day.
cg

I bought a very heavily modified bike and I have to say that I wouldn't go any other way.  Pretty much with all the components on my bike I got a free motorcycle, hell with the suspension and brakes alone I got a free bike. 

I lucked out, seriously.  [thumbsup]

(http://b2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00968/26/56/968466562_l.jpg)

The bike has an STM slipper clutch, lightened fly-wheel, full floating Brembo's, full Ohlins front and rear, Marchesini magnesium wheels, steering damper and that's just for upgraded riding, that's not even mentioning the "pretty" parts.

I scored on my bike!  [thumbsup]

T

A. If I had to guess, I would say that the only MONSTER that may ever be worth much more than was originally paid for will be a 900 carby in near-stock form.

B. Not really. I have seen some ASKING prices that made me say WTF?

C. I have one of the more radical bikes I have seen on this board. I have always given or thrown away the old parts. While I have my share of bolt-ons (I'm sure I could have bought a new S4R for what I have in my 620), my bike has been victimized beyond any hope of return to normalcy, and I would not even attempt to sell it. I get curious spectators wherever I go, but must 'ducatisti' take one glance and look away quickly, as tho they had witnessed a particularly gruesome car wreck, ha-ha!

WOW - those are some really nice mods. BTW, riding in jeans isn't very safe..........you should be wearing a skirt.

Personally for me, heavy mods subtract value instead of add.  This goes for bikes and autos.

I agree with the poster above, Ducati does a pretty good job, and has a lot more resources than any DIY'r, so it is hard to improve unless it is cosmetic.

mitt

For the record, stock bikes are built to a minimum standard and also have to comply with all the appropriate government rules. A well done modified (or custom built) bike is faster, safer, more fun, and more reliable.

We can agree to disagree.  Show me a custom that will beat a Desmosedici, have a 2 year warranty, and pass emissions tests.

For that matter, even a 1098R with a warranty and emissions.  The Factory has more engineering, more research, more testing, more everything but craftsmanship than a builder.

mitt

It's worth converting a "bolt-on" modified bike back to stock before you sell it, I did that with my 900.  Not only do the majority of buyers want a stock bike so that they can make the bike "theirs" but they also tend to think of a heavily modified bike as more likely to be beat on or abused.  I'm not saying that particular assumption has any validity, but that's the mindset I believe.  And you'll have no problem selling off parts on ebay.

Not sure what the Black Fog would go for, but things would really have to take a turn for the worse for me to get to that point.  People have asked how much is it worth or how much would I sell it for, but it's not goin anywhere!  It's value to me has nothing to do with the monetary value.

See what you started Mark!! ???
I had a local dealer who used to ask me to give him stock parts I took off bikes. He removed & sold the modded parts on used bikes, replaced them with stock parts & told people the bike was just used by a little old lady to run over ants in the driveway (my expression for B/S). After a little bit, I stopped giving him parts & either gave them away or threw them away.
Now....... it sound like we have a challenge from Mitt. I don't care about emissions stuff & any high HP faired bike will out run any of mine in a straight line, but if you're talking about twisty backroads, we'll meet you anywhere between Asheville & deal's gap.......bring your wallet, we don't accept checks.

I don't think Flight (or Mark Savory for that matter) would be lumped in with your issue. I think Stuart can sell his bikes sight unseen (meaning just with photos) still. He hasn't suffered the bad press that you have and I don't expect he ever will.

ebay is ebay, it's just a matter of listing on the right day at the right price. An unsuccessful auction doesn't mean much. I've sold two bikes through eBay, both ended with no bids and resulted with cash in hand less then a week later.

Well, this is the internet & anyone can be slandered with a keystroke, I don't know anyone who is immune to it. You can sue, and win, but what do you actually win? And I find that one complaint is worth about 10 praises. I've found in my business that a smaller core of people makes for a happier atmosphere & I suspect Stuart & Mark will agree. My son (who owns the business now) wants to expand production but I'm trying to caution him to go slowly.
Anyway, this thread isn't supposed to be about how wonderful or terrible I am, or anybody else, it's about Stuart's bike for sale. We can all guess, but Stuart will just have to let us know over the passage of time.

This thread isn't about Stuart's bike being for sale, it's about the market for stock, modified, and custom bikes. I also wasn't saying you were wonderful or terrible. Just pointing out that your problems with nutjob phil are not anyone else's problem, thus they may not experiance the problems with their business that you have with yours.

As far as the thread goes. If I buy a stock bike I mod it to clean it up and to do sublte changes that make the bike perform better. If I was ever to go custom it would be with a massaged motor and monster chassis. I'm not a fan of any of the "custom" one off's that I've seen so far.

You're right, fair enough.

The bob-job just sold to a local bloke for more $ than the Ebay auction started for.

I'm very happy.....as this bike needs to close to the guy who built it as there's just too much custom stuff for a regular bike shop to really know or want to know anything about it.

Another happy customer!  [moto]  [thumbsup]

for me personally i like to buy a close to stock bike, however there are exceptions.

if the mods are bolt on ones that i would have done anyway but are there already then of course i would buy the bike.  if they are ones that i don't really like then they add no value.

now if the bike has mods on it that i want then maybe i'll pay a little more than normal but you are not getting all your money back by any means, ie, slips ons that cost 1500 will only add around 300-400 if that to a stock used bike price, you aren't going to get 1500 extra out of me, no way, but i think everyone agrees iwth that.

the only mods that i think take value away from teh bike, are ones that you can't reverse, ie, a tail chop. 

i know many people like this mod but personally i would never buy a bike with a simple tail chop as its cutting the frame. so this in my book takes away from the bike.

now custom bikes are completely different stories, ie the stu's bobber that is no longer "just a regular monster" so to speak so the rules about mods no longer applies for me.

Whenever I've sold a bike that I've modded I've also included the original parts. The mods don't often really raise the value of the bike, but they do make the asking price non-negotiable (just a more solid footing to stand on). But that's not the reason to mod a bike. I do it for fun and to make it mine.

When buying a bike, I will pay more for the right mods on a bike, but don't want a ton of mods done already. Most of the fun is in doing it myself.

I bought my bike modded exactly how I would have done it.  Saved at least $4K.

Seems to me that both Norms and Stews experience shows that eBay isn't the right way to sell a seriously custom bike. eBay is mostly all about a quick buck for the seller and an impulse buy for the buyer.

I'd love to own both Gina _and_ the Bobber, but that's as much because I "know" the guys who built them as it is about the bikes themselves.

If somebody showed me anonymous pictures of a bike like a DesmoDevil, my first thoughs would be "nice, but who built it?" Without knowing it was a MotoCreations bike I'd have a head full of questions and suspicions. When I read about the Gina dramas though, I think "some musician gets freaked 'cause some Ducati dealership mechanic says it's 'unsafe', but Norm who's been building and riding customs like her for quite some time lets his son wail up and down Blue Ridge Parkway on her, I think _I_ can decide who's opinion of her 'safety' I'm gonna believe"...

I think it's all about reputation - I can buy a blinged out Monster from pretty much anybody, 'cause I can trust the reputations of Ducati and Rizoma and Termigoni and CycleCat and Ohlins and Marchesini... A bike like that is never worth the sum of it's parts, but at least the value of the individual parts is pretty well known. A bike like Gina or the Bobber or a DesmoDevil though, I can't rely on it's Ducati heritage to tell me all that much about it. I can though rely on Norms history here and on TOB and on the actual mailing list before that, and form my own opinion on Norms reputation. Same with Stew and Mark - I'd buy a bike off you guys in a moment given a chance. I'll bet a lot of the custom Harley crowd feel the same way about "brands" like Orange County Choppers - their bikes are "worth" more than other custom Harleys 'cause of the reputation of the builders. (deserved or not...)

Maybe we need to pitch a prime-time TV show based on the DMF custom bike builders - see what happens to the prices of some of these machines when _that_ starts rating!  [laugh]

big

I keep all my original parts that I remove and I generally will only add slipons and maybe a windshield or other minor mod. On my ST2, I did add a lower windshield and Helibar adaptors with clip-ons, but the OEM windshield and bars are put away. I also installed master cylinders with remote reservoirs, but I still have the original coffin-style ones. I recently bought another ST2 and I'm selling almost all of the touring-related mods that were on the bike. Fortunately, to save me even more money, he gave me the original windshield and seat.

I also will normally walk away from a vehicle that has had engine mods or has been repainted. A repaint tells me its probably been wrecked, and engine mods scare me because I have no idea which idiot with a wrench *thought* they knew how to work on it.

From what I've seen mods generally add almost nothing to the value of the vehicle unless you are fortunate to find someone who wanted those exact mods and looked at it as saving them some money and installation costs. Also, generally speaking, the older the vehicle, the more it is worth as the closer to original it is.

Once I get my TV show, I'll be too good to hang around here anymore!! ;D
I met a guy in Maryland who has 2 OCC bikes, one was $80,000 and the other $130,000. They were both nice bikes, but nothing really special except the paint (and motor on the 130K one). He doesn' ride them, he tows them to m/c rallys & then enters them in shows so he can "win" trophys for bikes he didn't design or make. If I ever make a bike that is designed to be "show only" please shoot me!! !! ???

Will do. Here, wear this old Rodney Dangerfield sweatshirt with a bullseye on the back. Everyone needs some target practice. [laugh] [popcorn]

Appears there is no bottom value on what some of the TOB/ex-Monster of the Month feature bikes are worth:

Frame, bodywork and other parts for $1000/obo (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2720.0)

Is that a 2 into 1 exhaust? If so, that is exactly the same exhaust that I have, which I've been trying to track down. . . the can is the same, though mine doesn't have the Arrow sticker, and the header I can see is the same as well. . .

Great points, I am actually impressed with myself for being a noob and knowing what most of that stuff was.

Coming from the modified car scene you will never get your money back from modifications you do to anything. I have been into classic Mopar muscle cars for some time now. An original 70 cuda will bring a ton more money than a modified one. Same can be said for slightly newer cars. Take for example an 87 Buick Grand National, for those who dont know, its a car that has a real big fan following and intrest group. You can sell one that is all original way better than one that is modified and running 11 sec 1/4mile times. I think it is because people see an original bike as un-abused. The S4R I bought a few weeks ago is almost bone stock. I know that no one has been messing with it. A little piece of mine.   Just my 2 cents.

I was thinking the same thing about cars myself--I've seen countless ads that say something like "pristine custom hot rod, $40k invested, sacrifice for $20k."  I also read an article recently about a guy who bought a perfect ZR1 as an investment.  Eleven or so years later and he ended up losing money on the deal.  Vehicles are just a bad investment.

BTW, not long ago I saw a 999r with BST rims, engine work, etc. from Leslie at BCM for $18k. 

I'm of the opinon that people want their bike to be THEIR bike. Start from stock and mod as you get to know your bike and how you want it to be. Some mods for the performance aspect are best appreciated when you experience the stock form , then add some power mod and you notice that difference and it grows w/ you as you grow w/ your bike . Then you may add some more power mod and bam ...it really knocks your socks off and now it's like your bike is growing into a more athletic beast. The pretty bits are added to give your bike a more attractive appearance and that makes you feel better about you and your bike .

Sure you think that your bike should be worth all the love and adoration you have lavished upon it and it's an insult to think that the $ value hasn't kept pace w/ everything else.

I have a brand new S4Rs that I bought 2 weeks after the 1st one that I bought because I loved mine so much I wanted to make sure if anything happened to #1 I'd have a brand new one to take it's place. I've modded #1 and run it like I stole it and for all it's been through it still looks almost new.

I may have had it in the back of my mind that if push came to shove that I could sell #2 and get a good $ for it but that remains to be seen ...I hope it never comes to that.

I learned along time ago w/ sports cars that ordering the fancy wheels and sport packages and luxury groups, etc. never retuned but maybe 20% of the original cost when I sold the car versus a fairly standard equipped model. Even the Chromed out Harleys I used to ride w/ the $thousands  of extras  when I sold them they wouldn't bring much more than the stock ones.

So in summation , mod for yourself and enjoy it for the time it is yours ....but don't be bummed when others are not thrilled and pony up the BIG $$$ for your friend.