I spent some time searching but could not come up with an answer,
I've got my bike apart currently, diagnosing bits and pieces. While I'm aware that max power and RPM are limited by the long intake tracts, I'm not going to split singles on this Monster. I am, however, curious as to whether there are benefits to cleaning up the stock castings of the intake manifolds. They are pretty rough, and looks like they could benefit from a polishing.
Any thoughts, experiences, or links to information that I have missed?
I think Koko64 has done this. Wondering if others have, and if so, are there places that do the necessary polishing that I could send 'em to?
My understanding is while you want to match openings and remove obvious ridges polishing is not the best thing.
I thought that the roughness helped the fuel atomize, giving a more homogenous mixture, however I recall reading about having them polished and "swirled" which would accomplish the atomization while increasing flow.
Quote from: ato memphis on March 23, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
I thought that the roughness helped the fuel atomize, giving a more homogenous mixture, however I recall reading about having them polished and "swirled" which would accomplish the atomization while increasing flow.
Don't know about polished and swirled.
There is a phenomenon/physical property called laminar flow which affects atomization in the intake past the carb/throttle body.
Smooth surfaces actually hurt the process...
from my understanding
Ultimately as long as the 620/750/800/900 intake ports are under said manifolds, any work done is like tweezing short weeds in an overgrown field with 6 foot tall grass...
Fair enough. I had pulled them to inspect the gaskets underneath and replace - and was going to have the ceramic coater who is doing my headers do the intakes to match, thought I ought to see if there is much I can do while they are off before hand.
Good stuff. Thanks for the input nate & chris
I smoothened the 1mm threshold & shortened the screws that were too long.
Made it run a bit smoother but no big difference.
Why not do it to know you made all as optimized as possible,
even if it is a minor improvement?
Just my 2c.
I think I'll try to smooth out the huge casting seams and maybe call it a day. What threshold are you describing?
Quote from: ato memphis on March 23, 2010, 03:56:40 PM
I think I'll try to smooth out the huge casting seams and maybe call it a day. What threshold are you describing?
I believe he's referring to the diameter differences of the manifold and intake port.
If you clean up that 'step' or 'threshold' it can't hurt.
I'll certainly give that an eyeballing in the daylight. One of these days I'm going to send them there heads off for testarossa work. But I think I'd rather go with testa - nero - get some cool fancified black painted heads.
Quote from: ato memphis on March 23, 2010, 04:00:24 PM
I'll certainly give that an eyeballing in the daylight. One of these days I'm going to send them there heads off for testarossa work. But I think I'd rather go with testa - nero - get some cool fancified black painted heads.
Also check the rubber boot to manifold joint.
Not sure what I can do there - it seems to seat well around the manifold. Curious as to whether I should throw some liquid gasket in between during reassembly, before tightening down the clamps, to keep 'em as air-tight as possible.
Quote from: greenmonster on March 23, 2010, 03:33:03 PM
I smoothened the 1mm threshold & shortened the screws that were too long.
Made it run a bit smoother but no big difference.
+1 to a 750 I did ages ago. Same results.
On a M900 I had with FCR's (long manifolds) -- did a quick cleanup (5+hrs) of the intakes and rode the bike for awhile. No difference that I could tell.
Ceramic coated the (above) intakes and no other changes. I swear the on/off throttle response was better. I had someone comment the same who rode the bike. 36hrs between swap and same weather conditions.
I know a few dirt track racers here in the Northwest who ceramic coat the intakes of their sprint cars. One driver can tell the difference between them not knowing which ones are installed. (covered by a bodywork) He said he can tell by the on/off throttle response within 2 turns. He has seven manifolds and although almost all look identical, they all have slightly difference thottle responses. (thus he will swap depending upon track conditions) Guy is good -- wins on a regular basis.
Biggest difference I noticed is the intake manifolds don't get as hot as a non-ceramic version.
Quote from: ato memphis on March 23, 2010, 02:02:38 PM
I think Koko64 has done this. Wondering if others have, and if so, are there places that do the necessary polishing that I could send 'em to?
G'day AM
Cleaning up the rough casting lumps and ridges in the manifolds is good, as is removing other protusions like too long vacuum screws, but it is important to be mindful of the advice of Chris, GM and DP. A machined type finish and not a polished, mirror finish, and matching the ports is important. I couldn't stand the sloppy factory job on the manifolds, and the long screws protuding into the manifolds, bloody heresy!
I did my own under supervision of a performance tuner. It's optimising things in a 'blue printing' kind of way and is just another small contribution to the overall effect of all your engine mods. I had a very good porting job that those manifolds ran into. The stock ports are the biggest impediment as they are of a similar quality to the manifolds. That and the standard compression, stock valve area, oh yeah and the stock carbs...I better stop.
I know a guy who literally
polished the ports and combustion chambers of his race bike. It wouldn't run properly untill he got emery paper and roughed it all up!
Quote from: ato memphis on March 23, 2010, 04:00:24 PM
I'll certainly give that an eyeballing in the daylight. One of these days I'm going to send them there heads off for testarossa work. But I think I'd rather go with testa - nero - get some cool fancified black painted heads.
Cheaper to get a 1000 engine; it starts off with great intake ports. Same power as a full build for 1/2 the price. And then you've got all the tricks remaining to do to the 1000 ...
Quote from: MotoCreations on March 23, 2010, 07:14:06 PM
Biggest difference I noticed is the intake manifolds don't get as hot as a non-ceramic version.
I was thinking this would be a benefit I'd see as well - the ceramic coated manifolds wouldn't allow as much ambient engine heat to affect the mixture as it went into the motor - thus being "relatively" denser and cooler than an uncoated manifolds mixture - although the effects would be relatively small and gradually increase as the engine's radiant heat increased.
Quote from: chris on March 23, 2010, 11:47:51 PM
Cheaper to get a 1000 engine; it starts off with great intake ports. Same power as a full build for 1/2 the price. And then you've got all the tricks remaining to do to the 1000 ...
I do planning on grabbing an 1000 or 1100 motor, but I'm not letting go of this beast. Kind of a tune it as well as I can before moving on to the next plan. Not really trying to be stubborn, mind you, but this is just a part of the hobby aspect for me with this bike (call it a "look what i can do" bike, and by "what i can do", i really mean "what i thought was a good idea to pay someone to do for me who is skilled in the art") [laugh]
Ato, what is the "1mm threshold"?
I'll snap some pics this afternoon when I get a break from the books - see if I understand it correctly
Thanks!
Ok, there is certainly a bit of a lump, or reduction, that is abrupt about 1cm before the manifold becomes 'flange'. The inside of this 1cm (or less) ridge is a nice smooth machined finish, but where it drops off for the 'pipe' section of the manifold - the rough section, there's a rough transition.
Not really worth taking a picture, but I may take the time to smooth that transition down a bit.
On the calipers, the manifold's flange face opening is the same diameter as the intake on the head.
Quote from: chris on March 23, 2010, 11:47:51 PM
Cheaper to get a 1000 engine; it starts off with great intake ports. Same power as a full build for 1/2 the price. And then you've got all the tricks remaining to do to the 1000 ...
Looking at Brads dyno charts, my bike (with all that is done to it) goes about as well as a dead stock 1000DS with pipes and and tune...
Here I sit drooling at the prospect of 1000DS motors at the price you guys can buy them.[bang] Even if you could find seperate DS motors here, it would be almost cheaper to do a local MBP job on your heads, if you could find someone to do it. Maybe in a few years time the prices may come down, or not. You would want to get a DS motor and hot it up to be worth the trouble,I reckon. But if you love her you'll spoil her rotten!
There is something to be said for not over capitalizing in a street bike, when you can buy a track bike and go nuts without going to jail [evil]. We are heavily policed down here.
I can do no more to my Monster unless I want to reconfigure the heads with ST2 cams, big valves, short manifolds and raised ports. Go the whole shebang. Geez, it wheelies in second as it is!
as a large mammal, while I can wheelie, its not really very big unless you are in first. second is a smaller wheelie. third is no wheel at all. the end of summer holds FCR carbs in store for me. I just have to get to there.
QuoteWhat threshold are you describing?
QuoteOk, there is certainly a bit of a lump, or reduction, that is abrupt about 1cm before the manifold becomes 'flange'. The inside of this 1cm (or less) ridge is a nice smooth machined finish, but where it drops off for the 'pipe' section of the manifold - the rough section, there's a rough transition.
That`s what I mean, sometimes my English limits me when it comes to specific technical
terms.
No big deal, I certainly figured it out!