Ducati Monster Forum

This thing actually has a shot at passing. It would essentially make lane splitting legal in Maricopa county starting Dec. 31 2010. 

http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=2475&image.x=0&image.y=0 (http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Bill_Number=2475&image.x=0&image.y=0)

I've been watching that....I wonder who's backing/lobbying for it? What kind of public awareness they're planning, if any. Without some organized counter information, the thing will blow up if the press starts talking to the GAAMs about it. Personally, I'm ready to no longer have to contribute to the congestion nor have to worry about getting rear ended any more.

I think it's a good idea and a bad one all at the same time. As often and severe as motorcycle accidents already are in Phoenix, I wonder how much they'd increase because of something like this.

On the flip side -  I'd much rather not get stuck in traffic in 120 degree heat when I could just cut right through it.

I don't think I could do it. My mirrors stick out too much.

Maybe if you rode side saddle?   [thumbsup]

Well we have three examples we can look at:

• Most of the Industrialized Nations of the world, as well as Texas
  In these places lane splitting, is done within tight rules that generally state you must be within 5mph of the flow of traffic and you must merge into the flow when the flow of traffic is above 30mph (varies from place to place, metric system conversions are nearly the same)
• California which dosen't "allow" lane splitting, they simply don't have a law prohibiting it and choose to allow it. But most California cops will give you a hard time if you are splitting like an idiot. There a number of other states that also don't have laws against lane splitting, but use other laws to ensnare riders who lane split.
• Arizona's Proposed rule says that traffic must be stopped, but doesn't say how fast the bike must be going through the stopped traffic.

When done smartly and by Texas, or European, Australian, Japanese rules, is perfectly safe and a fine idea that is usually implemented with rider safety as it's primary goal. Rear-end collisions when traffic slows is the number one accident in the world. 99% of the time, nobody gets hurt in a rear-end fender bender involving two cars. When it's a motorbike that gets rear-ended, there's little chance that the rider will not get injured. Allowing the rider to get out of the line of such common collisions is smart and proper. The benefit of easing congestion and the even bigger benefit to the rider of not having to wait in heavy traffic are just icing on the cake, but don't forget that the cake is rider safety.

Yea yea...we keep hearing the panicked bleating of the GAAM, "What happens when some driver flings his door open?" or "What about some driver suddenly changing lanes in front of the bike that's passing between lanes?" I've been hearing these two arguments for years. Where lane splitting is done right, there are so few cases of problems that endanger riders as to not be worth mention. Who flings their door open while sitting in a long line at a red light? Cars that are stuck side-by-side in traffic aren't changing lanes.

Read. The internet is full of good information on this topic.

Thanks

I successfully lane split in California for many years (Oakland/SF).
It's terribly handy in rush-hour traffic and at stop lights.
At a stop you filter up front - the cars are already stopped so less chance of getting rear ended.

When I lived in Chicago I lane split for a couplea years. Totally illegal, but I'm impatient.  [evil]
A job I worked was up north. This particular highway had all the jerks.
(I never had this problem on other highways in Chicago-land)
I'd lane split on the way home through the stop-go traffic.
(completely stopped for periods of time. It was an awful commute.)
In the six months I was working there, I had at least four cars open their doors on me.
I had a semi try to run me off the road. Really. Out of it's way to try to squish me. That was fun.
If I hadn't been filtering slowly and carefully, I would have gotten injured by one of those doors
(as it was, they just got an ear full. So did the semi driver. Grr.).

Like all riding, you just gotta be extra aware of your surroundings.
And unlike my Chicago experience, I never had a driver open a car door on me in Oakland, SF, Vancouver B.C., or Austin Tx.

Like anything new, it'll take a little while for cars to get used to it.
It'll take bikes time to get used to it.
After a while, it'll just be the norm.

Just your mirrors?

Who was that dumb azz DJ in CA who told his listeners to open up their car doors on motorcyclists splitting traffic? 

Why is it such a race to every stoplight..especially here in PHX?! 

I see people speed up to the spot where oncoming traffic is going to merge only to cut off the merging car.  Why?

American cagers, in general..are just azzholes.   
 [roll]

I don't know. It is really awful.

I don't think those people really understand what kind of damage could ensue from opening their door on a motorcyclist. One car that did it to me was four young (college-age) guys. When I stopped my bike and started in on them, they were surprised that I was female. I asked them (loudly) if they understood that by having their little fun and opening the door on me could have killed me. Did they really want to seriously damage another human just because that person was getting ahead of them in traffic? They just shrugged their shoulders.
 [bang]

And back to our regularly scheduled program...  ;D
What's the process with that Bill?

I did it for years in SF without incident.  Just a matter of getting drivers used to the idea.  I would often split on the freeway in slow traffic as well.  Just gotta keep the situational awarness dial tured up to 10.  I know I pay more attention, can stop harder and accelerate faster than 99.99% of cages.  So I say bring on the lane-splitting.  I don't ride motorcycles because of of their reputation as safe transportation anyway. [moto]  

When we passed through LA on our Monsters I found lane splitting to be.....useful  [evil]



However, when we stopped Maureen said to me "you know honey, you don't need to lane split when traffic is already moving at the speed limit"  [laugh]


Awe shucks - she probably saved me from my own over-excitement, but MAN that was fun!

Uh huh.. A lot of fun!  Dangerous? Yes, but..as previously mentioned..that's what we do!  [evil]

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/30march10_lanesplitting.htm (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/30march10_lanesplitting.htm)


More news, sort of.

Yay! I love the picture of French bikers..

<mini rant>
While I'm glad progress is being made with this bill, I find it a bit ridiculous that it's only valid for one year. One year is barely enough time for the general driving population to get comfortable to this. Yeah, it'll be more common, but I don't think that's long enough for lane splitting to become considered the norm.
</mini rant>

Here's a video of the French protest.

I can't believe how many motorcycles there are.  :o

Manifestation FFMC Paris 13/03/2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTi5PyWeraA#normal)

I love the style of those two French protests: "You want it, you got it!" Killed the freeway, killed the subway.  [clap]

The French know how to protest because they protest just about every few months. It really doesn't get them very much, but it does certainly impact daily life.

I think it's become a part of their lives, which may be why the government doesn't crack down too harshly on them.

Actually, it did get them "very much" :
"A happy outcome: Belotti has met with the FFMC and is re-considering the restrictions on lane-splitting."

Perhaps Belotti will still have the ban, but obviously the protests had a huge impact within the Transport Ministry.

(from the article Pennyrobber posted: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/30march10_lanesplitting.htm (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/30march10_lanesplitting.htm) )

Uh huh ^

I had to cut my trip to the Cote de Azur a day early to catch a train to Bologna ASAP!  It was rumored the next morning the French were going on strike and they did.  Luckily, had the inside scoop or wouldn't have made the Duc ride.   

Finally! This thing is moving again. It went into Senate Rules Committee today.  Hopefully it'll whisk on through now like it did in the House.

I'm a bit mixed on this being a good idea or not - for all the obvious reasons. I'd really like to see this happen, but at the same time the risk to us as riders of being in an accident will increase exponentially.

I just hate to see us put into a higher risk category for accidents for a convenience. On the flip side, when it's 120 degrees outside, I'll be equally happy that I don't have to sit and roast while traffic is stopped.

Not sure exactly what your "obvious reasons" are or what research supports your statement that "being in an accident will increase exponentially"

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's definition of Lane Splitting, it "may provide a safety benefit".
( http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/glossary71-72.html (http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/glossary71-72.html) )

The NHSTA also says, based on the famous Hurt Report, that lane splitting "slightly reduces" rear-end accidents, and is worthy of further study due to the possible congestion reduction benefits.

Some further reading -and yes, it's Wikipedia - which some folks don't like as reference material... however, this article is well cited, so might be of use/interest to follow the links and read more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting)

I lane split for years in the Bay Area and never once had a problem. It is convenient and safe.
Many countries around the world have legal lane splitting. Works for them. 

See, there in lies the problem -- a lot of people assume it's dangerous, when in fact it's actually safer.

The general perception of lane splitting is what will make it hard for it to come into law and be accepted by the public.

My comment wasn't based on "research" or references from Wiki but rather inference based on observed driving habits of automobile drivers in Phoenix. Given your point of view Hoyden, it sounds as though you're coming from a perspective and place where lane splitting has been established for quite some time - established as a norm for both motorcyclists and motorists.

Were lane splitting to be made lawful in Arizona, and if you think about the time required for the "trickle down effect" to take place effectively, I would submit that we'd be looking at the better part of 5 years before motorists and motorcyclists would develop the proper driving habits to safely accommodate lane splitting to the point where you can say that it is a safe practice.

Thus, taking into account the aggressive nature of Phoenix drivers, and factoring in the "new thrill" of lane splitting for motorcyclists, is it not reasonable to infer that accidents will generally increase over the estimated next 5 years until drivers have acclimated to the new law and required skill set for the safe accommodation of motorcyclists that lane split that also offers at the very least a minimal margin for acceptable error?

 

Lane splitting in the European nations in which I have experience, and specifically in Germany, where I hold a driver's license, is implemented primarily for rider safety. NHTSA is incorrect in stating that there is a "slight" reduction in likelihood of a rear-end collision, there is a major reduction in the likelihood of being rear-ended. That is why I lane split in AZ now when I'm riding alone or with a my friends that are of the same mind. I, personally, refuse to be put at that risk no matter what our traffic regulations state.

I know three people who have been rear-ended on bikes, the most recent was my dad about five years ago. Two received injuries to the lower back, another got both his knees smashed when the bike was canted sideways and into the car in front of him, by the impact, making his knees the all-beef patties in a car/bike/car Big Mac. After living in Germany for a while, I'd already been irritated that it was illegal for me to take the appropriate action to get out of that "hit zone", and when my father, the 35 year veteran cop, got hit, that was the last straw for me....and him....he lane splits now too...both of us have been stopped for it, but neither of us have gotten a ticket. We're of the mindset that a ticket would just be the cost of business for tending to our own safety.

I get the impression, Dave, that you're picturing flying through 70mph traffic at 85mph, or whipping 50mph through stopped traffic. Read the bill that is linked in the OP of this thread. What the bill is asking for is what I already do, slowly and carefully filtering through stopped traffic, and merging back in as soon as traffic is moving.

Dave,

Fear is a terrible place from which to make decisions.

"Aggressive nature of Phoenix drivers"? Since I moved here I've heard people whine about how awful Phoenix drivers are. Usually from people who have little to no experience driving elsewhere.
Have you ever ridden in Chicago? Narrow, congested streets. Did I mention "narrow"? Riding here is heaven compared to Chicago. Here, you have these wide boulevards with plenty of room to maneuver.  I rode for eight years in Chicago. And lane split there quite a bit (even though it's illegal. See MostroNero's comment above). Chicago's streets are not only narrow to claustrophobic, but riddled with double parked vehicles and lots of indignant attitudes. It's constant video game evasive maneuver driving there. Oh, did I mention the constant pot-hole dodging?

Yeah, it would take time for people here to get used to bikers lane splitting (see my short ranty post on this thread) but "getting used to" does not necessarily equal "more dangerous".

Again, your assumption of a "5 year" time-frame to "develop the proper driving habits" for lane splitting is based in no real proven anything. It sounds to me like you'd rather not have this law passed because of your fears that it would take a while for people to get used to it and your conclusion is that it would be more dangerous in the short term.

I'd wager, from no empirical data, that it would take a far shorter period of time for people to get used to the adjustment, that it wouldn't cause problems, and that it would prove to be a better solution in the long run.

Now hold on just a second here. Everything that has been discussed here has merit - and while I've not discounted the benefits of lane splitting while voicing the saftey concerns, I'm starting to feel backed into a corner for expressing my opinion.

WTF.

Hoyden - your responses read as arrogant, pompous, and judgmental. Get off my back and stop making flash judgement about me and assumptions about my experiences. Who do you think you are calling me both fearful and an inexperienced driver - you don't even know me.

...



...you know, forget it. I posted up this morning to share my opinion; not to waste my time arguing with a know-it-all.



It's no wonder the AZ section only has 5 people who post in it. You guys sure know how to create a hostile environment.


Have a nice day.

You know...when I first read Dave's 5-year adjustment statement, I passed over it thinking it sounded reasonable. The more I've thought about it, the less time I think it would take, but I have no idea. It's really more a matter of  car folk knowing that it's legal for the bike to be doing that. It could take anywhere from a week to....well...five years, I guess.  ;D

My grand prediction for Arizona and lane splitting is that no more than 25% of all riders will even practice it on a regular basis.

As far as the "receptiveness" of Phoenix automotorists to lane splitting, I've only had a few (less than five) cars try to scoot over in stopped traffic to close my path. Oddly enough two of those were meathead jacked up Dodge pickups with huge TapOut stickers and all the rest of that stereotype, and the others memory wants say were Camaro types...either way, I'm sure what I was dealing with was a control freak personality and those exist around the world in equal proportions; they're not over-represented in any one city....except maybe Washington D.C..  [roll]

hmmm.....I did not see that coming. I wasn't aware that was the direction this thread was going. I certainly hope I didn't present myself in such a manner, nor did I catch such a tone in hoyden's comments, but....that's how things too often go when we try to "discuss" on the internet. The tone with which one writes is often not the tone with which another reads and then the wheels come off the wagon of a friendly conversation.

Say la vee....tale e vita...

Jim

MostroNero brings up a good point, and thats the fact that that there are all types of personalities out there.  That affects how we all get along, and has a lot to do with how things go in traffic.  Sucks to see personality conflicts in traffic...and online.

Look - I'm sorry that what I said was so harsh - but I'm not sorry for saying it. But both of her responses were tossing so called facts and references in my face and telling me that I'm a fearful and inexperienced driver - she both judged and insulted me as well as made assumptions about my character....all of which was evoked from me first saying that I was on the fence about the issue, and that I didn't want to see us (riders) get hurt by being put into a dangerous situation.

WTF???


Quite frankly I was very insulted.

Wow Dave. Such vitriol.

A) So you dislike facts and references and would rather just everyone just spit out unsubstantiated opinions with nothing to back up their ideas? You make statements as fact and then get upset when someone refutes them with actual facts.
My "so-called facts" were from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the well-known, well-respected Hurt Report.

B) I never called you inexperienced. I asked if you had every driven in Chicago. I did infer that you might not have much experience riding in other cities than Phoenix (and in elsewhere in Az since you are presently in Tuscon) and I'm sorry if that was incorrect.

C) I said that it seemed that your opinions came from fear. Scared of people not learning a new thing quick enough. Scared that people won't learn "proper driving habits" before getting harmed. Scared of aggressive Phoenix drivers. Scared that lane splitting is dangerous. Scared that we're putting ourselves in 'dangerous situations'.

D) You asked me a direct question and then got mad when I replied with an answer you didn't like and that questioned your statements.

Seems to me that being given some actual facts on lane splitting would help alleviate some of your concerns.
Instead you rebuff research and fact and resort to name calling.

Look, as I read your comments you came across pompous, arrogant, and like I said, a "know-it-all". If you didn't mean that then fine, lets just move on - I'm done debating this otherwise pointless topic.

I'm generally a really nice guy - easy to get along with, and I don't pick fights. So think about that when considering why I reacted so negatively - that's uncharacteristic of me to be sure.

And Arizona is uncommonly mixed in that most people who live here grew up somewhere else. And then when you throw in the snowbirds -- forget it.

So when you have a new traffic law (bringing us back to the topic) I could see how it will take some time for the general public of Arizona to get used to the idea.

I imagine, however, that there will be some people who just refuse to accept it or refuse to change their way of thinking. Or, like I experienced recently, there are some who are so old and clueless that they'll be driving on the wrong side of the road right towards you. 

Either way, regardless of the statistics and studies on lane splitting, I hope no one gets hurt and it does nothing but add a safety layer to us careful riders.

 [moto]

 [beer]

La la la laaaaaane splitin' ...  [moto]

No...  There are only 2 types.  Those who agree with my point of view and assholes.

 ;D

(http://images2.layoutsparks.com/1/205697/pop-tarts-jelly-gum.jpg) Anyone?

It PASSED and is on it's way to the Governor's Office.... [thumbsup]  [beer]

Awesome. She'll sign anything.  ;D

HA! Zing!

 [laugh] Of course, isn't she coming up for re-election?

YES!!  OK..so how long before a bill becomes a law?!   [cheeky]

Schoolhouse Rock- How a Bill Becomes a Law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)

I want to say the bill stated the start date was the beginning of 2011.

I think we'll need a few months for practice.  Just to let the cagers get used to this too.   ;)

IZ! That's one of my favorites!

Mr.Robber, I thought it started Dec 2010 and ended Dec 2011?
I'll have to go check it out again. (one year is so not enough time. so short sighted....)
Hope she signs it!

you guys think it will trickle down to Tucson too? (legally or illegally just overlooked)

Not sure if I'm reading your question correctly, but hopefully this will answer for you:
It's a state-wide bill. So happy lane-splitting to you!  [moto]

(here's a summary linked from Charles' original post: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2475h.htm (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/hb2475h.htm)  )

Oh, i Thought it was just maricopa county. Yes that clears it up for me

It's a state wide bill, but it only applies to counties with >2,000,000 people.

So, not Tuscon, then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscon,_AZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscon,_AZ)
That's lame.

Which brings me back to....you think  [leo] will turn a blind eye down in Tucson?

Anyone know if this bill was passed?

Don't know if it's truly legal yet but I have seen several, at least one every other day, using the strip next to the HOV lanes on the 10. The afternoon rush hour traffic moves around 10-15 mph near the airport to the Broadway/60. Riders are seen just rolling thru.  Haven't seen a bike stopped either and there's a ton of lawmen around at that time.

I put in a quick call to the Phoenix PD asking about the status of the 'law' and before I even finished asking the officer on the phone immediately cut me off and told me that "it will never be a law in Arizona because it's too dangerous" - now that doesn't sound like an educated answer, but that's what I was able to find out.  :-\

 :( :( :(

Nuts to them.

You should try calling your local, state legislator. They would know.

.... I'm out of town or I'd do it myself.  [coffee]

Personally I don't have the huevos to  lane split here in the valley. It's hard enough getting around in my truck while going with the flow and staying in my lane [thumbsdown] and now with the snowbirds in town.. [bang]......

AZDuc

being a native cali kid i have lane split most of my riding life and actually feel safer not sitting between stopped cars in traffic. i also don't split at 500000000000 miles an hour either.  a bike sitting between cars has a really good chance of not being seen by an over zealous cager who only uses their mirror when changing lanes.  also an air cooled bike no likey sitting there not moving in 100000000 degree heat...but you guys knew that last part  ;D

True on all points. I was pretty disgruntled with the manner in which the Phoenix PD responded to my inquiry. Even with his response being what it was, I didn't feel like it was an educated response and didn't give me any idea where the bill actually stands.

I wonder who we'd have to ask in order to get more information??

Passed House and Senate.  Vetoed by Governor:

http://www.azleg.gov/govlettr/49leg/2R/HB2475.pdf (http://www.azleg.gov/govlettr/49leg/2R/HB2475.pdf)

Thanks Dave. Well can anyone say that we're suprised to see the bill die? I love how she sights that although California permits it, that the state consideres it "unsafe"....

...for that matter walking to the bathroom in the dark is unsafe, but not illegal....

Oh well. I suppose until the next time it comes up that we'll all have to suffer in the summer heat that much longer during rush hour.