Ducati Monster Forum

I'm getting more involved in our national DOC club, organizing group rides [moto]

We're trying to compose a simple set of rules.

Anyone have suggestions or links for me?  [thumbsup]

PM Spidey.

I remember him posting a set on TOB. From memory it was very comprehensive..

David Hough in his book Proficient Motorcycling provides some pretty good info on group rides, both for the members of the group and the "Ride Captain."

Here's a good place to start: http://www.msgroup.org/Articles.aspx?Cat=11 (http://www.msgroup.org/Articles.aspx?Cat=11)

I don't necessarily agree with everything, but there are many good details there.


The second post in the following thread contains my own set of rules for rides that I've lead.  It is far from complete: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241286 (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241286)

I have PM'ed Spidey - he'll be sending over the things he's got.
David Hough's book will be looked into.
I've copied your post Scott, and read through most of the other linked articles.

Thanks for your help [thumbsup]

I hope you'll post the set of rules that you come up with.  If they're good enough, I might start using them.

You realize they'll be in Norwegian?  [cheeky]

(maybe I'll make a short version in English and post up)

Make sure all riders have insurance before they ride with you.  That would be my first rule.

My personal Rule 1 of group riding:  Dont.

My own experience has led me to believe that groups should be limited to no more than three riders.  Anything else is a cluster copulation.  If you have more than that, break it down to sub-groups.   I found the rule also applied to cars when I was a member of the SoCal Miata CLub.

I prefer an upper limit of six with an absolute upper limit of eight.  You need the one at the end to understand that they're in the "sweep" position.

If you keep proper group spacing of at least two seconds between bikes in the twisties, allow no passing, and set a reasonable pace at the front, it can be done safely.  If there are stop signs or traffic signals involved, those at the back need to understand that the front group will wait at an appropriate spot ahead if those at the back get stuck at a light.

I PM'd you what I could find (which was a link to TOB).  I'm absolutely certain that I've written up something before, but just couldn't find it.  Which means this is probably as good a time as any to generate a revised set of rules (when I have a free moment). 

Show up early, with a full tank of gas.
If you have to leave early, tell someone.
If you get lost, stop.
Don't ever try to catch up.
Be realistic about your skill level and where you should ride in the group.  Fast people in front, slower people in the back.
Bring cash for lunch.
Have all your paperwork (license, registration, insurance, medical card)
Don't ride like a dick (no slingshotting, tailgating, etc etc)
Don't crash.

+1 and wear gear
I'm also a big fan of the Pace: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0)

This is what we came up with for our national DOC.
It's my short and poor translation, but you'll understand [roll]
Feel free to copy and paste  [thumbsup]

-------------

We wish to promote safe group rides. Our members will behave respectfully and including towards fellow members and others, on and by the roads we ride. Conscious safety for yourself and fellow group riders.

On time
Ready to go, on time and with a full tank.

Formation
In traffic and when riding slow we spread out in our lane, every second rider to the left and right.
On open roads we form a single line and increase distance between riders.
We do not pass other riders unless we are waved on by that rider.

Adjust your speed
If you need to use your whole lane - you might be riding faster than you should and will spend your safety margins in advance. Some riders do this on a regular basis on their own and are willing to take that risk, but on group rides this risk is transferred onto other riders and that's unnecessary.

Passing cars
We pass cars in the order we ride. Be patient and let he rider in front of you pass in his/her own pace.
After passing you will position your bike to the right and well ahead of the passed car - thus leaving room for the next passing rider.

Intersections and road dividers
If we aren't all together, we will wait for the next rider to make sure there's no misunderstandings about which direction to follow. If alone and in doubt, wait for the sweep captain.

Divided by traffic
Riders in front will slow down or stop.

Wish for a calmer pace?
If you discover that the pace is higher than you feel safe at, wave other riders on and join the sweep captain at your pace. At the next stop, you're welcome to ask the sweep captain for riding advice.

----------------------- 

I like the list. I am curious about the above bullet point though. What is meant by "using your whole lane"? Is this referring to just on the highway or to twisties as well?

It's mostly to avoid cutting corners in the twisties, from inside (gravel) to outside yellow line (oncoming cars). That's a required practice to go the fastest you can, but on public roads we might hit something that throws us off our line and then we have no safety margins. Check out the online article "The Pace" by Nick Ienatsch - that's where I got it.

On highways this is probably not an issue, as we usually don't go fast enough to need cutting corners there.

I think it's kind of awkwardly worded in your list then.

One of my rules for riding and for anyone who rides with me is "don't go outside of your lane", even on roads with no lines.  But we all still use the whole lane for the most part, specifically, entering the corner from the outside edge and finishing the turn at the inside edge.  That is what David L. Hough calls a delayed apex turn.  And I'm convinced that it's the safest way to ride twisties.

Your wording implies to me that I want to just stay in the left or right tire track the whole time (pick one).

Got it.

I don't think it's the safest way. It's a method to make sure you get through a turn with improved overview and it will allow you to go faster because you straighten out the turn.
 
I want to practice consciously staying in the middle of my lane, it's much like skiing between gates/poles - it will immediatelly tell you if your speed and skills are off - if you are too fast into a turn, you will find out without being thrown off your line/lane too far.

Both methods can be used in a smart way to learn riding better, but what I see is that there are always riders going too fast relying on good road conditions and enough room for mistakes - which isn't always going to be the case. Leaving some room for errors is a safety measure.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then.

I'm just finishing reading More Proficient Motorcycling by David L. Hough, for the third time, and he spends a whole chapter - Chapter 7 - explaining the safest way to get through a corner on the street.

The most important thing is that all of your braking is done before the corner begins, you enter the turn from the outside edge of the lane, and give it light throttle through the turn, gradually giving it more as the turn straightens out.  You hit the apex - the inside of the turn - as you complete the turn.  If it's an S-turn, you're already exactly where you want to be for the next corner.

It took me approximately a year to convert my old habits into delayed apexes all the time, and I've never found myself too hot into a corner since converting over.  On the rare occasion when I didn't quite brake enough for the turn, usually on downhill corners, there is still plenty of time to brake while in the turn to correct the miscalculation without going outside of the lane.

Delayed apex turns as taught by Hough, ARE leaving room for errors as a safety margin, in my opinion.

I agree on the late apex and inside of the turn, which allows for errors and give a better overview. But, when riders use the advantage of this method to go faster and need to exit on the outside edge of their lane - that's when things can get out of hand.

Sounds like we're in violent agreement then.  [beer]

What has a violin to do with all this [wine]

I've run 100s of group rides and currently run a twisty road ride which is AMA sanctioned and in its 17th year, TWiSTAR (http://hstatwistar.info). Last year 100+ did this ride. I regularly run rides where 10-30 people show up. The people who come on these rides typically break up into smaller groups of 3-8 riders.

On group rides I tell everyone to ride their own ride and as a ride organizer I see it as my responsibility to make it possible for everyone to ride their own ride.

To make it possible for everyone to ride their own ride, I provide a route sheet and sometimes a Garmin GPS file for the route. The route includes set gas/break stops and a lunch stop. Riders are told, if you don't know where you're going, then you can't ride your own ride and they are told if they can't follow a route sheet while riding the ride isn't appropriate for them. Route sheets also make it easy for riders to participate solo, or to form their own small groups.

Otherwise the ride rules I use are:

Arrive with a full tank of gas, properly dressed (helmet, gloves, jacket, boots), MC endorsement, properly running motorcycle and a way to follow the route while riding.

On the road, ride in a stagger formation on straights, and single file on turns, maintaining a 2+ second following gap to the rider ahead.

Let faster riders in the turns, pass on straights. It is incumbent on passing riders to pass safely.

While I typically wait for riders at every route change, and/or arrange for someone to ride sweep if the group I'm leading gets large, I don't ever say I'll do this on a group ride, before the ride. In my experience when people ask if the leader will wait for them at route changes or whether there will be a sweep rider, these questions are indicative that they will feel pressed to keep up or potentially fell like they are holding everyone up, or that they want someone else to be responsible for their ride. Over the years, I've had far too many people blame their crashes on me for leading at a pace too fast for them, or for not taking care of them on a ride, in other words, I had far too many people not take responsibility for their riding. I've found it better to emphasize upfront that everyone needs to be prepared and capable of taking responsibility for their own ride, before going on a group ride. Riders show up with the right attitude and there are allot fewer crashes.

FWIW...

Weird-I've asked the same question.....

.....and I was sweep on the ride.



IMO I need to know what the leader plans on doing, and if I was s rider in the group, it would make me actually take a map.

Oops should have been clearer.

I don't ever say I'll wait for riders at every route change or that there will be a sweep riders in the ride post or promo. I do let people know who show up for a ride if  I'll wait at every route change or if there will be a sweep rider at the ride start.

OTOH, I really do appreciate when people come prepared with a map. When I first started telling people they had to be capable of following a route sheet and had to have a way to follow the route when riding, a bunch of people still showed up without anyway to follow the route while riding. A bunch of pregnant doging at them, and now guys show up with rolls of masking tape so they can tape route sheets to their tanks if they don't have tank bags.

 [coffee]