Taking some thread jackage from the John Deere thread...
Whenever possible, and especially with the food for the kiddos, I buy organic. I am completely OK with the idea that the advertised benefits do not necessarily equal the actual benefits. I buy it because I like the idea of sustainable agriculture and husbandry, fewer or no pesticides, and because I love the tangy smell of patchouli. But, it is something I'll admit that I probably haven't spent enough time researching.
So, venerable contributors to the DMF, please inform me of the benefits of organic, both to me the consumer and farmers, land, environment etc. Or why you think it is flim-flam.
I don't know about vegetables...I do buy the organicc baby food though. The extra cost is minimal.
I buy hormone free milk, because cows shouldn't be pumped full of shit to produce milk.
Organic, or Natural, meats have more/better flavor in my experience, so I buy those when I can. Here that means I just go to the nice grocery store for my meats, as that is what they carry...and their meat is far superior in every aspect. I will also only buy ground beef that has been ground by the butcher at the store...not the mass produced crap that comes from the slaughterhouse.
Some people will bash it...whatever. I figure the less shit/chemicals you put in your body the better off you are. I purposely avoid products with ingredient list that I can't pronounce and/or that take up half of the box.
Local is always better as well.
I eat only hormone laden, irradiated, pesticide and MSG filled processed foods.
When they release the disease and pestilence from the labs, my body will be immune but you organic eating weenies will all die off quick.
Unlike motorcycles, a topic on which I actually have some relevant experience! Back when I worked on Capitol Hill, my boss offered the House-side amendment to the 1990 Farm Bill that became the Organic Foods Production Act -- those little green and white stickers that read "USDA Organic" represent a couple of years of my working life! (Senator Leahy of Vermont was chair of the Senate Ag committee and the author of the bill; I was in charge of negotiating similar language on the House side that could win in a floor fight over the objections of the leadership of the House Ag Committee.)
Seeing the word "natural" bludgeoned into meaninglessness by the mass market gave the farmers who'd spent 40 years developing organic practices a strong incentive to try to codify use of the word organic. Our big objective with the legislation was this: how do you ensure that the word "organic" in retail trade between strangers (as opposed to face-to-face, farmers market sales) really means something?
The basic thing to know about the organic standard in the U.S. is that it is a production standard, requiring farmers to use only certain practices on their farms and be verified as such by an independent, third-party certifier. While research is indicating some differences in the final product between organic & conventional products, that green and white label only guarantees that the food inside was produced in accordance with a particular set of standards. The USDA's description in their consumer literature is actually pretty good: What is organic food? Organic food is produced by farmers who emphasize the use of renewable resources and the conservation of soil and water to enhance environmental quality for future generations. Organic meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy products come from animals that are given no antibiotics or growth hormones. Organic food is produced without using most conventional pesticides; fertilizers made with synthetic ingredients or sewage sludge; bioengineering; or ionizing radiation. Before a product can be labeled ‘organic,’ a Government-approved certifier inspects the farm where the food is grown to make sure the farmer is following all the rules necessary to meet USDA organic standards. Companies that handle or process organic food before it gets to your local supermarket or restaurant must be certified, too.
Note that organic farmers still use pesticides & fertilizers -- they're just restricted to a list of approved, non-synthetic substances (some natural substances - arsenic is the one I remember - are also explicitly forbidden by the organic standard). Just as important, the standards push farmers toward sustainable practices instead of sprays or other products; for example, tillage instead of herbicides, cover crops, integrated animal/plant systems & rotations instead of synthetic fertilizers, and all kinds of wild things (mesh row covers, co-cropping, beneficial insects/birds/etc.) instead of synthetic insecticides.
If your biggest concern is chemical residues in the food you're eating, yeah, organic is PROBABLY lower, but there aren't any guarantees of that, mainly because pesticide residues in U.S. food are generally pretty low to begin with (in our rivers & surface water? that's a whole 'nother thread...). Low enough that it's not something that occupies much or any of my limited brain power, since I'm neither pregnant nor an infant.
Generally (but not always), organic produce can be more flavorful; shortly after the legislation passed, I was on a panel with Nell Newman and other organic food luminaries (my star only burned bright for a month, maybe... ;D) speaking to organic retailers. I tried to get across the message that if they managed to produce an organic tomato that tasted like styrofoam, they'd have failed. While there's some pretty unpalatable stuff out there, I'd say most organic producers and retailers understand that their price premium is partly because of flavor.
Personally, I buy organic when the price differential isn't too outrageous and if I think it'll taste better than the conventional alternative. I do that because I prefer the practices that go into organic production. My favorite way to buy is local, at farmers markets and the like, where I know the growers and can talk to them about how they grow their produce or meat -- hardly any of them are "certified" organic under the federal program, and I'm just fine with that.
Wow, thanks for that response triangleforge. I've been making the choice to buy organic when possible for the last 10 years or so, my reasons were for potentially lower levels of or weaker pesticides. Even if it isn't as much of a difference as I thought, I'd imagine there is still some benefit in going organic.
Generally speaking, I think there isn't any concrete evidence that organic produce is better for you. Doesn't mean that it isn't, just that nobody has conclusively proved that it is better for you. However, there is much research, I believe, that organic/sustainable farming is better for the soil and the ground water, streams, creeks, rivers, and eventually the ocean. The best tasting produce that I have had has always been the stuff I grow in the backyard.
I dunno...I guess it makes us feel good to opt for the healthier item
speaking personally for me to eat organic is like taking an aspirin to mitigate a brain tumor
I was born in 1951 so my level of craptamination makes switching to pesticide-free organic healthy foods near about as moot as it can get
My preference is organic, and, if possible , local. If the organic stuff is not good I don't buy it. Much of the flavor in the fruits and vegetables comes from the nutrients the crop contains. No flavor, no nutrition.
Quote from: Grappa on March 30, 2010, 08:35:16 AM
The best tasting produce that I have had has always been the stuff I grow in the backyard.
+1. I grow as much stuff out back as I can.
It's worth the effort, if you have the space.
I buy whatever is on sale.
5.99$ for a pound of broccoli at Whole Foods is make the beast with two backsing assnine.
Everyone has their reasons to buy whatever they choose..
Locally produced foods, many of which are organic many not, are generally better tasting, fresher, and have more of the vitamins that whatever that food is noted for left in the plant.
Vegetables that are picked before they're ripe, packed in a box, and spend 2 or 3 weeks in a refrigerated trailer on their way to your local wholesale market and then another week in your grocers cooler are about as good and good for you as cardboard IMO.
Lot's of people are fine with that.
Make your choice.
I like locally produced White Castle sliders
good for you too!!! see link to nutritional values!!!! [thumbsup]
http://www.whitecastle.com/nutrition (http://www.whitecastle.com/nutrition)
Quote from: RAT900 on March 30, 2010, 08:48:28 AM
I dunno...I guess it makes us feel good to opt for the healthier item
speaking personally for me to eat organic is like taking an aspirin to mitigate a brain tumor
I was born in 1951 so my level of craptamination makes switching to pesticide-free organic healthy foods near about as moot as it can get
Then you should eat it solely for the taste. There is a reason the best restaurants in the US use fresh organic veggies when ever possible. They taste better.
Don't take my word for it. When you stop at the grocery store this week buy an organic tomato and a conventional tomato and eat them side by side.
My wife and I are starting to take this one step further and are growing/preserving some of our food ourselves. I know I can grow a tomato that tastes better than anything I can get in the stores.
sac
/our chickens show up in May [thumbsup]
Quote from: lethe on March 30, 2010, 07:02:12 AM
I eat only hormone laden, irradiated, pesticide and MSG filled processed foods.
When they release the disease and pestilence from the labs, my body will be immune but you organic eating weenies will all die off quick.
And, once you do finally die, you'll never decompose! [thumbsup]
Quote from: Speedbag on March 30, 2010, 01:00:37 PM
And, once you do finally die, you'll never decompose! [thumbsup]
I can be my own monument.
Quote from: lethe on March 30, 2010, 01:09:10 PM
I can be my own monument.
Nate can paint you to look like granite.
Quote from: RAT900 on March 30, 2010, 11:51:04 AM
I like locally produced White Castle sliders
good for you too!!! see link to nutritional values!!!! [thumbsup]
http://www.whitecastle.com/nutrition (http://www.whitecastle.com/nutrition)
I guess since Krystals are now where near as good as sliders..... White Castle is organic and Krystals is genetically modified?
We try to shop in this order:
Seasonal. Things only grow at certain times of year here
Local. How far was it shipped? 2 to 300 miles is ok with me. Not much more.
Organic. If in season and local.
We do not maintain 100% adherence to this, but we try.
We do not eat much processed food beyond flour, pasta, and peanut butter.
We have a garden too.
Watch the movie Food Inc.
On a less sarcastic note, you can avoid some of the cost associated with organics at grocery stores by participating in Community Supported Agriculture (CSA). In a nutshell, you hit a couple of your local farmers markets or peruse the website below. You "buy" a share with a farm and every week you get a basket of fresh produce. Depending on the farm it may or may not be Organic, but either way it will be fresh. On the plus side, alot of people learn to eat a bunch of green stuff that they never would have bought in the store.
http://www.localharvest.org/csa/ (http://www.localharvest.org/csa/)
Quote from: lethe on March 30, 2010, 01:09:10 PM
I can be my own monument.
Exactly.
More specifically, I foresee myself immortalized sorta like Jesus in Rio - huge statue, superbly muscled, scantily clad babe at my feet looking up as if in awe, lions at my feet protecting, blazing sword held high in the air.
It'll be most kickass. [thumbsup]
((thump)) huh
What the f***.....
Quote from: Speedbag on March 30, 2010, 02:37:11 PM
Exactly.
More specifically, I foresee myself immortalized sorta like Jesus in Rio - huge statue, superbly muscled, scantily clad babe at my feet looking up as if in awe, lions at my feet protecting, blazing sword held high in the air.
It'll be most kickass. [thumbsup]
((thump)) huh
What the f***.....
can I pick the color?
Penn & Teller: Bullshit - Organic Taste Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs#noexternalembed-normal)
That being said, I do shop at whole checks foods.
there brilliant, they do actually pick better pieces of produce and better cuts of meat. organic or not, they do get better quality, it is reflected in the price but its worth it to get a cut that doesn't cook down to 1/4 its weight, or fruits that rot in a day or two because they've been sitting too long on the shelf. (I'm looking in your direction albertsons). and their beer selection kicks serious ass.
it doesn't matter to me if the plant is genetically modified, or the cow pumped full of hormones, stomachs breaks most things down in to proteins for digestion. your not going to get anything in inorganic foods that you won't get in organic foods that could make you sick.
and, really, lets face it, without GM foods and pesticides we would loose so much of the crops that food prices would go threw the roof and more people will go hungry.
propaganda
Quote from: acalles on March 30, 2010, 03:11:19 PM
it doesn't matter to me if the plant is genetically modified, or the cow pumped full of hormones, stomachs breaks most things down in to proteins for digestion. your not going to get anything in inorganic foods that you won't get in organic foods that could make you sick.
Sure about that?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html)
Fresh is Best ! :)
After 60 years of eating pretty much whatever, I don't think eating Organic these last 5 years and how ever many I have left will undo the 1st 55.
I eat a lot of Craisins ( Dried Cranberries ) 6 ozs. a day,..........so if they are good for you then may be I'll live a little longer .
If they are not so good for me, ......well then you won't be reading my posts too much longer.
Dolph ;D
I think organic needs to be taken with a grain of salt since it can be a marketing gimmick just like everything else. Whole Foods has certainly exploited it.
At the end of the day, just buy local, seasonal and tasty produce, from the farmer's markets if you can. Chances are that many farmers aren't going to bother to label things as organic or tout them as such, especially at the Mexican markets I go to in Houston, but it is rather obvious just by looking at and tasting the produce just how 'organic' it really is.
In regards to the milk, that shit is just scary. I don't need a conclusive scientific study to look around this country and see some serious health problems that were not present before our food went big industry.
I'm happy to see so many people interested in eating naturally! It's something I'm truly passionate about. The quality of this crew never ceases to amaze and delight ;D
So, the milk I'm forced to drink now with labels in a language I don't understand - is that good for me?
Or the extra-homogonized "boxes" of milk that has a shelf life of 3-7 months - is that good for me?
If I can't find any fruit/veggie/meat that hasn't been "designed" to have a shelf life of a month+, it's pretty useless to me.
Quote from: MrIncredible on March 30, 2010, 08:56:23 AM
+1. I grow as much stuff out back as I can.
It's worth the effort, if you have the space.
Yes, you've hereby been authorized to procreate. good work!
Gonna attempt a small garden again this year....if the bunnehs don't get it all. :P
rabbit tastes good.
Quote from: Triple J on March 30, 2010, 06:27:24 PM
Sure about that?
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html)
interesting, especially considering they did not state anything about cows with added hormones,but more about the natural hormones in pregnant cows.
from the artical
QuoteThe potential for risk is large. Natural estrogens are up to 100,000 times more potent than their environmental counterparts, such as the estrogen-like compounds in pesticides.
soo.. the supposed health potential has really nothing to do with cows that have added hormones to boost production, but rather the natural effects of milking pregnant cows.
I like shopping at the local farmers market during the summer months and buying local sweetcorn, etc.
However...........
How can one be sure it is organic or are you going for the "grow in my home area" argument?
Speed - Sprinkle Blood Meal around your garden to keep out rabbits. My Dad used to do it when I was a kid and it seemed to work out well.
I tried to grow some marijuana in my basement; it didn't work.
Don't think I'll be taking a shot at growing my own veggies.
However, my wife did grow some killer Jalopeno's last year.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 31, 2010, 05:58:22 AM
I like shopping at the local farmers market during the summer months and buying local sweetcorn, etc.
However...........
How can one be sure it is organic or are you going for the "grow in my home area" argument?
Speed - Sprinkle Blood Meal around your garden to keep out rabbits. My Dad used to do it when I was a kid and it seemed to work out well.
I tried to grow some marijuana in my basement; it didn't work.
Don't think I'll be taking a shot at growing my own veggies.
However, my wife did grow some killer Jalopeno's last year.
You can't be sure.
If it's local it is fresher, and will taste better.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 31, 2010, 06:00:02 AM
You can't be sure.
If it's local it is fresher, and will taste better.
I've found the taste on local bought at the store to not be terribly different than the produce I buy at Kroger or a local place called Anderson's.
Maybe I just have shitty taste buds.
Quote from: acalles on March 31, 2010, 04:31:09 AM
interesting, especially considering they did not state anything about cows with added hormones,but more about the natural hormones in pregnant cows.
soo.. the supposed health potential has really nothing to do with cows that have added hormones to boost production, but rather the natural effects of milking pregnant cows.
True. But if the natural hormones affect us, it is only logical to assume that the ones they pump the cows full of to increase milk production do as well. I'll stick with as few hormones in my milk as possible please. :)
However, my main point in posting the link was to refute your claim that it doesn't matter what is in our food, as our stomach breaks everything down anyway. That would appear to be false. I think it very much matters what we stick into our bodies.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 31, 2010, 06:27:00 AM
I've found the taste on local bought at the store to not be terribly different than the produce I buy at Kroger or a local place called Anderson's.
Maybe I just have shitty taste buds.
I can tell a difference with fruits more then veggies. Local fruit is almost always better...way better even. I have noticed the lettuce grown in my parent's garden tastes better than the dtore bought, but that's about it. Of course, I'm not a big veggie fan, so...
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 31, 2010, 06:27:00 AM
I've found the taste on local bought at the store to not be terribly different than the produce I buy at Kroger or a local place called Anderson's.
Maybe I just have shitty taste buds.
Once it enters the supermarket you have no idea how long it's been since harvest.
Try a farmers market. Look the guy in the eye and ask him when it was picked.
He'll probably tell you today...pass on that guy. He's more than likely lying.
Buy from the guy that says yesterday.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 31, 2010, 06:38:02 AM
Try a farmers market. Look the guy in the eye and ask him when it was picked.
I shop at one when it opens during the summer months.
I just really can't tell the difference.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 31, 2010, 07:19:34 AM
I shop at one when it opens during the summer months.
I just really can't tell the difference.
Smoke less cigars ;)
Quote from: cyrus buelton on March 31, 2010, 07:19:34 AM
I shop at one when it opens during the summer months.
I just really can't tell the difference.
FWIW, There's a difference between "Farm Markets" and "Farmers' Markets" -- the former can (and usually does) consist mostly of folks who bought produce from the local wholesaler, the same place where local grocery stores buy it if they don't have their own corporate supply chain. Farmers Markets on the other hand often have an explicit requirement that the person who is selling the produce be the person who's selling -- it's worth asking how yours is organized. Generally speaking, having the grower physically standing behind the produce he/she raised means it's local and fresh(er), though you'll get a better idea on both if you actually talk to the seller as DP noted. If you care about such things, it's also worth talking to the produce manager at your regular big supermarket -- they've all noticed the interest in local foods, and many are jumping on the bandwagon, so when something's in season locally, your Safeway, Albertsons, Giant, or whatever might be a great source.
And some things you're not going to taste a whole lot of difference, especially if it's a veggie that transports or stores well -- squash, root vegetables, russet potatoes, etc. For me, the appeal of farmers markets with those are that you can find some weird, wild varieties that your local Safeway isn't going to bother with. But things like tomatoes & sweet corn start to convert sugars and lose flavor within minutes of harvest, so those are going to taste better the sooner you eat them -- better from a Farmers market that harvested them yesterday than from a Safeway that trucked them from Florida or South America, and still better from your own garden -- nothing's better than sweet corn when you've got the water already boiling or the grill already hot BEFORE you go out in the garden to harvest a few ears.
For me, it's even more important to know where meat comes from - we're lucky that local grassfed beef & lamb are readily available, but finding pork & chicken that were raised in a way that I'm personally comfortable with is a little trickier. Day before yesterday I found out I'd been drawn for an AZ elk tag, so with a little luck and a lot of work this Fall (and the purchase of a chest freezer), we'll have most of our red meat needs set for the season. [thumbsup]
Just last month, the USDA closed one of the loopholes that has bugged me since the law passed almost twenty years ago about organic milk, clarifying that in order to receive an organic label, milk had to come from cows that had been on pasture for at least 120 days of the year. Some of the biggest organic milk producers out there -- Horizon & Aurora -- fed organic feed in mega-feedlots just like any of the other huge dairies and were able to label their products as organic. And just because I've got a problem with those kinds of operations doesn't mean you have to, but I think we can agree that's NOT what most consumers had in mind when they plunked down their money for organic milk.
my prefered produce choice matrix
grow my own
join a local CSA
find a good farmers market
buy as local as possible
buy what the local grocer has on the shelf (avoiding the "organic" labels, cause I am a cynic and think its all marketing hype)
To those CSA members, a few questions. I like the idea of local, organic, heirloom or unusual veggies, etc, but:
How much shopping displacement takes place with your weekly or otherwise delivery? I am wonder how much this will actually supplement my usual trips to the store.
How much more work is it to rotate some of the more unusual fare into your cooking? I am not necessarily against cooking kolrhabi or mizuna, I just never have.
I am sure MMMV, but give me a rough idea if you can of how it has worked out in your household.
I'm going to be the voice of experience here, being a woman, when I say that extra estrogen is very much so and will always be:
DO NOT WANT!
Quote from: il d00d on March 31, 2010, 11:08:15 AM
To those CSA members, a few questions. I like the idea of local, organic, heirloom or unusual veggies, etc, but:
How much shopping displacement takes place with your weekly or otherwise delivery? I am wonder how much this will actually supplement my usual trips to the store.
How much more work is it to rotate some of the more unusual fare into your cooking? I am not necessarily against cooking kolrhabi or mizuna, I just never have.
I am sure MMMV, but give me a rough idea if you can of how it has worked out in your household.
I've belonged to CSAs here in Arizona and in Northern Virginia and generally enjoyed the experience. In NOVA, it was a single-farm CSA -- Bull Run Farms (http://www.bullrunfarm.com/) -- and here in Arizona it was a multi-farm one organized with the help of a local college (http://www.prescott.edu/csa/index.html). Both were pretty similar experiences.
One thing you'll notice right off -- the deliveries are pretty seasonal; very thin or nonexistent in the winter, coming on strong in the spring and then tapering in the late fall. The amount of grocery store purchases it displaces will vary accordingly; more in summer, less in winter.
On average, I'd say it replaced about half of our regular purchases, but could have done more if we'd planned a little better. As much as displacing other purchases, I found we mostly just ate veggies that we wouldn't otherwise, both in kind and quantity. Dinners that we would have skipped making a veg side because we were too tired ended up with us making something because it was there and we didn't want to waste it. You'll also find yourself looking up recipes for stuff you've never seen before. It's the first place I encountered kohlrabi, for example, which I now really like.
One of the frustrating things (especially in the thin seasons) is getting enough of something for half a portion -- um, what do I do with ONE beet? -- it works with a little bit of invention & mixing, but you will encounter it.
On the flip side, In the summer when tomatoes, basil and other things are coming on really heavy, you'll either waste some, give them away, or find ways to preserve them.
Weeks when you're away on vacation become an issue; both CSAs I've experienced will let you designate a friend to pick up your share that week, or donate to a local food bank. The Arizona one even had a limited "next day" pick up if you called and had them set aside a share.
We're not currently members of the local CSA, mostly because the semi-annual bill kept coming up in the same month as the six-month insurance bills on both motorcycles and we just weren't that liquid. Bikes are on monthly billing now, so might be time to look into it again.
This weekend, however, we're trying this for the first time: Bountiful Baskets (http://www.bountifulbaskets.org/). Their website does a lousy job of explaining it, but as I understand it the idea is you pay $15-$20 in advance whenever you want for a mix of large amounts of local produce -- eg. a flat of local strawberries, a big bunch of basil, a half bushel of squash and a couple of pounds of nuts (that's just a guess based on what I've heard about how it works). The basic idea is saving money by buying in bulk as a co-op and doing volunteer distribution, but there's also a certified all-organic option. We do a fair amount of canning and putting up preserves, so we hope to be able to keep up with significant amounts of stuff. We'll see!