Ducati Monster Forum

Well, I seem to have acquired a 2002 900IE motor. I'm part way into tearing it apart - cam pulleys look ok, belt rollers look a bit rusty, clutch is completely rusty, exterior is fairly dirty but no visible damage.

Glaring problems so far (without taking heads off and peering inside, or pulling alternator case cover off or clutch case cover off) is that somehow I bent an exhaust manifold stud on the horizontal cylinder. Looks like I may be able to hammer it back, but I am not sure this is a good idea - it likely got bent in my clumsy attempt at setting the motor down. Its bent at somewhere near a 30deg angle halfway up the stud.

It looks like I need to remove the stud and replace.

a) How?

b) Where to get a replacement?


More updates on this motor after I open it up, and see what other "goodies" await.

Should be threaded on both ends.  My shop manual ('05) shows it as removable and with a part number, so if anything, you could get one at the dealer.

Also, there are various tools to install and remove studs.  

Vise grips to remove to save $$$.

Google it!   [thumbsup]

Yep, looks like I need to grab a 77150788B - M6x65 'screw' - only about $1.78.

Not sure if I can do a simple double-nut method to remove it since its bent. i'll give it a look tonight.

Quote from: a m on April 06, 2010, 04:32:52 PM
Yep, looks like I need to grab a 77150788B - M6x65 'screw' - only about $1.78.

Not sure if I can do a simple double-nut method to remove it since its bent. i'll give it a look tonight.

Exhaust studs are 8X 1.25...don't know the length.

8? shoot. i thought they were 6.

Quote from: a m on April 06, 2010, 05:02:39 PM
8? shoot. i thought they were 6.

Yup...for sure.

Yes, 8mm diameter.
Parts catalogue says it's a part# 037092050.
Ducati Omaha says they're $0.99 each.

Don't bother with a double-nut routine if it's bent.
As Darkstar said, vice grips, you're not going to re-use it.

For some reason when I did the online parts finder through Commonwealth, the part number's associated name was that M6x65. Dunno why.


Ok, so I was able to do the double nut method with one more good whack towards center with a hammer - and by god, it was far easier than I thought it would be. Ha, I can't get the nuts off now, but I don't care. Time for a new stud!

While you're at it, you might as well replace all 4 of them. Exhaust studs see a ton of thermal cycling and tend to weaken over time.  I would replace them all if you are replacing one.  Less headache in the future.

i've removed one before

threaded on both ends

can get it at your dealer for cheap

it's a pita to remove but heat the alum outside with a torch, double nut it and a breaker bar it comes out without too much trouble.

LISTEN HERE CAREFULLY

The older Monster motors were all 8's but the newer (that 2002 is the only 900 that uses the newer heads) and are actually the 6's so make sure you get the 6's (like the newer motors have) as that' what will fit them. The old one's used a 13mm wrench and the one's you've got use a 10mm wrench.

Does the secondary oil filter plug have the electrical connector on the end cap? if yes, then it's a 2002 900 (or someone changed it).

You can use the double nut method to remove/replace

One of the bigger PITA's you will have with that motor is that it uses the newer exhaust, so any old 900 exhaust header will not fit that head as the head itself is slightly different. that's why it uses the newer 6mm studs instead of the older 8mm's.

It's too bad cause the 2002 M900 is a bit of a bastard child, it's got the new style frame, it's got the 5.9 ECU and the newer style heads/exhaust. But it's the only 900 that ever had these bits since Ducati started producing the 1000 in 2003.

You could likely take the 1000 or possibly the 800 exhaust header and make that work, but there may be some cutting/welding involved.

a little bit of penetrant and the studs should come out pretty easy.

Also replace the nuts while your at it.

What are you putting this motor into?

Just for clarity.

I shoved a 2002 M900 into my girlfriends 02 620 a few years ago. So I'm speaking from first hand experience with that motor.
I personally have a 2001 M900 and have compared the differences personally.

^^^ Really?!?  6mm exhaust studs?  I'll have to disagree on that fact.  ALL 2V engines 1990 - 2008 are 8mm.  I know.  I have the following here in my shop right now and they're all 8mm:

2006 M620
2004 SS1000DS engine (in a monster frame now)
1995 M900
1999 M750

The old-school nuts were 13mm to remove, but you can get the 10mm 'new style' nuts to go right on there.  I put the 10mm nuts on the 1999 M750 last week BTW.

Fantastic stuff.

Yes, I have it side by side by 1999 M900 motor. This was a 2002 900SSie motor. Has the electrical connection on sump at oil screen.

I thought the studs looked a little different but hadn't grabbed calipers just yet.

For purtiness, any chance I can throw on either SS, brass, or Ti studs? And if so, where to get?

Lastly, I can't find a source for a M10x1.0 grub/set screw. I want to remove oil pressure sender there - this is to be a barebones track toy.

i'm currently looking at a few various frames. The F042 frame from Pierobon is nice, but to get up and running, it costs nearly 10k for frame, subframe, etc. Not sure you can save money by using a sbk tank either. My goal is to put a 2v motor in a sbk frame so I can have sbk geometry and a relatively familiar motor feel.

While its an IE motor now, I don't think it will stay that way since I don't have any ECU or other parts for it (just the injectors/throttle bodies themselves). pricewise, it seems like it might be pretty costly to get those remaining IE bits, and not that much difference in $$$ to throw some Keihins on it.

But I haven't yet sorted all that out. Need to figure out how hard it is to make these cases work with sbk frame and swingarm. and by how hard, i mean, how much $$$ to have a rolling chassis. And by rolling chassis, I'm not including wheels, let me articulate: How much money to attach motor to frame, motor to swingarm, shock to frame/swingarm and put over in the corner while i save up some more.  Once I'm to motor-in-frame-and-swingarm, everything else seems to be straightforward.

I've never seen a 6mm exhaust stud on an air-cooled Duc.

Parts catalogues show the same exhaust stud for '00 -'02 900 heads.

There are 13mm hex nuts and 10mm hex nuts to go on those exhaust studs, yes.

Quote from: Duck-Stew on April 07, 2010, 06:16:26 AM
^^^ Really?!?  6mm exhaust studs?  I'll have to disagree on that fact.  ALL 2V engines 1990 - 2008 are 8mm.  I know.  I have the following here in my shop right now and they're all 8mm:

2006 M620
2004 SS1000DS engine (in a monster frame now)
1995 M900
1999 M750

The old-school nuts were 13mm to remove, but you can get the 10mm 'new style' nuts to go right on there.  I put the 10mm nuts on the 1999 M750 last week BTW.

Odd. I'm grabbing some calipers and will post up later today. The Commonwealth online parts finder named the part number I searched for (2002 SS 900 exhaust stud) as a M6x65.

Weird.

Also, I'm going to change the thread title to something more relevant shortly. I will also post pictures of the saddest clutch I've ever seen. If you can out-do me, I'll be impressed.

QuoteLastly, I can't find a source for a M10x1.0 grub/set screw. I want to remove oil pressure sender there - this is to be a barebones track toy.

There's a M10x1.0 plug that goes into the exhaust headers on the 2V Duc's.  It's available seperately but I don't know what it costs...

Oh, I didn't even realize that was the same thread. I will grab one off this SS's headers and see how that works.

Quote from: a m on April 07, 2010, 06:44:58 AM
Oh, I didn't even realize that was the same thread. I will grab one off this SS's headers and see how that works.

It'll work just fine.  I've done that same mod on the current project bike...

I remember seeing it on Darryl's M859 (kopfjager), but it was a special Ti grub screw.

I must be wrong then (wouldn't be the first time)  but I'd trust both Stu and Speeddog's extensive experience over mine most any day.

Regardless, it sounds like a cool project. Best of luck with it and please post pics of your progress.

I've got some really good local minds to pick as well as you guys. Some motor pics will come up shortly.

I'm going to pull of alt side case cover this afternoon likely to see if its really worth messing with. If its all rusty in there, we may just sell of anything on the motor that's reasonable and junk the rest. or keep it as a learning tool.

The 4V engines are 6mm IIRC....

Per your recs, I removed all exhaust studs. Piece of cake.

Took off valve inspection covers, expecting to see something ugly. A little gunk here or there, but... zero rust. Everything looks fantastic inside on the top end... Starting to get curious about the underside...


Pulled the heads expecting to see something horrific on either the cylinder or the valves. Nada. Some carbon. Can turn cam pulleys and make magic happen without much issue. Other than having ugly cam pulleys, the heads look great. Again, I delay the pictures, but I was happily surprised.

Question: Best place to get tool(s) for:
  a) Retorquing heads when I'm done. I fear the Ducati tool is not cheap (for a U-shaped 15mm wrench). By "when I'm done", I mean when its been ported, has perf. cams and possible other fanciness done to it.
  b) Tool for holding cam, and tool for removing cam nut? I'm looking forward to using the VeeTwo cam pulleys which don't have a fancy nut. or perhaps, a fancier nut that does not require a tool, depending on how you look at it.

So next up is the alt case cover and clutch case cover to see if bad news lurks behind. (I have an alt-case cover removal tool, no worries here.)

I should note that I got this engine for about $400.  Including swingarm (only one axle plate), injectors, oil cooler, rear brake master, and clutch slave. I consider myself quite the bargain shopper, however I thought that gremlins would lurk inside given the price.

Oh, and the calipers said 8mm today. Somebody should update the Commoto online parts finder number. And its not a symmetrical rod - the head side is shorter by a good bit than the flange side.

G'day a m.

Better get those cam pulleys quick if it hasn't got adjustable ones. 
A mate of mine just bought some and said that Vee two were throwing them out real cheap.

I reckon the 900ie cams are good, nearly as 'long' as the ST2s and 'better' than the 900 carb cams..

I can see your thinking. That bike would go well with 41 FCRs on short manifolds, porting and Ignitek set up. You could fund some of that selling off the throttle bodies, etc. It will be a great project to watch. I'm envious as I'm selling the race bike to pay for the kids dental work.

Here's a contingency plan in case you run out of cash and can't finish the project. You have spares to upgrade and support your Monster. You could fit the ie cams to your bike (they are a little 'hotter'), you could use the primary gears as I think Ducati swapped to the 32/59 'hunting tooth' ratio of 1.84.1 and get them lightened. You have a spare close ratio gear box and bottom end parts. The flywheel pick ups and alternator are different and would sell. There are parts to sell off to pay for the swap over. You have parts to sell, parts for spares and parts to retrofit. Just have to check on what's interchangable and what isn't.

It's good to have a back up plan.

Either way for $400-00 you're on a winner.

That's what I was thinking.

When I first started contemplating the end of VeeTwo parts, I got a spare set of adjustable pulleys, so we are good there. I also have a set of their track grind games (-212), and torque (-210) cams, so the IE cams may end up getting sold as well. I know they are hotter, but not as hot as either of the two sets I have sitting on the shelf currently.

My local shop, AMS has a full set of STM pulleys on the cheap, so I might look into those if they replace the center pulleys as well (and not just the cam-end pulleys).

This motor may end up being a parts house, or get some use in a frame I acquire. I'm going to see if Stuart (Rust) has a spare supersport frame in his garage, and if so, I'll start looking at triples and forks, and have a rolling chassis before I can blink.

I'd really like a 2V superbike, but I'm just not sure how to make it work with my level of expertise.

This is getting really interesting now, there will be three simultaneous 2v sbk builds on the forum.  I can put you in touch with the guy that machined my 900 to sbk width if you like.  I'm doing a 748/916/996/998 and Theo is doing a 749/999 so I think the only logical thing you can do is get a 848/1098/1198 frame.  ;)

Hahahaha. Yes, and get some MotoGP-esque bodywork, no?

For machining the cases, this required completely stripping them down, splitting them and removing everything? Ballpark me a price. Round to the nearest hundred, please - no need for you to find out to the nearest dollar what it cost.

Anything else needed to be done to the cases? Or, at that point, are you capable of bolting everything together and having a rolling chassis?

My other two thoughts or alternatives:
a) Pierobon F042 frame (expensive) - I'd have the first carb'd F042 style bike to date. However, it requires its own tank, which makes it less appealing.

b) Supersport done up in the Emozione style bodywork from Kaenma. At least I'd be unique in Texas. Or so I'd hope.

I'm also going to pick Jeff Nash's brain up at AMS since he worked on the Troll Supertwin project.

This thread needs pictures.

Troll Supertwin:
(http://www.trollsupertwin.com/uploads/Troll_Race_Yellow.jpg)

Pierobon F042
(http://www.f042.com/img/gallery/F042/14.jpg) (http://www.f042.com/img/gallery/F042/15.jpg)

Kaenma Emozione SS supersmall fairing
(http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/d45r.jpg) (http://www.kaemna.de/pic/katalog/d45.jpg)

Quote from: a m on April 07, 2010, 01:43:14 PM
That's what I was thinking.

When I first started contemplating the end of VeeTwo parts, I got a spare set of adjustable pulleys, so we are good there. I also have a set of their track grind games (-212), and torque (-210) cams, so the IE cams may end up getting sold as well. I know they are hotter, but not as hot as either of the two sets I have sitting on the shelf currently.

My local shop, AMS has a full set of STM pulleys on the cheap, so I might look into those if they replace the center pulleys as well (and not just the cam-end pulleys).

This motor may end up being a parts house, or get some use in a frame I acquire. I'm going to see if Stuart (Rust) has a spare supersport frame in his garage, and if so, I'll start looking at triples and forks, and have a rolling chassis before I can blink.

I'd really like a 2V superbike, but I'm just not sure how to make it work with my level of expertise.

Good catch on the Vee Two cams and pulleys.

41FCRs on short manifolds, porting, Igniteck and 212 race cams. [evil]

Ha, I know. If I can get them to put together the darn lightweight primary gear set, I'll be cookin' with grease.

What bike did the 900 come out of?
You could use a monster dss or sss or a sbk dss or sss
This is a quote from his build thread when he narrowed the cases

QuoteAnyone who's converted their Monster to SSSA using a SBK swingarm knows exactly what I'm talking about... luckily there are marks on the case where the swingarm has to be narrowed to, so I started dremeling. Once done, I faced and squared the case by hand using a specialty bicycle tool known as a bottom bracket facer, which is a simple machinist's tool essentially.

And I really like that kaenma ss fairing, I would love to run that but I will need headlights  :(

Supersport 900ie (2002).

That's pretty ballsy, going at it with a dremel. I mean, i got balls, but the risk of screwing up seems great - its the cases at a crucial structural area. There's not an easy fix that I could think of if I screwed it up. Sneezed really hard with dremel running, etc.

(They have a headlights version)

(http://kaemna.de/pic/katalog/1280a.jpg)

It isn't as structural on a sbk frame because the frame extends to the pivot, where a monster uses the top mounts only.  The engine doesn't look nearly as stressed in a sbk chassis...to me, there may be more engineering behind it that I don't know about.

That fairing loses something having the lights in it, but it still looks pretty good.

Pretty tasteful design overall, but yes, with lights no bike is as sexy (except my blessed monster)

Why don't you just rock a monster swinger, or do you have an sbk piece you need to put to use?

Not sure how shock fitment would go with a superbike frame, monster/supersport swingarm. I suppose I could weld a mount, but the plan was for OEM geometry where possible.

gotcha

do you see the marks on the case pivot that were mentioned in the quote?

I do. They are not symmetrical. i need to hold a sbk swingarm up next to it to see. It would also help to see a sbk case side to see what there is to do. I can't imagine dremeling into it with the bearings still inside the case... Don't see how to push them out either... Thoughts?


Getting camera out tomorrow. Alternator side case cover...off. everything looks good except the bearing that goes on the end of the alternator coil. Either I broke it, or it was broke, but little ball bearings fell out onto my floor when I flipped that case over to set it down, and the inner ring came out too. perhaps i was a little aggressive in my removal with the tool, but nothing was out of the ordinary in using it... Oh well, its only a $13 bearing and I want to replace as many as i can get to easily anyhow.

Alright, here are some pics of the motor's internals. everything looked good...

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8IfJe9D2JI/AAAAAAAAFbs/FlS7a5H_XOU/s800/IMG_2211.JPG)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8IfLmT7SxI/AAAAAAAAFb8/0CxEpz4LKcA/s800/IMG_2215.JPG)

My sophisticated "catch-all" door mat that my wife no longer lets me put out front was employed temporarily before I could get a nice tray and some cardboard:

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8Jwgb4RxbI/AAAAAAAAFc0/Tuc_pzgtO6M/s800/IMG_2206.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8Jwgyx3g2I/AAAAAAAAFc4/9CgUr1JKW-k/s800/IMG_2207.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8JwiP-yBPI/AAAAAAAAFdA/w6AlXglcnj0/s800/IMG_2209.JPG)

This motor mount looks good, (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8JwhQrvKgI/AAAAAAAAFc8/f7JdkovOIMA/s800/IMG_2208.JPG)
but the other side (not pictured), has a hairline fracture on the motor mount region that protrudes past the cases. It seems like an easy weld fix, but I've never had to deal with this - thoughts on risks? I want to know before I invest more time or money into any other parts.

If you've got thoughts, good bad or otherwise, share away.

1) Additionally, is there any hints or tricks to removing the swingarm bearings in the cases?

While I had planned on splitting the cases to have the crank balanced (and lightened, polished, knife edged... possibly) for either 94mm or 95mm pistons (944 or 964cc) and light rods, I figured this would be a good time to pull them out if they have to come out from the middle... but I was hoping to mock it up in a frame before I ripped into its guts.

The current plan is to have the heads done up, race cams put in with mbp collets, and then powdercoated (not red, unless they are MBP done up).

I was going to put in some higher strength cylinder studs when it all went back together, but I found removing stock studs incredibly difficult... Tried using two nuts tightened really tight to each other, but they would both back out when I cranked hard on it.

2) If planning to use an Ignitech ignition to make it fire with carbs (removing the "IE" designation all together), I'm trying to figure out how to use the IE timing sensor. I found a thread (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=56514 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=56514)) that talks about 46/2, and I'm trying to figure out how the pickup sensor works on the IE motor. Is it picking up the two "recessed" teeth on the gear pictured on the top left of that last picture? That gear has two teeth that do not sit 'flush' with the rest on the outside face, and there's also a small dot somewhere else on the gear.

Wondering if its possible to wire up that sensor to an Ignitech unit to send sparks to some dynacoils, and then to the plugs.

I figure, the other way would be to throw, if possible, a carb'd 3-phase flywheel on and set up the carb style pick-ups bracket.

The 2 resesed teeth on the timing sensor is what the sensor picks up.  The dot on it is for timing it with the crank gear.  Not sure about running aftermarket spark control off it, but it does run at cam speed so the sensor only picks up its reference point every other crank rotation.  There are some on this board who have run 1000ds's off carbs so maybe they can chime in on the ignition.

Sweet. The thread I linked to off .MS was saying something similar. I should be able to figure out the wiring and get it connected to an Ignitech box. That's pretty far off into the distance, but good to know that it should be possible in the meantime.

Up on deck is figuring out how to get this motor into a SBK frame. A 748 superbike frame and swingarm. (That's what I can get my fingers on in pristine condition for cheap.)

Silly question, but back on engine cases...

Besides the swingarm mounting distance "width" - is there any difference in the location of motor mounts between the air cooled bikes and the water cooled bikes? I didn't think so, but now I'm concerned after an email I received (shared below).

I'm measuring, from rear/top motor mount center to swingarm pivot center, approx. 100mm. From swingarm pivot center to rear/lower motor mount center, I get approx. 110mm.

Anybody have a 748 motor laying around that could verify that?

The frame I'm getting is an 02/03 748 (I thought they ended in 02, with 03 being the 749, but its listed as an 03). Fixed headstock (fine with me).

Here's the email that troubled me: [my commentary is bracketed and white obviously]

QuoteYou need to mount the motor in a mill and cut 15mm from the left side of the motor and 20mm off the right side.  You need to basically cut off the outer bearing area where the swing arm pivots in the motor.  There are 2 bearings in each side of the motor.  remove one from each side and machine the motor to fit the swing arm. You can install the swing arm into the SBK frame to get a total width measurement and cut the motor to fit.  [that's what i thought so far...] You will also need to move the upper rear motor mount to line up the bolt hole.  It will be about 8mm off.  [what?] You will notice in the pic that the rear mount hole is the same size as the swing arm one.  It is the same as the front hole stock. [yup... but i thought the 748 mounting holes were the same front and back also...] You will have to make a custom exhaust.  [of course] I made everything myself at home.  The bike in the pic is all ready to run with all electrical done just need gas to run. You can see by the color of the pipes I have already run the motor. [stop bragging]

Who wrote the email?
Where's the pic?
I have a 748 frame in the garage and a SS900 motor that were once one.  The only modification to the frame was the X brace near the airbox to clear the TB's.  Not sure what he is talking about when he's talking about moving the motor mount.

http://www.duccutters.com/Hull-944Corsa.tpl (http://www.duccutters.com/Hull-944Corsa.tpl)

(http://www.duccutters.com/Hull-944Corsa/Originals/scan81.jpg)

(http://www.duccutters.com/Hull-944Corsa/Originals/scan71.jpg)

His motor is older than mine, likely his frame is as well. I picked up the frame today (and swingarm and shock pivot).

Fun story goes here:

The frame is a 2003 Ducati 748 Frame. That's right, an '03 748 frame. They didn't import 748's to the US in 2003, we got 749's. But an american pilot picked this up at the factory and brought it home. Its never been registered, came with all original paperwork.

Swingarm is a standard 748 style swingarm, same with shock pivot. I've got a few more things on the way so I can mock it up and see where the issues lie.

Nice! I never looked at that build before.  Still not sure what he's talking about on the motor mounts.

I think I'm seeing the issue as I use an old spare frame bolt for the front, an SS swingarm pivot bolt through the frame and motor pivot. Looks like the motor mount is just a smidge off - should be up and forward slightly.


I'll take some pictures. Time to start the brainstorming.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch I was removing things from the sides like the oil pump/gear (just 3 bolts - probably the easiest thing to remove yet), and then pulled the flywheel/starter sprag (done, absolutely still a pregnant dog).


Anyhoo,

As I turned the motor to get ready to remove the flywheel nut, i spied on the work bench, a huge ass ball bearing. I mean, the sucker's gotta be 3/8" in diameter, SS ball bearing. where in the crap could this have come from? Would it be a part of the oil pump assembly? I didn't disassemble that pump, just pulled the three bolts and wiggled it out, set it aside (bagged it, tagged, it and boxed it).

Check the main bearings on the crank to see if it came from there.

Oil pump doesn't have a big ball in it.

i figure that's where it came from. Can't believe the vibrations from an impact wrench let one just... "fall" out. (especially without the rest pouring out after it)

Guess I'll know when I split the cases.

Quote from: a m on April 14, 2010, 06:17:00 PM
i figure that's where it came from. Can't believe the vibrations from an impact wrench let one just... "fall" out. (especially without the rest pouring out after it)

Guess I'll know when I split the cases.

My 750 died from a main bearing failure...

in that case the cage disintegrated allowing the balls to roam free in the races leaving a large space for the crank to move up and down.

Wouldn't surprise me if that 900 had the same issue.

You don't need to split the cases to see if there's a ball missing from one of the mains.

just have to remove the gears that run on the crank?

This is my first go at doing motor internals, so I'm taking everything slowly.

hey.





that bearing ain't cheap.

Quote from: a m on April 15, 2010, 04:30:30 AM
hey.

that bearing ain't cheap.

[coffee]

Ha. I know. old news.

Perhaps I can get "Bearings Bonanza" pricing, since I'll be getting... pretty much every bearing.


Looks like I'll be trying to migrate all the 900 2v internals over to a 748 set of cases per Brad Black's suggestion - hopefully it will all work out. no machining to cases involved then for use in a 748 frame.

900 guts fit a 748 case?

we are going to find out. I measured with calipers the stud spacing on the cutaway 4v motor model in AMS (Dallas) yesterday, and measured the stud spacing on this 02 900ie engine and they were the same. Oil passage ways looked like they were in the same places.

Now my only thoughts are "i hope all the transmission parts fit up - gears, drum, etc".

All that stuff will fit.

Try to get ahold of a wide-ratio transmission.

i know you've said it before, but which years are which?

Quote from: a m on April 15, 2010, 06:27:45 AM
i know you've said it before, but which years are which?

From Brad's site:
http://www.bikeboy.org/ducgearing.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducgearing.html)

All 851, 888, 916 and 996 Strada models, 916SP, all 900SS, ST2, ST3, ST4, ST4S, S4R, all carburetted 900M, 1000SS, 1000M, Multistrada.

So an m900ie would not be wide ratio?

Quote from: Monsterlover on April 15, 2010, 01:58:45 PM
So an m900ie would not be wide ratio?

Not from the factory.

Now, it *is* Ducati, so one may have slipped through.  [laugh]

Here's a guy that has some cases and other 748 motor parts
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=76955 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=76955)

I guess I'm at a loss as to why my 900 bolts up in my 748 frame and yours doesn't 

IMO, that kind of 'wont bolt up' is due to a bent frame.

but my frame is perfect - never been used?

i think the big change is on the oblong holes at the swingarm pivot and the 999 style frames that have a reversible "bushing" or plate that makes it easy for the Radical Ducati bikes to bolt up.

Bigger hammer?

haha. Camera battery is charged. Tomorrow will be "pic" heavy.

Quote from: a m on April 15, 2010, 06:16:11 PM
i think the big change is on the oblong holes at the swingarm pivot and the 999 style frames that have a reversible "bushing" or plate that makes it easy for the Radical Ducati bikes to bolt up.

Yep you're exactly right, I hadn't thought of that

Not much new from today - gotta find my camera cable.

1) Started thinking about reassembly in the distant future. Is there a reasonable alternative to the head-nut tool? I think when I priced it a week or two ago, I shat myself.

2) Likewise, good tool for wrenching off the castle nuts on the belt pulleys? There's three. I don't plan on reusing them. I had thought about makeshift strapwrench to hold the pulley using the old belt, but no thoughts about grabbing the nut itself and wrenching it loose. I'll be switching to the VeeTwo nuts next time, and I have their tool for the pulley (and it uses a simple socket for those nuts).

3) What does a person need to do for the nuts on the big engine gears that have a bent washer on them? (Also, when rebuild time comes in the future, how does one put it back on? Use new washer and bend the edge or reuse? (I am venturing towards uncharted territory).

4) Snap rings. OK to reuse? I went on and swapped out the oil pulley gear for the lightened one, and you have to pull two snap rings to swap 'em - likewise with the starter/idler gear's snap ring.

Since we are in the motor's nether-regions, I want to tread carefully. I don't think these things are in the Haynes or LT Snyder manuals...

reuse the bent washers...

reuse snap rings...if you look closely there is a sharp and a rounded edge. The sharp edge goes away from the direction of force...if you get my meaning

I don't have any good info on your other questions.

Cam nuts, some folks have made a crude tool to get 'em on and off.

Old belt and *big* curved-jaw vise grips can hold the pulley.

As long as you don't distort the snap-rings they're OK for re-use.

If your primary gear is held on to the crank by a taper, take it to a shop that has the OEM tool to get it off.
The OEM tool is a drop-dead serious puller, and it's completely necessary.

Are you splitting the cases?

The head nut tool can be had on ebay for ~$20
Wouldn't it be easier to graft on a **9 style oval lower mount than swap cases?

$10

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-STEERING-STEM-TRIPLE-TREE-NUT-TOOL-996-1098-748_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439c570841QQitemZ290385758273QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-STEERING-STEM-TRIPLE-TREE-NUT-TOOL-996-1098-748_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem439c570841QQitemZ290385758273QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)

Nice tool for the steering head, but he was talking cylinder head nut and cam nut.

Great thread I'm really lovin it. I used this tool from my local Napa Auto Parts to get the heads off my M620. I used the 9/16ths. It was slightly loose but it was as close as I could get without going metric (which they didn't have in stock). I used it gently so I wouldn't damage the tool or the nut.  I hope this helps.

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Results.aspx?Ntt=Offset%20Distributor%20Clamp%20Wrenches%20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0 (http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Results.aspx?Ntt=Offset%20Distributor%20Clamp%20Wrenches%20&Ntk=Keyword&Nty=1&N=0)

Edit: I just found some metric ones online.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/offset-distributor-clamp-wrenches/p2017908.jcwx?skuId=442200&TID=8014524F&utm_source=Google_Product_Search&utm_medium=CSE&utm_content=product-362307&zmam=15972153&zmas=21&zmac=141&zmap=362307 (http://www.jcwhitney.com/offset-distributor-clamp-wrenches/p2017908.jcwx?skuId=442200&TID=8014524F&utm_source=Google_Product_Search&utm_medium=CSE&utm_content=product-362307&zmam=15972153&zmas=21&zmac=141&zmap=362307)

Very nice tool below Speeddog!!

Combination wrench + socket + welding =

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2782054367_e55bbcf36e_o.jpg)

For the head nut tool you can just weld a socket to a cut off open end wrench.  Keep it at 90 degrees to your torque wrench and torque will be accurate.  I think LT Snyder also sells one.

I tried to gob up a tool for the castle nut and use an old belt for a strap wrench, and that just didn't work although I'm sure someone with better skills could make a better tool.  I got this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310200801509 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310200801509)

Quote from: Speeddog on April 16, 2010, 05:26:45 PM
Nice tool for the steering head, but he was talking cylinder head nut and cam nut.

[bang]

Quote from: Speeddog on April 16, 2010, 03:16:29 PM
Cam nuts, some folks have made a crude tool to get 'em on and off.

Old belt and *big* curved-jaw vise grips can hold the pulley.

As long as you don't distort the snap-rings they're OK for re-use.

What about those nuts with the bent-up washers? I see two, one on each side of the cases.

Quote from: Speeddog on April 16, 2010, 03:16:29 PM
If your primary gear is held on to the crank by a taper, take it to a shop that has the OEM tool to get it off.
The OEM tool is a drop-dead serious puller, and it's completely necessary.

Are you splitting the cases?

I was planning on it. I don't know of another way to get crank out. It will need to be balanced (and knife edged and lightened, and hell... made to look like the SPS cranks...) for ze big bore kit. I've read a few threads, one particular with Chris Kelley, talking about the Mahle Pistons (95mm - "966" kit).

I figure, if I am going to do this and take my time (as working budget is slow going, wife has needs), I better do it right. So, balanced crank, go over every bolt and bearing (replace as many bolts as I can with titanium since I'm taking my time), high compression/big bore pistons with the high-temp barrier coating, Carillo rods (just don't know about the longevity of Ti rods, like Pankl - no experience there).

Here's the "plan" at this point, for the motor only:
- "966" (964cc - 68mm stroke, 95mm bore), carillo rods, balanced SPS-style crank job
- VeeTwo -212 "Track/Race" cams and accompanying valves, MBP Collets, VeeTwo billet adj. pulleys
- Ported heads
- Split Keihin's on the short manifolds, Ignitech and DynaCoil ignition
- VeeTwo lightweight primary
- Motogadget for fusebox/wiring & tach/gauges
- Replacing the head studs with APE or if budget allows, Nichols.
- Febur or NCR oversized oil cooler. Or acquire new Hypermotard evo oil cooler (which is large and in charge to begin with)
- 48t slipper clutch
- Going to have to figure out a 2-1 pipe, or possibly one low (horiz), and one under tail (vertical) for equal length (a la Desmosedici race pipe kit)

For the chassis, it'll be going in a 748 frame/swingarm/triples. Alu Mono subframe, some fairing stay, "Race" front fairing (and I'm considering still using the air-ducts to bring air towards the carbs, unobstructed by an oil cooler, and bring cool air towards vertical cylinder), Mono-tail, 748-era tank or ETI fuel-cel, and a 2v "long" bellypan, some form of lightweight wheels (mag, cf, alu)

That's what I've penciled out in the garage. Clearly there are holes in my plan, budgetary concerns, and a steep learning curve. I'll be taking this quite slowly so don't get all "antsy-in-the-pantsy" on me just yet.

I have, however, settled on a name. Or pair of terms to describe the bike:

TESTA AEREA - Air Head (ha, jokes)

and

CIRCUITO PARZIALMENTE NUDO (Track, Partially Nude - since it has some fairings - windscreen/bellypan and the seat is "comprehensive")

Quote from: a m on April 17, 2010, 05:46:49 AM
What about those nuts with the bent-up washers? I see two, one on each side of the cases.

A) Have the shop do it.
B) Buy/borrow/steal the sockets and an impact gun.

Your build list looks good.

The build list looks expensive :o

but yummy :D

+1

I already have some of these things. VeeTwo cams/pulleys/lightweight primaries.  The engine was going to get torn apart for inspection anyhow since I don't know its history, and since I want a big bore kit, might as well do the rods and crank while I can.

I think Jeff Nash will do the heads. I've talked with him about expectations from his porting and the 2v heads he's done in the past have been spot on comparable to the dyno graphs that I have seen from MBP heads. Two big differences seem like (a) cost (Nash isn't as expensive), and (b) not painted red. (fine, I want mine black I think).

Oh, and that giant "ball bearing", I've just realized was the shift detent. Ha. I'm sitting there staring at what I've taken off of the motor, and then realized that when I took that out, there would be that ball. duh.

Quote from: a m on April 18, 2010, 08:04:34 AM
<snip>
Oh, and that giant "ball bearing", I've just realized was the shift detent. Ha. I'm sitting there staring at what I've taken off of the motor, and then realized that when I took that out, there would be that ball. duh.

Good thing...

those main bearings are pricey.

shoooo. it would have eaten too far into my moonpie/rc-cola budget.

Here's where we are at, pics:

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vM_28W6vI/AAAAAAAAFeA/eAGURQDZRnk/s800/IMG_2216.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNB632i5I/AAAAAAAAFeE/0bezAO68JfU/s800/IMG_2217.JPG)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNC1sfnOI/AAAAAAAAFeI/4KCCyjZRCoc/s800/IMG_2218.JPG)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNDgLxtfI/AAAAAAAAFeM/ttkwvwa365I/s800/IMG_2219.JPG)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vND7XYfpI/AAAAAAAAFeQ/KXTxmFKnNU4/s800/IMG_2220.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNFxGOWPI/AAAAAAAAFeU/Z5UYCYyrcV8/s800/IMG_2221.JPG)

You can see the crack on the motor mount here:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNGpxRylI/AAAAAAAAFec/MX8IifEpw7Y/s800/IMG_2222.JPG)

This is the spacing at issue, where the cases would need to be machined for stuffing into a SBK frame/swingarm.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNHbY2gkI/AAAAAAAAFeg/DI4ZZ3R1naU/s800/IMG_2223.JPG)

You can see here where the swingarm pivot hole could be machined lower by a smidge.
(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNH_WCAEI/AAAAAAAAFek/HSJxFwenarM/s800/IMG_2224.JPG)

Dirty but fine ol' heads.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S8vNIsj0VFI/AAAAAAAAFeo/v2L0YYrTLWs/s800/IMG_2238.JPG)

748 cases are here. They look fine --> Test fit the cylinders: They slide right down the studs with no issue... until you get to the face of the cases: Locator pin is in the wrong position. Looks like I'll need to have a second locator pin-hole on these cylinders so they'll bolt up. Oil-ways look like they lineup.

Bearings are bad most everywhere on the new cases. Many are missing or only have the outer races in place.

I'll take some pics of these cases which show the differences in the machining done at the swingarm pivot faces.

[popcorn]

Educate me on shift / transmission drums, please.

I understand there are different part numbers, why? (Don't tell me "the parts are different" - elaborate please as to which bikes used different shift drums and why I may not be able to swap one in...)

Because I may have acquired a lightweight one.

just random searching, but i found a corse aluminum transmission drum that was on ebay that FBF was selling. sold for $100.

since you were on the lightweight gearbox thought.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390183328324&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT#ht_839wt_1112 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390183328324&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT#ht_839wt_1112)

just a thought

QuoteThe internals of the RS motor would have a roller shift detent, alumnium shift drum, roller style shift forks, I beam Pankl Ti rods, HC high dome pistons usually Omega, kick ass cams and a whole bunch of other stuff like a slipper clutch, Corsa Breather ect.

From: http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/general-ducati-chat/59744-996sps-vs-996rs.html#post600172 (http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/general-ducati-chat/59744-996sps-vs-996rs.html#post600172)



Wonder how hard it is to find roller shift forks, or if they are necessary (or just better, but not required)

I doubt they're necessary.

They'd make for smoother shifting, I'd guess. . .

I'll grab the roller pawl arm from Factory Pro when I do it, so that should smoothen things out some more. Wonder if there are line-up issues for an RS motor. As I have just learned from above link, they are nothing like the SPS.

No FHE here, but I think if you use non-roller shift forks with an aluminum drum it'll ruin it.

That makes sense.

The pads, or ends of the forks, would be harder than the aluminum drum

Essentially you'd be machining the shift drum every time you shift [laugh]

Better find those roller forks. . .

Any ideas on where to get?

I suppose I should shoot Ferracci an email since they were in to these quite a bit. I suppose Nash at AMS might know also since he did AMA big time back in the day.


Any other ideas?

Here's a quick test fit I did to see what it would look like. 900 2v heads and cylinders in 748 cases, 748 oddity frame, black pc'd swingarm.

Everything was just loosely thrown together to get an idea, so there are some pretty clear assembly errors.


You can see easily the area of the frame in front of the vertical head that will need modification for the intake manifold/carb:

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S9HoNd0oA6I/AAAAAAAAFg0/da3o7yanwZs/s800/IMG_2242.JPG)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S9HoPNUSAYI/AAAAAAAAFg4/Nrz21qrL32M/s800/IMG_2243.JPG)

Current progress of 900ie dissassembly, shown below. Time to yank the primary gear and the driven gear, pull the crank and have it done up nicely.

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/S9HoQIG2qWI/AAAAAAAAFg8/so6NAWSToXI/s800/IMG_2244.JPG)

Certainly more troubleshooting is in store for me, and more questions, but so far so good: Quite exciting to say the least. It would be much easier if I had a big pile of money and didn't have to take a break soon and let the bank acct rebound before the next surge. (I mean, when the motors getting its thing done, I'll be able to start looking at suspension - forks, damper, shock; triples, bars, rearsets, and eventually start contemplating exhaust options.)

This is a great thing you are doing.

I applaud you efforts.

[clap] [thumbsup]

I'm trying to see which fun things I can do as I go. Just got word back from Jeff on the Alu Shift Drum. Looks like a no-go - he said they were often trashed after a few races, not something I'm interested in. We'll see if it would be subject to the same stresses in my motor, but I think that's going to get sidelined for now.

So, planning-wise we are still looking at a:
+  944 or 966 HC
+  VeeTwo Race Cams on Adj. Pulleys
+  Lightweight Primaries, Lightweight Flywheel, Lightened/balanced crank
+  Custom Exhaust (necessary)
+  Split Single Keihins
+  ignitech ignition with dyna coils - should be able to use the IE's air-gap pickup off the timing gear (fingers-crossed)
+  Modified frame-cross brace for intake

?  Haven't figured out forks or brakes yet (since they go together so far as the fork-bottoms are concerned)
?  Haven't figured out triple clamps (wonder if its gotta be 748/996/998 or could 749/999's bolt up, if this put damper mounting at issue...)
?  Haven't figured out damper, shock
?  Haven't figured out wheels, rear brake caliper/mount/rotor just yet. (Wondering whether i want a bracket with a speedo-pickup or not)
?  Haven't figured out tank - was looking at ETI's, but i need it to be a simple "out" port, no internal pump/etc needed.
?  Haven't figured out bodywork (tail, 2v long belly pan or oil catching 4v belly pan with individual mounts, "headlight" fairing, sans headlight - may stick a headlight in one of the air ducts though, run a tail with lights so its "street legal")
?  Haven't figured out wiring yet (going to do my own 'harness' - i like the idea of the motogadget m-unit)

Not sure what I'm forgetting. Plan on taking my time with each part, that allows me to get it right, have it powdercoated or painted the way I'd like, and get a few more Ti bolts in assembly so its as light as it could be.

According to Bikez.com,

Dry Weight for a 2002 748 was 432 lbs / 97.0 hp / 53.8 ft-lbs

2002 M900ie came in at 416 lbs / 78.0 hp / 53.8 ft-lbs

I'm hoping for sub-400 lbs, quasi-street legal, and mid-90's hp, and superbike geometry. I am hoping to be able to give a good run against most middleweight Ducati superbikes (rider skills being equivalent). I'm certainly not gunning to be faster than an 848, its weight is at 370, 134 hp, 70 ft-lbs. Sheesh!

Quote from: a m on April 23, 2010, 01:39:25 PM
?  Haven't figured out triple clamps (wonder if its gotta be 748/996/998 or could 749/999's bolt up, if this put damper mounting at issue...)

749/999 and 848/1098 have a 1/4" shorter stem.  Looks like you have the non-eccentric headstock, I have an upper and lower for that unit, PM if you like

Ooh, very interesting. I'll check in with you soon. Need to see if my ol' buddies at IMA SrL can whip up some beefy billet stuff too. That, and I need to do some reading about offsets to see what I want for a mostly-track toy.

Seems like a lot of guys really like the 27mm offset for the track, mine are stock pieces, 36mm?

Wow, I just found this thread! This is very similar to a build I started a while back but have put on hold because of a cross country move.

I picked up a 900 motor and various 748 parts. I'm not sure why you're having a mounting issue, my motor bolted into my frame no problem:

(http://infliction.org/wayot/bike/motor_test_fit.jpg)

I did notice the difference in swingarm mounting and subsequent case width. It sounds like you're thinking of putting the 900 internals into 748 cases?

I picked up a set of 748 cases on the cheap to examine that possibility.

I'm definitely tracking this build. I'm not sure how much help I can be - you seem further along at this point than I am. :)

The issue I found was not with the motor mount holes, but with the swingarm pivot holes lining up from the frame to the engine - the M900's holes were too high by a smidge.

my 748 cases are visible lower on the faces where the pivot hole is machined. Its like an oval, and on the Monster's cases the hole is at the top of the oval, and on the SBK's, its at the bottom.  Without throwing the swingarm pivot "axle" through, the frame and motor had bolted together just fine.

Problem is, I've run out of funds for a bit so things will slow down. The truck I drive ('01 Tahoe with plenty more than 200,000mi that I lovingly call Big Red. Or the Big Red Death Sled) had some ignition issues crop up. which prompted not only new wires and plugs but while i was crawling around the insides of this fine General Motors vehicle, I decided that since I liked the "oomph" that DynaCoils gave my monster, I could probably find something similar for the truck. And I did. Problem was, they weren't as cheap as a pair of dynacoils - especially when there are 8 of them.

Which is fine, I have some hands-on work to do now, like prepare to move things from one set of cases to the other. Go through and make a long list of needed bearings throughout, etc.  Do some more reading about the setups of the insides of the motors and the chassis of the superbike. Still need to learn about doing the air-gap sensor as the ignition pickup from the timing gear, and investigate the MotoGadget M-Unit for a "fuse box" like device, and decide if i want to put taillights and a headlight on it to run on the streets now and again. I much like the idea of a race-fairing, with a projector light of some type stuffed into the air duct opening. Conveniently hiding the wiring in the air duct as well.

Ah yes - I did notice this as well. The cases on the SBK motors are narrower where the swingarm is as well as being lower.

My plan was to grind the cases down to the proper size and drill the pivot point hole larger, then add an offset-drilled insert. Or something to that effect.

I thought about adding the 900 motor internals to the 748 cases but I'm not 100% sure of the differences. The water jackets are just in the heads, right? Maybe it would be a direct bolt in scenario.

Are you planning on doing fuel injection? I was going to do split-style FCRs to mitigate some of the clearance issues in the frame, but that cross brace would still need to be modified or removed. Still, it's similar to the 888 vs Monster setup. The 888 had the cross brace and the Monster didn't. Both are still safe. ;)

Wow, another one!  I think your idea on the offset insert is a good one.  Mine was machined down to SBK width and the lower mounting hole ovaled out but it originally had nothing else, I like the idea of the insert and may make one before reassembly.  I'll post a pic of the cross brace later that may help both of you.

yes please!

Cell pic, but you get the idea.  This setup does clear the stock SS TB's
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/BifPib/IMG00081-20100427-2031.jpg)

Interesting! One question - are you going fuel injected or carbureted? The stock cross brace looks like it holds something - I don't have a stock 748 to check. :) I *think* it held the coils. But maybe they can be relocated?

As for the pivot point - you oval-ed out the hole and left it as it? Have you mounted the swingarm? Is there too much play there? My thought was just to get a solid steel or aluminum lug and stick it in the oval-ed out hole, and then drill the proper hole for the pivot bolt.

Once I get my parts back from storage on the west coast I can start my project again. :)

I'm going to be putting the coils right the heck up around the headstock. That's the plan currently at least. Mine will be carbed.

Looks like the hole things been chopped out and replacement tubing has been welded in. That's probably my plan too. Get all the necessary ingredients, see how much i have to cut, check clearances, cut, assemble without cross braces, mock up where braces would go under "full assembly", and disassemble for welding 'em in.

@ato
Yes it's all been removed and replaced

@Christian
It will be fi.  The coils were there but I have a battery box to hang them on now.  Yes, the pivot was ovaled and ran as is for 3,000 miles by the PO.

Here's an interesting, perhaps humorous tidbit.

The frame I have is bare. None of the small necessary hinges or anything that bolts to it is on either the frame or subframe.

So I thought, I'll eventually need to get things like the seat hinge bracket and latch, and the related parts. I was playing around on eBay, hoping for a gem and I found an ad by Motorize.de --> A machined latch which doesn't use the hinge pins that the OEM model uses, supposed to make swaps a breeze. Well, I figured since I didn't have any hinge at all, and this would do the entire job and was factory new, might as well give it a go.

So I emailed, bargained a bit, requested the seat latch "male" end as well. Saw that they had billet rear brake master cylinder mounts - wanted one of those too. Thought that was "plenty" seeing as how I am taking a bit of a gamble across the pond with a parts supplier I've never done business with before. Email communications were good, but you just never know.

Here's the part I was looking at:

(http://images.motorize.de/garagesale/ducatisea-1267135639-627.jpg)

Well, a week or two goes by, and I hadn't received the parts - but I still had not begun to worry. Then, yesterday, while sitting in a pile of papers about 2' high, reading over various construction law contract provisions and their exceptions (No Damages for Delay Clauses, etc), I get an email - there's a package for me in the Registrar's office of the law school.

...What?

So I wander over to that building, and lo-and-behold, there's a box with about 50 stamps on it, from Germany. The address it had been mailed to was my email signature block. Mind you, there's no actual address in my email signature. The closest thing to it is the school name, school of law, and Dallas, TX. More like an identifier as to who is the sender of the email, certainly no mailing address.

Yet our US Postal Service was able to get it to me somehow. The lady at the Registrar's office, with a bit of laughter in her voice says "You know we closed down the student post office some years ago...", to which I respond "Never knew there was one, look at the address!" - and she does, and begins to laugh.

To wrap up this long story, our post office can get you a package of parts from Germany even with the least descriptive address ever, Motorize.de is legitimate, their parts are nice, and somehow I was not clear about where the parts should have been shipped to!

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

I won't hesitate to recommend them,
eBay store here: http://stores.ebay.com/Ducati-Aprilia-Cagiva-parts (http://stores.ebay.com/Ducati-Aprilia-Cagiva-parts)
website here: http://motorize.de/ (http://motorize.de/)

Good story! And cool part! The quick-release seat hinge is definitely something I was thinking of in the back of my mind.

Any new progress on your build?

Started looking at how the 'airbox' and frame will be modified for the 2v carb parts. I'm thinking about running an airbox and the ram-air tubes to the front fairing to (a) provide some air to the rear cylinder and (b) provide a place to hide some wires.

Beyond that, nothing really. Picked up a SSS rearstand since I didn't have one.

dude you should have said something. . .

i have a sss rear stand that i would have sold way way way cheap (it has no wheels but can be repaired)

I got mine for about $60, so I didn't break the bank. However, duly noted - I should post up if there's something I need before droppin' cash (especially big cash) on it!

Yeah, the airbox has 4 bolts, two of which are on the cross bar that would need to be modified to support the 900's carbs.

My plan is to do pod filter but the airbox is integral to the look of the bike so you can't just ditch it.

Quote from: Christian on May 04, 2010, 08:46:15 AM
but the airbox is integral to the look of the bike so you can't just ditch it.

Sure you can

(http://www.duccutters.com/PaulStrickland/Originals/PaulStrickland1.jpg)

That thing has the coolest seat.

seat or tail? the seat is just a sergeant replacement

tail is what i meant.

Quote from: 1KDS on May 04, 2010, 03:51:59 PM
Sure you can

That works for a naked bike, but not when you want something that's going to look more or less like this:

(http://www.infliction.org/random/superbike.jpg)

I gots a question:

When doing split singles set up, where does one acquire the short manifolds? I've read that they are Malossi manifolds.

From Chris Kelley's DucatiTech site, I also read that you want to use two "rears" - anybody know the Part No.? I couldn't seem to find it stated on the web.

Site: http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/maint/rebuild/index.html (http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/maint/rebuild/index.html)

QuoteI've got the Single FCR41s, short intakes, large K&Ns, new valves, bearings throughout, belts.
...
I test fitted the Malossi intake manifolds and found that you want to use two rear manifolds with the FCR41 singles. The "front" manifold has a sharp bend that won't work with the downdraft FCR, but the "rear" manifold works perfectly with the downdraft carb on the front, horizontal cylinder head.

So, clearly its a downdraft FCR for the horizontal cylinder, and a side-draft for the vertical cylinder, but where does one acquire the part no. for the "rear" Malossi manifold?

I know one could take OEM manifolds and chop them up, but I don't have OEM carb manifolds, just the FI manifolds, which I don't think would be useful for this. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

From my limited abilities at Net-Fu, I found Bevel Heaven providing a kit for Pasos, but I'm not sure if that would bolt up. From the picture, shown below, it looks like I'd need two of the one on the right - 02 4026:

http://shop.bevelheaven.com/detail.aspx?ID=914 (http://shop.bevelheaven.com/detail.aspx?ID=914)

(http://shop.bevelheaven.com/images/in-man-malossi-paso.jpg)

Why not just cut up a cheap used superbike airbox and reuse only the side panel portion using dzus and a tab welded to the frame.  If you search you'll find some of the carbon air boxes had removable sides.  Maybe you could find a wrecked box like that, but with decent sides?

I got the airbox for pennies, we're good there. On to the meat&potatoes!

I got the nuts off the timing gear and primary gear, and once those are pulled, the cases will be split so the crank may be sent off.

Which has me "thinking ahead" :)

Quote from: a m on May 06, 2010, 11:34:53 AM
I gots a question:

When doing split singles set up, where does one acquire the short manifolds? I've read that they are Malossi manifolds.

From Chris Kelley's DucatiTech site, I also read that you want to use two "rears" - anybody know the Part No.? I couldn't seem to find it stated on the web.

Site: http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/maint/rebuild/index.html (http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/maint/rebuild/index.html)
So, clearly its a downdraft FCR for the horizontal cylinder, and a side-draft for the vertical cylinder, but where does one acquire the part no. for the "rear" Malossi manifold?

I know one could take OEM manifolds and chop them up, but I don't have OEM carb manifolds, just the FI manifolds, which I don't think would be useful for this. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

I thought Chris could put together a kit with split 41FCRs, manifolds, cables etc?

Not on the website anymore. I'll have to contact him directly, a member on the Ducati.ms sight posted up that he had quit doing this. (Much to my dismay).

Have you contacted Ducati Kaemna in Germany?

http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/index.htm (http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/index.htm)

They have some other Malossi items.

Will do. I've contacted them before about fitment of mag alt covers and they were very responsive through email. Needless to say, I moved their bookmark near the top of that folder - I was impressed.

Update

This project is still alive.

Billet 30mm offset triples are "on their way". This puts at the point of "rolling chassis", almost. Here's where I'm at:

• Frame with Aluminum Sub-frame, connected with titanium bolts
• Black powdercoated Swingarm with titanium swingarm pivot
• AMS billet ride height rod, OEM SBK rocker, titanium lower shock pivot, rocker pivot, and rocker bolts
• Temporary OEM shock - planned: Ohlins/Penske
• Temporary 848 forks - planned: 1198 showa w/ ncr lowers+ohlins internals
• Ti motor mounts (nuts, washers & rods)
• Carbon headlight bucket
• AMS / Ducati Corse 3-pos (6-hole) billet rearsets & Ducati Corse heelguards
• AMS rear brake caliper bracket, OEM eccentric hub, axle, ti eccentric pinch bolts
• Motorize.de billet rear brake master bracket, AMS / Ducati Corse billet rear brake lever, Ti pivot bolt
• Blackstone Tek 5-spoke Carbon Fiber Wheels
• temporary "mock-up" tank, bodywork, airbox, etc

Motor parts

• VeeTwo Lightened, straight-cut primary gears (primary, driven, and oil pump gears)
• VeeTwo Billet, Adj. Cam Shaft Pulleys
• DP Billet Pulleys (for layshaft)
• VeeTwo "Race" Cams for 900, valves
• MBP Collets

---

Planned Motor Parts left to acquire:

• 94mm or 95mm Pistons (Pistal, JE, or Mahle). Goal is 95mm for a "966" SBK, using modified 996 logos
• Lightened, balanced crank
• The ol' port and polish
• Factory Pro Shift Kit
• Febur / NCR oil cooler
• Keihin FCR41 Split Singles with a few modifications
• Ignitech TCIP4, using layshaft pickup with tachometer/shift light output
• Mag alt & clutch side covers
• Ti case joining bolts - the big ones that join the two halves

(By the way, shout out with reviews, comments, suggestions for plans, as we are in the 'gathering bits' stage)

Chassis, Brakes, Bodywork Plans:

• Single HID projector through race fairing, mounted on CF HL bucket I have, with ballast sitting next to it
• Brembo monoblock radial calipers. Billet if budget allows.New T-Drive rotors if available
• CF bodywork - single piece sides, race front
• ETI tank, or Alu tank, or CF tank
• Motogadget or 'Race' dash with giant tachometer display and minimal speedo
• NCR clipons? Perhaps CF bars
• GP or RCS Master Cylinders, Folding Levers
• Ohlins adj steering damper

did you buy those bst's used or new? are you doing the pairs to split mod? i told taft, but i was a very sad day earlier this week. there was a complete split 41 set-up w/ manis FS on ebay for $750 and sold before i found it.

No, using some dirtbike keihin mods to the split singles, buyin' 'em split to begin with, not banked.

what are the benefits of using splits to paired other than PITA tuning. i know using shorter manifolds affects the power curve. i remember when i was going to use ITB's on my vw, using short to long runners, one would benefits torque and high rpm's.

here's the listing. this is the first set of splits i've seen pics of. i thought you could use as reference.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130423812063&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_1182 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130423812063&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_1182)

Short manifolds = most top end power

(note, this is a track-mostly bike, so that is ideal)

That's a hell of a build sheet, can't wait to see the progress.

Since we're spending your money, I'd say Pistal or Mahle slugs.
Forget the JE's.

That's what I was leaning towards, especially since Chris K has the Mahle's in 95mm, and they are box-in-box like Pistals (don't know if JE's are).

Here's pistals next to OEM (for an 848):
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/3123271212_e3ecae679e.jpg)

And the Mahle's:
(http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/img/mahle_2v_95.jpg)

The 92mm JE I've got are old-school; full skirt, no box-in-box.

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does "box-in-box" mean when referring to pistons?  From Speedog's post can I assume it has something to do with the piston skirt?

Also, why are the Pistals such a pretty cool of silver and the Mahles are darker?  Do the Mahles have a different coating?

Box in Box is the bracing on the bottom - it is shaped like a # sign, rather than just the two bars the pin runs through.

Pistals are machined, I know that, I do not know about the Mahle's coating (yet)

Quote from: Travman on August 30, 2010, 03:11:57 PM
Please forgive my ignorance, but what does "box-in-box" mean when referring to pistons?  From Speedog's post can I assume it has something to do with the piston skirt

i'm glad you asked, i was wondering the same. after looking at the pics i assumed the box in box was referring to the additional brace that runs parallel to the wrist pin.

I don't know what the coating is on the Mahles or Pistals.

box-in-box:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4943713416_895e4daf0d.jpg)

Quote from: Speeddog on August 30, 2010, 03:38:10 PM
I don't know what the coating is on the Mahles or Pistals.

box-in-box:

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4943713416_895e4daf0d.jpg)

ahhhhhhhh says the blind man. i was my MAC had paint. i guess that's why they have photoshop.

Quote from: a m on August 30, 2010, 03:14:15 PM
Box in Box is the bracing on the bottom - it is shaped like a # sign, rather than just the two bars the pin runs through.

Pistals are machined, I know that, I do not know about the Mahle's coating (yet)

i know what the coating on the pistons was for, but not the name and such. here's a little reading for you A M.
http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF9/CurrentBaseLink/W276RJYM064MARSEN (http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF9/CurrentBaseLink/W276RJYM064MARSEN)

i'm glad you updated your blog. your making it hard for me to stalk you.

sorry all!

I have been busy with it, but there is some other "doings" going about:

My Monster 900 is getting upgraded SBK forks with Ohlins internals, AMS billet 65mm-40mm caliper adapters, ISR 6-piston, 6-pad Billet Monoblock calipers, another set of IMA triples with 53/53 boring, 53mm clipons, TPO's lightweight front axle, titanium caliper pinch/bracket bolts, titanium axle pinch bolts, titanium axle nut, and BST front wheel.

With that said, I've been working with Allan and Noah at TPO Parts pretty closely with some fasteners and such for the project.


We've got lots more titanium in the garage now, Jako Motorsport adjustable short intake manifolds (pictures to come), Triples are on the way, 1198 TiNi forks are here, CM Composit swingarm guard, carbon undertail, and a lead on the rest of the carbon fiber bodywork.


We are getting close to "labor only" left for what is required to make it work. Sure, I still haven't sat down and discussed brakes with myself yet, nor have I found a thorough exhaust guy to do some lightweight SS or Ti bending for a good 2-1 or 2-1-2 system.

Still considering carbonpartz.net cans for the project

Oh, forgot to say that I have talked with ETI about a fuel-cel specific for this application too!

Did you end up getting the IMA triples?
What would the fuel cell look like?
Theo's got some CMC rotors for sale...

oooh, need to check with him about those.


I've had IMA triples on my M900 for awhile, and instead of doing the bore/shim for the SBK forks, I'm going to order up a proper set of 53/53 IMA triples.

The Fuel Cel is going to look just like an oem tank, weigh about 5 lbs less itself, but weigh less again because it won't have an internal fuel pump and all the fixings on the inside - he said no biggie on making a block-off for an outflow nozzle

I meant the triples for the sbk,
the fuel cell is intriguing

I think I'm going for the Corse shape, which has the dent in the top for your chin when you are goin' soopa-doopa fast (which I may have as an indicated speed on the dial).


Our dear friends at Motowheels are helping hook me up with some billet triples for the non-adjustable steering head, 30mm offset.

If you aren't on Patrick and Emmanuele's email list, I can forward you their upcoming SBK triple design. Its got all sorts of holes in it and such

The short list of *very* helpful people with this project, so far, include:

Allan & Noah @ TPO
Ed @ Motowheels
Chris @ CA-Cycleworks
John Harvey @ ETI
Julius Ilmberger
Jeff Grieco @ Brocks
Chantal @ BST
David @ Spiegler

I have given up on Rene @ RaceBolts for Titanium Fasteners all together now. He's not fulfilled an order from almost 6 months ago, and has decided to stop responding to emails. Pity, I have a lot more bolts, both titanium and aluminum, that I'll need.

In Rene's place, I'll source bolts from BallerBolts, as that keeps biz within the board, and TPO, ProBolt, and MetTec (haven't used them yet, but they have a straightforward website with some things I need).

Still in the parts gathering phase, I'm still investigating getting Ceramic Hybrid Bearings to replace all internal motor bearings for weight savings, lower heat, less rolling resistance, but emphasis is on weight savings. I've read that hybrid is the way to go in heat-applications, like within a motor, so there's not issues related to differing heat deformation/expansion rates.

Quote from: a m on September 27, 2010, 03:16:06 PM
If you aren't on Patrick and Emmanuele's email list, I can forward you their upcoming SBK triple design. Its got all sorts of holes in it and such

I've just got some stockers at the powder coater right now, think I'll stick with the stock offset, I can always flip the eccentric

.... nothing doin' on the motor so far. picked up a fixxer upper old 900 for the wife to learn to ride on, so its taking up a lot of my time and available money.

but, its not all at a stop. so far we have acquired these pieces since the last update:
Carbon Dream LH and RH fairings and belly pan (obviously carbon fiber)
Sebimoto Carbon Fiber Air Box and Air Ducts
NCR Clipons
NCR Ride Height Rod

I mock assembled the bodywork, attaching the carbon air ducts to the carbon airbox and the carbon headlight mount. Looks really good, need to find a carbon front headlight fairing, but need to find money for it first.

The motor still sits in pieces on the shelves in the garage for now.  :/  Its going to be a long term project. I have considered getting an 848 motor and shoe-horning that in.

Quote from: a m on December 05, 2010, 08:56:15 AM
I have considered getting an 848 motor and shoe-horning that in.

Boooooooooooooooo

i'd make it a dry clutch.... and maybe put 1098 or 1198 pistons and cylinders on it for a short stroke 1040 or 1080...

I bet that would make some torque...

good news, bad news, who's to say?

with a somewhat heavy heart, today i bid farewell to the idea of putting a 900 motor into a late 748 frame.


The bad news is that I'm pretty much taking this project and not moving it to a backburner, but taking it off the stove altogether and putting it back in the freezer for awhile.

The good news is that the 900 motor parts I have acquired "just happen to work" in my M900. Likewise, things like the v-series heads and IE cams may (much later) end up in the second m900 i have in the garage that my wife is learning to roll around on. Its got w-series heads, and this will be a nice improvement. the cylinders will get bored and replated for 94mm pistons and will go in my bike for a 944, and things like the bottom end may get parted out where profitable or turned in to art where not profitable.

All is not lost. The project remains a nice project for another day. The other 2V superbike threads had me considered cost efficiency, or bang-for-buck motor selection. I like the gonzo parts for sure, but i don't want to chase performance and sacrifice so much reliability that the bike won't really ever work. So eventually I'll be looking for an 1100DS HYM motor, as that is quite straightforward, and do some basics to it (cams, flywheel, slipper, mag and carbon parts) and call it a day.

I'll post some pictures up this afternoon (hopefully) of where it is at currently. The short list:

Carbon air box
Carbon air runners
Carbon headlight mount
Carbon LH, RH Fairings
Carbon bellypan
Carbon undertail
Carbon tail
Carbon swingarm guard
Carbon corse-style heel guards
Carbon chainguard
Carbon BST rear wheel

billet DucShop 30mm 848 triples
billet rear caliper mount
billet corse style rearset brackets
billet Ducabike Ohlins steering damper mount
billet DP steering stem nut
billet DP fork adjusters
billet quick-release seat mount
billet rear master cylinder/lever bracket
billet rear brake levers
billet gp shift levers
billet madduc seat latch
billet TPO front axle

billet/ti NCR ride height rod
billet/ti NCR clipons

ti front axle nut
ti rear axle wheel nut
ti rear axle sprocket nut
ti rear rotor bolts
ti eccentric pinch bolts
ti rocker pivot
ti upper shock pin
ti upper rideheight rod pin
ti shock/rideheight rod pivot
ti swingarm pivot
ti motor mounts
ti front and rear caliper mount bolts
ti rearset bolts
ti airbox bolts
ti upper and lower triple pinch bolts
ti subframe bolts

aluminum monoposto subframe
ohlins steering damper
1098 showa forks
craptastic 748 showa shock

For the "new plan" (plan c or d...)
if somebody can help me with the short list of parts i'm going to need, I'm going to hang it in the garage and slowly whittle it down.

motor
injectors
coils
wiring harness
reg/rec
ecu
fuel pump

since i'm having an off-day, point out what i'm obviously omitting (besides gas, battery, spark plugs, motor oil, muffler bearings, headlight fluid, and flux capacitor)

Quote from: a m on January 14, 2011, 01:09:25 PM
good news, bad news, who's to say?
So eventually I'll be looking for an 1100DS HYM motor, as that is quite straightforward, and do some basics to it (cams, flywheel, slipper, mag and carbon parts) and call it a day.

amen to that brother. that's about how i'm feeling now. for the price of a 966 rebuild and DS head conversion, that's 1100 price range.

Why are you getting side tracked?  All of the good threads aren't having good endings.  You should find a good deal on a 900 or any air cooled motor and at least get your project rideable. Once you have it running you can wait for your 1100 to come along.  The interim motor could be sold later.

http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/ne_gebr_engines.htm (http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/ne_gebr_engines.htm)

Photos:

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTOqYptUhmI/AAAAAAAAF7I/9XJDeoT3oIE/s400/IMG_3107.JPG)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTOqXzPHd0I/AAAAAAAAF7A/dgyO-lxdy7M/s400/IMG_3122.JPG)(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTOqYd0BGDI/AAAAAAAAF7E/R_XFw_VGRlg/s400/IMG_3123.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTO1mXgoFXI/AAAAAAAAF74/6l3D4Azj2QQ/s400/IMG_3108.JPG)

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTO1m6kDygI/AAAAAAAAF78/b9b7_ZwFM1o/s400/IMG_3109.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTO1nStohXI/AAAAAAAAF8A/aJENWwJHV_w/s400/IMG_3110.JPG)

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TTO2XJS91AI/AAAAAAAAF8U/9jtTMoEnbC4/s400/IMG_3113.JPG)

The tank is orange and the front fender is red - kind of like placeholders. I'm going for FrootLoops sponsorship.*



*not really.

Mmmmm, and the new 1000-era 2V engines LOVE FCRs...   [evil]

hahahaha