So I'm at a deadlock. I have narrowed down my search to the Mazdaspeed 3 and the VW GTI 4 Door.
The GTI is has a more refined luxury feeling to it, but substantially less raw power. I ride is very smooth, it handles the roads quite well, but I can't help but think the MS3 would be more fun because of the extra torque and HP.
The MS3 is a little more chintzy, and I really don't like the spotted red interior they put in it. But it's a hell of a ride and the handling is very sharp and precise. And did I mention more power, an extra 63 HP and 80 ft lbs. And cheaper.
So what do you think hive mind? I've had a Mazda 3 and 6 now, and have been happy, but never owned a VW. Any FHE with German build VWs?
Thanks.
18/25 mpg vs 21/31 mpg, on top of which the GTI is a much nicer ride to actually "ride" in... Plus, if the power deficit is a huge issue, more tuner crap for the VW than the Mazda.
you can chip the GTI and get a instant 50 hp since its such a detuned engine.
I was considering a Speed3 and GTI but settled on a 08 WRX STI and I couldn't be happier.
No torque steering to have to deal with, better handling, better all weather car, more HP ect.
You cant go wrong with a speed3 or GTI though. Both or really nice cars and handle extremely well.
I figured you could get more power out of the GTI, so I was wondering if putting in a chip, or intake, or exhaust could have an affect on the factory warranty. It seems like at best, if something went wrong, it could become an argument at the dealership. I know that they have to prove that the upgrades directly caused whatever problem you're trying to have fixed. But with such a large increase in power, they could blame almost anything in the drive-train on it. This has been one of my concerns, so I figure if I want the power, get the one that has it from the factory.
Thanks.
1st...the new generation VW's, you don't chip them, you flash them....REVO is the best and most popular ( look at vwvortex.com for endless threads regarding this)...but a dealership can in fact tell if the car has been flashed in the encoding sequences.
2nd...technically speaking...ANY car that is modified can be singled out by a dealership in some variant fashion for not honoring warranty ( not voiding it-THAT is something only a manufacturer representative can do after inspection and then flagging the VIN in the system) oriented repairs, especially if said modification in any way shape or form can affect the issue. Warranty repairs are done at the discretion of the dealer based on the guidelines supplied to them from the manufacturer. If a dealer gets audited by the manufacturer, it is their ass and money on the line that they are potentially losing in reimbursment if they deviate or bend certain rules oriented in and around those procedures. This is where, to a certain degree, establishing a relationship LONGTERM with your service persons plays into your benefit. If you should happen to perform modifications, they can choose to massage a repair order to get things covered IF they should be somehow involved and turn that blind eye. We have a few customers here that have done some mods to their cars, and do ALL of their service work here, so we take care of them in regards to when their car needs something warranty related. They have spend a fair amount of money and in the end, it is about customer service, when you have the plan that this is a long term relationship.
3rd is a mere suggestion FWIW, in making the decision about living with the car. You test drove each for what...30 mins to maybe 2 hours tops?....there are things that WILL annoy you long term that you won't see in that short of a time span. Do a serach at the rental car companies and see if they offer the exact models you are looking at for to rent for a weekend. To me it'd be worth spending a hundred or so bucks to prevent having to spend thousands on a car that annoys you long term, even if it is the little idiosyncrosies. If the rental car companies are a no-go and since you say you have a couple of Madza's already, go to your service department and see if they have THE car you are looking at in their loaner fleet, and then talk to the service manager or the sales manager about renting it over a weekend s a test to see if you'de like to purchase. Do the sme at a VW dealer, and test drive the VW over a weekend. Some of the intial benefits may weight in as not as important and some of the insignifigant things will pop up more prominantly and change your POV on certain things as far as livability long term.
check out the owner reviews for both cars at edmunds.com, they give a good idea how a given car works in the real world
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews.html (http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews.html)
Used EVO9, done
You didn't ask, but buying a brand new anything is a poor decision (IMHO). Let someone else take the 5-10k initial hit, then buy it. It's not like the interest rates are poor on anything at the moment.
/end thread
;D
Quote from: TAftonomos on April 08, 2010, 04:14:01 AM
Used EVO9, done
You didn't ask, but buying a brand new anything is a poor decision (IMHO). Let someone else take the 5-10k initial hit, then buy it. It's not like the interest rates are poor on anything at the moment.
/end thread
;D
might be a good idea with a well maintained luxury car, but a car like the evo, the previous owner more then likely beat the snot out of it, and now warranty is almost, or already is over. nothing in the world makes people less happy then to make payments and repair bills.
I own a repair shop, I know what happens to cars, if I'm not looking for a >$1000 beater I buy a new car.
get the GTI, revo flash and a sps, you can set it in "force to stock" mode before taking it in for repairs, the dealer will never be able to tell there is software, if it doesn't feel faster there not going to spend the time checking it doesn't pay anything and techs don't like working for free. the GTI is a great car, and software is 50+ hp and 90+ ft/lbs.
I say go for the GTI with reflash. My buddy just did this and the car is waaaayyyy faster and much more fun. Better quality and better techs. You will pay more for repairs after it is out of warranty so be aware of that.
blah blah blah...find a good example that is well maintained, and save 10K. I had a performance shop for 5 something years before I sold it. If the car is taken care of (easy to tell), then why worry. If you keep a car for 10 years, I can understand buying new, but for someone like me who gets bored after a year with it, it make zero sense. I despise FWD cars with a passion anyway, which is why they both loose in my book. That and after working at a VW/BMW dealer for a year before venturing out on my own, I'd rather drive pretty much anything before I bought a VW.
FWD FTL!
(http://phors.locost7.info/images/07image05.gif)
and
(http://www.itsonlikedonkeykong.net/myspace/jelly/fwd_sucks.jpg)
AWD>RWD>WWD.
/end thread for me!
haven't been in a new vw since my mkIV, but I'm a fan of german cars in general, so i'd probably get it over the new 3
Quote from: TAftonomos on April 08, 2010, 04:14:01 AM
Used EVO9, done
You didn't ask, but buying a brand new anything is a poor decision (IMHO). Let someone else take the 5-10k initial hit, then buy it. It's not like the interest rates are poor on anything at the moment.
/end thread
;D
Uh yeah-plus +11tybillion.
I mean, right now, the 328i no longer meets our needs. Paid 35k ish-would be happy (and lucky, IMO) to get 15k. Book value is 17k. It sucks, in so many ways.
Seriously-I would never buy new. It's a waste of money-even if someone hooned it mercilessly it'd still cost less to have a mechanic inspect it and fix every item that showed any wear whatsoever than to buy it new.
Quote from: MrIncredible on April 08, 2010, 07:31:47 AM
Uh yeah-plus +11tybillion.
I mean, right now, the 328i no longer meets our needs. Paid 35k ish-would be happy (and lucky, IMO) to get 15k. Book value is 17k. It sucks, in so many ways.
Seriously-I would never buy new. It's a waste of money-even if someone hooned it mercilessly it'd still cost less to have a mechanic inspect it and fix every item that showed any wear whatsoever than to buy it new.
and then it hits, sludge, previous owner used cheap oil, under the cap looked clean but the crank case is a mess.
driving along, oil pressure light.. wtf is that? damn why don't you run any more?
get it towed and find out you now need $7k in work on your "previously loved" car.. oh, but it was pressure washed so nice I couldn't tell..
There are only two ways I would buy a used car, CPO or actually know the previous owner. take some corner sales lots word for it and it'll cost ya! they pick the turd up at auction, beat too hell, clean them up and make them look real nice, maybe even fix a few of the big things, wash off any signs of oil leaks, mark them up $5k and pawn them off on the first unsuspecting idiot. Trust me I see it all the time, performance cars are really, really bad about this.
Yeah-don't you work at a repair shop? You're obviously not going to see the problem free examples.
Also, my suggestion was to have a real live mechanic check out anything bought used. Perhaps I was unclear, but this should be prior to purchase. What is wrong with that?
Quote from: MrIncredible on April 08, 2010, 11:18:06 AM
Yeah-don't you work at a repair shop? You're obviously not going to see the problem free examples.
Also, my suggestion was to have a real live mechanic check out anything bought used. Perhaps I was unclear, but this should be prior to purchase. What is wrong with that?
I see it often enough I suggest against it. sucks giving some one the bad news on the car they think they got such a great deal on, or even paid a little more for because it looks so nice and clean. its a crap shoot, if your willing to take it. luxury cars tend to fair a bit better in this game because they loose more off the bat and are more often well maintained, family cars are middle of the road, some are ok, some are beat, performance cars are almost all ways driven hard, modified poorly or poorly maintained, its a pretty good chance a used performance car is gonna give you more problems.
used car guys are sleaze bags. sorry but its true. you've gotta look some one in the eye and lie to them.
all they have to do is clear the faults, pressure wash it, run a engine flush if it looks dirty, then talk fast and tell you how good of a deal it is.
no lights on, and some faults, especially the expensive ones ( like catalyst efficiency) take a while to reset.
you can't see some of the leaks, because now its pressure washed.
and they've run a engine flush and change the oil, looks clean right under the cap but you don't know whats waiting for you when the sludge it didn't get starts coming off and sticking in the pick up tube.
I can tell you how the c.v's look, how the suspension feels, how the trans drives, look at the belts and hoses and tell you about unusual sounds, but I can't predict catalyst faults or the possibility of crap plugging up the pump.
you've just spent a grip on your new pride and joy, only to find out as time goes on, the instrument panel lights up like a xmas tree, it leaves spots like a harley, and now you need $2k+ to get it to where you wanted it in the first place.
VW GTD FTW!
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review)
Quote from: ducatiz on April 08, 2010, 12:21:41 PM
VW GTD FTW!
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review)
HAWT!
oh, and as a side note... buying new was the only way I could get manual transmission for the car I have now
Wow. Thanks for all the input. I fully understand that I'm going to take a large hit driving a new car off the lot. However, I have to agree with all the comments about performance cars being flogged and also out of warranty. I'm willing to pay the premium to get a nice warranty and the peace of mind knowing that I'll be the one doing the flogging. I bought a couple of used cars in the past, and my experience has be almost all negative, so new it is.
So it sounds like no votes for the MS3. That's what I expected, and it really has helped. I think I'm going to pick up the GTI, drive it around for a while, then decide if I want to flash.
Side-Trip:
So I've read a few threads about this, but still don't fully understand it. If the 2.0T motor in the GTI can reliably handle another 50+ HP and even more torque, then why doesn't VW sell it like that. Every other car in it's class is putting up those kind of numbers, so why not compete?
Quote from: nkryptit on April 08, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
Side-Trip:
So I've read a few threads about this, but still don't fully understand it. If the 2.0T motor in the GTI can reliably handle another 50+ HP and even more torque, then why doesn't VW sell it like that. Every other car in it's class is putting up those kind of numbers, so why not compete?
Could be a mileage issue, emissions issue, or any other number of things.
The motor can handle it-how about the brakes? Suspension? Drivetrain? Transmission? If none of those things were designed with that intent, you may see significantly shortened life of those units.
I would suggest it is a mileage issue; part of the GTI's appeal, especially over in Europe, is its blend of good sporty performance coupled with excellent fuel mileage (for a sports / performance) oriented car.
Quote from: nkryptit on April 08, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
Side-Trip:
So I've read a few threads about this, but still don't fully understand it. If the 2.0T motor in the GTI can reliably handle another 50+ HP and even more torque, then why doesn't VW sell it like that. Every other car in it's class is putting up those kind of numbers, so why not compete?
if its already tuned, how can they sell it as a tuner car?
plus, VW's at heart are supposed to be reliable, a little sporty and economical.
Quote from: nkryptit on April 08, 2010, 03:52:20 PM
So I've read a few threads about this, but still don't fully understand it. If the 2.0T motor in the GTI can reliably handle another 50+ HP and even more torque, then why doesn't VW sell it like that. Every other car in it's class is putting up those kind of numbers, so why not compete?
because it would deter from the Audi A3 sales to which that car is roughly of the same chassis and motor, but tuned with the bigger pony power from the factory!...it isn't about competing with other manufacterers in the class, but trying to keep from competing aginst themselves....kinda like Nissan trying to maintain the differences between the 350Z/370Z and the G35/G37 coupe without losing sales to themselves( in a weird kinda way).
Very good answers...Thanks Guys! I'm now trying to pit the VW and Mazda Salesmen against each other, to see if I can get the VW down to/below invoice. Any last minute suggestions?
Quote from: zooom on April 09, 2010, 02:48:15 AM
because it would deter from the Audi A3 sales to which that car is roughly of the same chassis and motor, but tuned with the bigger pony power from the factory!...it isn't about competing with other manufacterers in the class, but trying to keep from competing aginst themselves....kinda like Nissan trying to maintain the differences between the 350Z/370Z and the G35/G37 coupe without losing sales to themselves( in a weird kinda way).
interesting, that is the same reason they don't offer more Audi TDI options in the A3 line..
Quote from: ducatiz on April 09, 2010, 03:21:20 AM
interesting, that is the same reason they don't offer more Audi TDI options in the A3 line..
yup...purdy much!
Quote from: zooom on April 09, 2010, 02:48:15 AM
because it would deter from the Audi A3 sales to which that car is roughly of the same chassis and motor, but tuned with the bigger pony power from the factory!...it isn't about competing with other manufacterers in the class, but trying to keep from competing aginst themselves....kinda like Nissan trying to maintain the differences between the 350Z/370Z and the G35/G37 coupe without losing sales to themselves( in a weird kinda way).
dude, no it isn't
the A3 has exactly the same power as the GTI. the only difference is the GTI and FWD A3 has the lower emissions version, which only has a secondary air pump. absolutely no difference in power, the A3q does not have the secondary air due to space constraints. the A4 has more power, but the 2.0t in the A4 is a different engine all together.
They don't need to make high HP cars to compete, HP is just a number. they make engines with a very flexible power band and low lag, it makes for a nicer drive then high HP and lag you see in their competition.
FWIW, with software, I'm actually getting a bit better mileage then was advertised. sticker on the window said 21/28 I'm getting closer to 22/30 and better as it breaks in. but it does drink the gas if I get into the good stuff [evil]
Even though the Mazda sounds like a total hoot, based on what I've read the GTI is a phenomenal car.
It's been Automobile Magazine's Auto of the Year in 2007 and 2010 if I remember correctly.....
I picked up an Audi A3 for my wife a few weeks back. If you think the 200hp 2.0T lump is a dog I want to know what your were driving before hand. :o
You can have it flashed, as mentioned, and get 300 ft. lbs of torque and 250+ hp. It would be nice but not necessary IMHO.
I took it on the highway for the first time yesterday and the thing kicks 4 banger A$$! From 75 to 100 mph is lightning fast and buttery smooth.
I'm coming out of the 328i BMW and that is a great car. This thing holds it's own and with the exception of the front wheel drive, I'm getting used to it, I am really happy so far with the car/power plant and go kart handling.
I think the GTI is pretty much the same car. If you can get the car with DSG tranny it's a driver.
Quote from: ducatiz on April 08, 2010, 12:21:41 PM
VW GTD FTW!
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q2/2010_volkswagen_gtd_diesel-first_drive_review)
Sure would be nice if they would bring that puppy stateside.
Picked up the GTI yesterday. Loving it so far. I'm going to have to resist the need to mod it for a while, just to get a feel for what, if anything really needs to be done.
Thanks for all the input everyone, I really appreciate it! I'll post some pics when I get some good ones.
Scroll through this thread! A bunch of Audi/VW sites for info on the 2.0T and all the hop up parts.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36491.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36491.0)
I've actually decided to leave the car alone for now. Just too much stuff to consider and there is always a downside to the mod (IMHO) that I don't want to hear about from my lovely wife!!! [laugh]
Congrats on the purchase.