Ducati Monster Forum

After reading some replies to my bike, and Stu's I got to thinking while I re-valving a set of forks.. What makes a custom "Custom"

Is one off the only custom?

 If you can buy it, does that mean it isnt custom?

Is cutting off the back of your frame and bending up some crooked brackets make your bike a custom?

If you dump tons of hours into a bike in your garage, and the work is done half assed, is it more custom than a guy like Stu who has a shop and turns out nice work?

Is it custom if you pay me to build it?

How many things have to be changed on your bike to make it a custom?

If I have more one off hand made bits, does it make my bike cooler?

If you are a hack, and build a bunch of one off garbage, is your bike custom?

Is my stuff more custom because I have a wheel and a hammer and I know how to use them and do regularly?

Is it custom if the motor comes out for some reason?

Do you have the right to talk smack if your bike ISNT a custom?

I hand (re)built the frame and swingarm on my streetfighter, but is it not custom because the key surround is plastic, and not CF (Yes, had a guy say that to me, no joke.. lol)

I'm always curious to see the difference in opinion between people, garage builders and custom fabricators.

This isnt a flame, but more a curiosity.. When does a bike stop being a modified stocker and start being a custom?

My personal opinion is that custom is whatever is not usually on a given item. For example if I put termi's on my M750 that would mean my bike has been customized. To finish an item is a whole other story If you look at work like Stu does its different, Stu (and others) finish a bike. Stu takes after market items and "customizes" those and after that customizes things that are already custom and keeps going deeper. There was a great quote I heard from a great man ; "I wouldnt work if it werent for my ability to finish things." (stated by Stu himself) REALLY take in that statement... People like Stuart are artists because they see what we don't. They can turn a blank canvas into the Mona Lisa, an M750 into a cafe racer ect.. I guess what Im trying to say is that there is a difference between customizing and finishing if you need proof look at your bike and then look at one of Stu's....

There isn't a clean answer for me.  

That said, in my head, I make some distinction between customized (i.e. modded) versus custom, but it's pretty vague.  I think of something as custom where it has some fabrication to it more than just a lot of bolt-on parts from the motowheels catalog.  But there's not an easy line to draw and that particular definition is not a hard and fast rule.  Now that I think about it, I don't use the word custom much.  I talk about how modded or how customized a bike is.   It's about how changed the bike is, not about whether it's modded or a custom.

Then again, if I had to put bikes the category of modded v. custom, there are some bikes fall into the "custom" category for me, many of which were built by professional builders.  The bikes tend to have their own name and to be one-offs.  They have a particular vision (even if its not mine) and they get it right.  Your Streetfighter, certain builds by Stuart, Mark Savory's Black Fog and DesmoDevil line, Andi's Malatia, Turbomonster and others come to mind.  For example, I think I probably describe my M1000SS as a custom bike.  And others, like that Douchebag-painted M1100S or the Motowheels catalog Carbon Monster that won the last Monster Challenge, don't strike me as "custom" and I wouldn't describe them that way.  I can't explain it better than that.    

I don't know if that helps answer your question.  

IMO...

if it's done from a catalog it isn't custom.

It's all based on each individuals definition of the words:  Custom  --and--  Customized.

FOR ME:

Customized is stuff generally applied from a catalog or website, parts that have been removed, parts which there has been a color change and 'approved' modifications.

Custom is a whole other world for me.  That term I reserve for bikes that have a single congruent theme running through EVERYTHING.

Nothing wrong with a well-ridden, much-loved Customized bike running around.  Owner is happy, bikes' being ridden...  The Customized Garage-Queens piss me off...


But, this is all my opinion and you know the adage about opinions...

Does accumulating layers of road grime thereby mildly altering the silhouette of the bike make it a custom?  ;D

Pretty good explanation right there.

Meh, it's just a label.  Call it what you want.   Some people will accept it, and others will take exception.  :)

If I want a custom suit, and the tailor pulls one off the rack to hem mod, I'm walking out of his store.    ;D

But while we're trying to clear things up I'd like to set people straight on what a mod is.  Cause if I see rim strips, or a carbon tank protector, on someones mod list one more time I'm going to lose it!   ;D

maybe its like in tailoring.  

you can get a custom suit, where the pattern is sized exactly from your measurements, meaning no prepeg patterns, and you pick the fabrics so that literally your suit is made from the ground up exactly for you only.  so custom would where you literally shape the bike and do things like you see with the theme bikes and such where there is litarally only 1 of a kind of that particluar style or bike. This is the Michaelangelo style maybe.

then you have a made to measure - where the suit isn't off the peg, but the patterns are there but they are modified from standard to your build and in a way its still made only for you, except not everything is fabricated exactly for you.  so maybe that is customized -meaning you take a starndard motorcycle and you do more than just simple mods you do some welding and such so that its definitely oly made for you but not built from the ground up.  This is maybe the real good local artist that is does original work but just isn't exactly like Michaelangelo.

then you have alterations on an off the peg suit - basically this would be what most of us normal people do, by chaning out simple parts to our bikes to make them unique but the same base is there, ie trade out some carbon parts, and take some parts off or such.  this is the talented art teacher that can do stuff you can't, but not as much as the local artist.

well that is my opinion on what thedifferent stages of motorcycle "custom" and levels are.  who knows right? [laugh]

After we define what custom means, let's define cool.

Done.  What's next?   ;D

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/3145236629_86fb22e85e_b.jpg)

damn defining "cool" is almost as bad as trying to tell someone the non logical reasons why you like your ducati.

i think the harley davidson saying is appropriate in this instance "if i have to explain it you wouldn't understand"

but a picture of steve mcqueen might suffice as a definition of cool. lol.

+1

Sort of like if you have to ask if it is cool, it probably isn't.


mitt

Cool is like sexy.  Its an inherent quality that can't be attained.  It either is or it isn't. 

And trying to be cool, or sexy for that matter, pretty much ensures that you won't be.

As long as it means getting the ride you've always wanted, I don't think it matters what you call it. Whether that be a complete custom one off bike built to your specs, a street bike that you've customized into your perfect machine, or simply a bike off the showroom floor that gives you the biggest smile when you go out for a ride. It's all good as long as it's what you want.

you can't bolt-on custom.

Custom is taking a single funky part you machined as far as you could with manual equipment and finishing it by filing, sanding, and polishing for an entire day (or more) until it was just so.

Custom is agonizing over the smallest detail that 95% of viewers will probably not even notice.

And so on.

I can't define "custom" as it applies to bikes...
But I damn sure know it when I see it...

didn't this topic pop up once and cause a bunch of angry shit-talk?

maybe that was on TOB...

If I have to ask you what it started life as.....


it's custom  ;)

What if the congruent theme is paint and bolt on parts?  

Custom is a one off - as in if I crash it it's gonna take a lot of work and time to replace.

Most of the stuff that I see is modding.

I will agree that bolt ons are not custom.

Paint and bolt on parts don't qualify for the term "everything".

What if I were to make a custom fender? I sure hope I would be able to bolt it on! ;)

I don't like the word custom, it has a Harley ring to it.
Same thing with customized - I like modified better.

Built sounds better. A bike must be "built" to get my  [bow_down] A well modded bike gets a  [thumbsup]

Theme, carried out with paint and parts, doesn't cut it as custom for me.

Pretty much everyone that's owned a Monster, and decided to change it, used paint and parts to do so.  That's not custom....that's modding.

I think it also depends on who uses the word around here.  I think a lot of people like to rag on RetroSBK for some reason even though he puts out some really nice bikes.  

I agree with this!

Vin, thanks, but its not a big deal I tend to follow DiVinici and his thought on pretty much anyone looking at his stuff - "And often, when I see one of these men take this work in his hand, I wonder that he does not put it to his nose, like a monkey, or ask me if it is something good to eat."

My Stuff is often either way over the top or mis-understood by a lot of people, by design. If you look at my StreetFighter and ask me "what did you change" then my concept works. Ever seen a Riddler car? A Subtle Smack in the Mouth (tm) is the goal. If you have to ask, you don't get it, wont get it, and cant appreciate it. If that makes me an arrogant prick, without talking to me, then so be it. I don't defend my work to critics, and I don't get much criticism from my peer builders, so I'm not worried about it, really.

Ive thought long and hard about custom and how to define it... but its true, its like art, you cant define it you know it, and it maybe not be the same for everyone.

And now I have to ask... Is a OCC bike with spinner wheels and a monkey butt gas tank custom? They built it all by hand, but its a pile... lol (im kidding, relax)

Thanks guys fro keeping it flame free, it really was and is a question I have always wondered.

I tend to think of it like Cool... one of my quotes is "You cant buy Cool" maybe you cant buy custom either.. But then I would be out of business...

Will

I'm not looking to rag on Will.  I just don't think the bike on the other page is a custom.  And judging by some of the comments, and this thread, others agree.  Not dissing the man....just that bike.  



I think their stuff is custom.  Without a doubt.  Doesn't mean its any good....or that I like it.  

Just like Norm's stuff.  I'd say its custom.  But for the life of me I can't see why everyone was so into it.  I thought it was all crap.

I am in the camp that thinks that any modification beyond what is stock makes a bike a "custom".  Since the question at hand is about semantics and not the bike, why not use the literal definition: "to modify or build according to individual or personal specifications or preference" ? 

What makes this bike a "custom" http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36801.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36801.0) and the 4K Kustom not?  If we go by definition in this thread, neither are custom. Paint and bolt ons.  Im pretty sure the monster dirt bike wouldn't be "custom" either.  Besides the exhaust on the dirtbike, it is paint and bolt on parts too... just like the 4K Kustom.  Obviously one would be pretty naive to think paint and bolt on parts were all that went into any of these bikes but I disagree that "coolness", money, or amount of time spent, has any bearing on the word custom.   

Custom isn't some inherent or innate quality... it is a word used to describe work done to a bike that is in any way shape or form different from the original.

So regardless of where the parts were purchased or fabricated, work done by an amature or professional, if it isn't stock off the showroom floor, it is custom.

according to your definition...  And that's what's at the crux of this whole thread.  What IS the definition of custom? 

Final answer:  To each their own definition.

I don't consider that bike custom either.  



See, this is where you and I differ.  The any way shape and form aspect.  A tail chop and slip-ons doesn't make the bike a custom.  Changing it from stock off the showroom floor isn't custom.

So what is?

A guy who lives near me named Stuart Rust (of AMS Ducati fame) just built
a 1975 Triumph Bobber with a Monster swingarm, 749S suspension, Brembo superbike brakes, and a lot of handmade goodies.


It's a custom!   [thumbsup]  

 [beer]
( [bacon] and it's cool too! [bacon] )

In my mind....it has to be built to some degree.  Rather than assembled from a group of parts.

----edit after reading the above post----

You can build a custom from assembled parts....if the parts belong to something else.  Bolting on catalog parts, built for the specifc bike, don't make it a custom.

My opinion anyway......

I feel like in the age of the internet... custom is hard to achieve. way back when, when you would see a custom bike or car... i'd imagine it would seem like one of a kind, because for most people seeing it, it would be the only one they ever see like that... For us now, we see similar mods over and over and over again, but forget that this community is WORLD WIDE, and inherently made up of the most enthusiastic of enthusiasts who, to one an extent or another, modify their machines.

Are bolt-on shiny pieces custom? In my mind, yes. Rearsets? Clipons? Shiny Bolts and Grips? Why not?
Without this global community, no manufacturer of these bits would have the level of demand require to support their current scale. Someone buys a new set of grips, or rearsets, or handlebars because something about the stock ones just isn't suiting their tastes. So they change them to FIT THEIR TASTES. That is custom-tailoring your bike to your tastes and needs. That is custom.

My opinion on the RetroSBK 4k Custom is pretty high. It's alot easier to do a custom bike when you don't have a spend limit, much like it's easier for me to design a nice printed piece that doesn't have any restrictions. When you start throwing a budget, and other restrictions into the equation... Well, that's where the real challenge comes in. This bike was made to suit a certain person's tastes, and was done so within a certain person's budget. Doesn't get much more custom than that.

technically speaking of course   [roll]
great work rSBK. your machines are always inspiring.  [thumbsup]

My opinion:  [roll]

If a bike is a collection of parts from a catalog for that bike, then it is just modified. Nothing wrong with that at all.

If a bike is a collection of parts that someone made just for that bike, and/or if the original bike parts have been changed specifically for that bike, then it is custom. Paint alone does not make a custom though.

It doesn't matter if it is good work or shit work...if it looks good or like ass...or if the owner built it or paid someone to build it...it's still a custom bike. It's always cool when someone does it themselves, but not many have the skill...and they may not have the time/patience/desire to learn the skill...or maybe they don't have the skill to do everything themselves. But they have money and a vision of some sort, and that's just fine.

I think of it in terms of a new house. If you buy a brand new home in a subdivision, you didn't buy a custom home...you bought a tract home and modified it with whatever options you like. A custom home requires a person to hire an architect (or do it themselves) and lay out the house exactly as they want it. Most can't design and build a house all by themselves, so they hire contractors...it is still a custom home though.

I see your JD and raise you cooler!!

(http://hellforleathermagazine.com/images/SI_McQueen_1.jpg)

If you truly followed Da Vinci you wouldn't have started this thread.  It seems we have a discussion like this every time you post pics of a new bike. You don't like the comments, tell us in one way or another that you are better then us, and then fade away for a while. Kinda sad really. Your stuff is usually fairly cool.

I would say custom really involves changing a bike in a way that takes creativity. Both creativity in a visual sense and creativity in an execution sense. I have bolt on mods on my bike like many other that simply came out of a box and I bolted them on, and I agree, these are mods. The stuff I consider custom usually started with some kind of raw material or a part off of a completely different bike. The custom really comes through in the "making it work" on the bike, weather that means machining or hammering or what have you. But of course this could go on forever.

   
Custom is an adjective in the English language  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/custom (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/custom)

It isn't my definition, the powers that be have come up with a definition.

I don't think that is what Will is asking.

make the beast with two backsING BAD ASS is more like it. [laugh] very cool. [bacon]

that's a *chopped* up monster swingarm, mind you.


For me, custom isn't mere color changes or bolts ons from a catalog. Most of the stuff on DucCutters, to me that's custom (even if it isn't something i particularly like).

HB, It wasnt started in defense or otherwise.. It was a question.. I don't often have a lot of time to play around on the net. My bikes aren't posted here for your approval rating, the backlog of work at Retro tells me I have plenty. Never said I was better than you, tragic if you take things that way. Glad you like my bikes tho, come ride one sometime.

I haven't built a bike this inexpensive before, so its a new area for me.

What this thread HAS done is told me a bit about what people think about custom and how it plays. My clients come to me either with an idea or with a budget... I always pretty much figured that I was a custom bike builder. Maybe Im a custom bike builder that modifies bikes too..

Thank you to all that have posted an opinion. It still blows me away that some people think that having an opinion differing from theirs requires defense (or offense), but thats what makes the internet fun.


Cool - Like I said, thats easy.. You cant BUY it, you just HAVE it...

McQueen = Cool
Sinatra = Cool
Dean = Cool

There's a guy nearby me that "tricks out" Ducatis - primarily superbikes.


He simply bolts on various performance parts, changes the paint slightly, and viola - "custom" bike. But I could do that too, so I'm not really impressed or in aww that somebody is willing to pay him to do it. Cool that he can take lazy people's money, but pulling things apart to have them powdercoated... yawn-a-thon.

There are a few elements to the bikes that are eye catching - perhaps a different, unexpected swingarm. Tasteful paint.

But, it doesn't wow me.

There was a shop in another city, not too far from here, that did this and sold the bikes quite marked up. With bad paint. I wouldn't boo at them in person, but I'd never have an envy-attack over the owner of one of their creations.





To me, Stuart Rust's latest Triumph, which was just built purely for fun, that's custom. Taking a Ducati engine and making your own frame, doing something wild, like Radical Ducati - to me, that's custom. Pierobon framed F042's, out of the box, yet custom to me.

I've got the clutch bolt-ons, and sprocket covers, etc. None of that is custom to me, its just adornments. There comes a point, however, when things change. When the bike has a good theme of "adornments" in such a volume that its more than just a collection of bolt ons, that's custom.

I didn't take specific offense. I could give two sh1ts what some guy from Camarillo thinks. (My sis lives there :)) Your posts are directed at all of us. If I have to explain to you that you come off as condescending then, as you would say, "If you have to ask, you don't get it, wont get it, and cant appreciate it." Read through your posts if you care.

You certainly don't need our approval rating. I was just pointing out that it seems whenever you post up a bike you get upset with ANY negative comments. We aren't Cycle World, we know more then they do about these bikes. As such, we will be more critical then a bunch of goofs slobbering over something that relieves them from having to look at another CBRRRXX600900 whatever.

Again, I like your stuff. It's more my style then most of the modifiers/customizers/builders/whatever out there. Keep it up, keep posting up, just grow a thicker skin.

Things that wow me, typically involve going to some next level, like

machining the clutch case (cheap - you could be "different" by making the windows 'plus-signs' or something), building up the motor a bit, redesigning the radiator to be different either in location or shape, adjusting geometry for some specific goal, hiding the ugly/necessary bits like rad-tank, electronics, wires/hoses, etc.

Those are things that set a bike apart from a simple color change. I like a tasteful paint job or powdercoated bit here or there, but that's just to clean things up - that doesn't change the bike in any meaningful way. A custom is that, to me, a meaningful change. (whatever a meaningful change is).

Wow.  Really?!?  There's such a thing as a book filled with descriptions of what words mean?!?  Damn...I wonder if Al Gore is to credit for that?  Will wonders ever cease....

Anyone mention?...

Lee Marvin
Sean Connery
Bogart

Custom bike to me means: Handbuilt and picked major components (frame,engine etc) or modifying a bike to accept another brands motor (triton, norvil, etc). 

Customized bike to me means: Cleaning up bike (wiring, colors, etc), adding accessories (catalog or otherwise), upgrading existing parts (wheels, forks,brakes, engine)

Nothing screams "custom" like a bunch of stickers and some of those red LED strips under the gas tank!

but remember some people here have made "custom" clutch covers and belt covers, by modifying or cutting the old stock ones themselves.

can this be done by anyone? of course they even showed us how with a dremel or drill press,

but that in some ways could be considered "the ultimate custom" because they are taking a stock part and modifying it themselves so that it can't be turned back to original and the process of making it is done purely by their own skill thus making it a truly "one off" piece.

The ultimate custom would be fabricating one out of something that was never was one...

Maybe some maple wood clutch covers are in order.

Wood, you say?

(http://gallery.popmonkey.com/d/10717-2/somewhat_custom_900ss.jpg)

(http://gallery.popmonkey.com/d/10719-2/definitely_monoposto.jpg)

That's the strangest thing I've ever seen.

Eh, you've been here longer than that.  [laugh]

Caveat - Custom is custom, but doesnt mean you SHOULD do it... lol

are you kidding me?

i'm going to figure out how to dismantle my ceiling fan and adorn my bike with its remains this upcoming winter. (need it in the summer).

Why?  That one in the picture is for sale.

I've seen some strange stuff - but this is on a whole new level that I can't fathom WTF the owner was thinking when he did that.

Maybe a love of Ents? Or the North West?

the wife appreciates you stopping me from taking apart our Hunter.

Speaking of custom (from your website):

Was she going for the look of a Ducati disguised as a 'Busa with the color scheme from an early 90's Katana?!

(http://www.retrosbk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/iphonemarch-028.jpg)

 ;)


Seriously, is that bike pink or is it just the lighting under the tent?

   It's quite simple, Customize, to make or alter to Individual specifications, ie; made to specifications of the owner or buyer...back in the day, the "customer" could add or delete options to their desire, any definition beyond that can go into infinity.....   get a grip!

Really, I must admit that most of these distinctions do not interest me at all, yet I think they should.  I'm usually big on making distinctions like these.  Basically, I look at a bike and ask myself, "Self, do I like that or not?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denigrating this discussion.  If there is any fault here, it is with my ambivalence.

I am always intrigued by these type of discussions. There is a bit of a theme running through the discussion which is basically covered in the first couple of replies ... yet I still find myself compelled to comment 5 pages later.

The analogies to custom made suits and Architect designed houses are valid and points well made. But just because an Architect specifies appliances from a catalogue or a tailor doesn't weave their own silk ... doesn't mean they are not turning out custom made products. It all comes down to personal interpretation of where the very IZ_ line exists ... its completely subjective and dictated by our own prejudices.

For me I have always preferred the term 'custom-made' as it has a slightly different implication but often find myself falling for the abbreviated version of 'custom' which has gained such popularity. For example my exhaust was custom made ... and I think it meets most peoples definition of 'custom'. It was made by hand bending pipe and turning sheet (cut, shaped, welded and polished) to my instructions. But bolting that on my bike hasn't made it a 'custom bike' IMO, although I can honestly say I don't think there is another bike like it anywhere in the world.

In fact I don't even like to say my bike has been modified as this tends to draw negative connotations of dodgy backyard work and it really depends who your audience is ... I would not say my bike has been modified unless I knew they understood what had been changed and why. Which is why I prefer to say my bike has been 'changed' to suit me and much of it is for aesthetics.

Now for the thing that is going to get me in to trouble ... I really think the term 'custom' is used for marketting and sales. It doesn't matter who you are 'selling' to: readers, on-lookers, show judges, your peers or a potential purchaser. Again this all comes down to perception or amateur psychology but, hey, thats the way I see it.

If I was to ever sell my bike I would be focussing on the custom made exhaust. Like I said I don't consider my bike to be a 'custom' but I would sure be pushing that shit on anyone who might be interested. So if you are making a living from building bikes then sure as shit you will be pushing the 'custom' angle as well ... just that different people will do it in different ways.

Long may the debate continue .......

 [cheeky] [evil]

That bike is the brightest colored pink you may have ever seen. Almost need sunglasses to look at it. I think it was Michael Bay (the director) who asked for a "Bubble gum pink" bike - that's what he got.

Yep... Thats one of the 6 bikes we built for the Transformers 2 movie. Its on display at the Hard Rock in Florida.

And I really didn't care WHAT she was going for.. Sadly, the hottest looking girl we saw in ten days in FL. Really made me miss Malibu ALOT.