Specifically, AFV, Fuel Trim, and Idle Speed adjustments. I haven't messed with those as I just set the TPS and throttle synced, called it good, and went riding. However I just got a exhaust gas analyzer and would like to tune more thoroughly. Bike idles at 1000rpm and I need to get it idling higher. Plugs have a whitish powdery coating. I understand that's a little on the lean side. From my understanding I want a brownish powdery coating. Shop manual says I need to tune the CO to +-5%. All I need is a walkthrough on the software. Also - should I probe both exhaust pipes, and can I set fueling in each cylinder individually with VDST, or are the settings for both cylinders? thanks
Year? Model?
I have a 2006 S2R800 with 5AM ECU -
What are the operations required in the software to perform the adjustments(navigating the application)? Are all adjustments done in the Active Settings tab? I'm assuming the adjustments are made with the bike running.
Ok, I've got an '03 800 Dark so I think it's the exact same engine. There are two things you need to do with the ignition on, one with the engine running one with it stopped.
TPS Reset:
This needs to be done with the ignition turned on but the engine NOT running. If it's running it can suck the butterflies open and that's bad, you want them still and totally closed. If you just turn the ignition on that's not good enough, the ECU will go to sleep in a few minutes and you can't connect to it with VDSTS. So...
Start the bike and get it running. Connect VDSTS so you know it's working. Leave the key where it is but kill the engine with the rocker cutoff switch. Once it stops running turn the switch back on. Now open the throttle and let it snap shut. Do this three times in a row. This makes sure the throttle butterflies are totally seated. Now in VDSTS under 'Active Settings' (blue screwdriver button) go to 'TPS Reset' tab. Press it. It will take a few seconds and then it is reset.
Small note, do not unscrew your TPS or attempt to measure or adjust the voltage. You have a non-linear TPS and the only thing you need to do to reset it is what you just did.
Fuel trim/CO trim:
The other thing you need to do is adjust the fuel trim, also called the idle CO trim and basically the electronic equivalent of an idle mixture screw on a carburetor. This is also under 'Active Settings' (blue screwdriver button) on the 'Fuel Trim' tab. The bike should be running and up to operating temperature when you do this. Going from memory here since I'm not plugged in, you have to hit a button to read the current setting. It will take a few seconds and then display. You have a range of -128 to +127. It probably won't run with it set more than +/-30. You can type in the value or use the up and down arrows. I suggest the arrows. If you put in a radically different value it could be too rich or lean and the bike could stop running. Then you have to try to get connected without the bike running to reset it to something viable. This is a pain, ask me how I know ;) Anyway, you can move the setting up or down. Make small changes and listen to the bike run. Basically the idea is to go richer bit by bit, the engine speed should increase ever so slightly. Go slowly, a notch or two, let it settle for a few seconds, notch or two, settle, etc. At some point the engine speed will drop off just a bit. Technically the max speed is perfect, not to rich or too lean. Of course having a gas tester you can just adjust this to get about 5% at the tail pipe.
I usually set a couple notches rich for two reasons: 1) lean engines can run hot and get damaged, rich engines don't and 2) the stock fuel injection mapping is a little lean in the low revs to meet EPA/ECU emissions, the reason there are so many lean popping problems with these non-O2 sensor bikes. You can get a PC3 and all that or just add a little fuel. You'll run a bit more rich than you need at some of the low revs but just enough around the 3-4k range. This is how I set my bike up. I get a little less mileage but crisp throttle response with no pops or backfiring, all with a completely stock ECU. My plugs are a nice light tan like they should be.
Ok, now an overview of the whole procedure and some details on how to use your gas analyzer and tune the cylinders individually.
1) Get the engine up to full normal operating temp. Have a fan blowing on your engine so it doesn't overheat.
2) TPS reset (see above).
3) Kill the engine. You need to gently seat both air bypass screws and then turn them out exactly two turns each. If you've never done this there may be plugs over the screws, remove them.
4) Start the bike. It may take a little throttle to run, the air bypass screws control the idle speed.
5) Open both air bypass screws the same amount to get as close to proper idle as you can. Idle speed is usually on a sticker under the seat, around 1200.
6) Synch the throttle bodies.
7) Set the Fuel Trim (see above). You can set it either by the idle speed method above or use your gas tester. Just stick it in one tailpipe for now and shoot for about 4-5% CO, we'll fine tune later.
8 ) Now keep repeating steps 5, 6, & 7 in that order. Make sure to adjust both of the air bypass screws the same amount in or out every time, you want them the same number of turns out. Each of the three settings (idle speed, TB synch, fuel trim) affects the others to a small degree. By iterating several times we hone in on getting it just right. You'll see, it will be a little rough and then get smoother every iteration. After a few iterations you'll be done.
Now that's usually it, but you can tune each cylinder's air/fuel mixture individually with a gas tester. You can't really do this at the mufflers, you will need to be able to hook up your gas tester to the exhaust bungs. These are the little allen head screws on the exhaust header. If you measure here you can get an accurate reading of the cylinders individually. Also measuring here, you want to shoot for 6-7% CO. As the gases travel down the pipe they are still hot enough to react and some of that CO combines with available oxygen and becomes CO2. You lose about 1-2% CO along the way.
Getting back to individual adjustment, measure each cylinder. If they are different you can lean out one or richen the other to get them even. You do this with the air bleed screws, now they won't be in the same position ;) If you turn it in, less air, richer mixture. Turn it out, more air, leaner mixture. Adjust one or both a little. Don't worry about absolute value, just get them the same. Now that they are the same use the Fuel Trim to set the absolute level. Now iterate again: TB synch, idle speed set, CO trim (individually this time). You should be very close now and you're really just fine tuning, you shouldn't need many iterations.
Now, I think you're supposed to shoot for 4% at the tailpipe according to the official Ducati manual which will put you into EPA compliance. The bike will probably run a little lean, may pop in the 3-4k range. 5% at the tailpipe (7% at the bung) and you'll run a little smoother and a little cooler. That extra gas in the slightly rich mixture that doesn't burn acts as a refrigerant as it changes from liquid to gas and absorbs heat.
So when I first did this I used the Gunson spark plug that has a window in it to set the mixture. It's really cool, little window and you can actually see the flame front in your cylinder. White/light blue means too lean, red/orange means to rich, nice blue is just right. Adjust as above but just check each cylinder by color instead of %. I found that on my engine the cylinders were about the same so I didn't need to compensate between them. Also, once I had done it a few times I could find the sweet spot just by listening to the idle speed and didn't need more than that.
A side note: if you have the Gunson Gas Tester I hear it is a good little unit but needs to be treated with some patience. It reads accurately but not quickly. Take your time. I'm sure you can find some postings on the web from people who use it.
Oh, and if you don't have LT Snyders (Desmo Times) manual I suggest you get it. Also read Brad Black's pages on fuel injection. Kind of dense but makes sense of it all.
Scott
<bookmark>
i don't agree that the CO % changes depending on where you check it. it is influenced by dilution tho. the pipe i stick into the mufflers is about 1m long, and you need to push it a long way down. std mufflers are almost impossible to get a good sample on - you need to put the probe inside a long tube to stop the reverse pulse of air getting to the end of the tube. a 4gas is good for this as you can see the o2 rise when you have a bad sample.
there is only one mixture adjuster, but you use the air bleeds to even the mixture between cylinders.
the "idle speed" and "AFV" buttons are not used afaik.
Wow Scott, thanks, I have the Gunson gastester and the LT Snyder book. Another question here, I've been using a butterknife with the tip bent to get to the throttle sync screw since it's so ridiculously difficult to access. There is a tool available that I thought was kind of neat from Holeshot Performance; a long thin right-angle gear drive screwdriver that's $85, but is there another cheaper trick or something to it?
I removed the two bolts holding the oil cooler and just let it hang down by the front tire. With it like that and the front wheel turned to one side it's pretty easy to get a long screwdriver to the screw. Even easier if the tip of the screw is still painted with bright paint, you can spot it easily with a flashlight. It's still a little awkward but I wouldn't spend $85.
This also lets you set everything with the air cleaner and tank in place. I think the official manual requires you to have the tank off to the side and the top of the air cleaner and filter out. That seems silly to me, it's a pain to set up the tank and the bike isn't going to be running with no air cleaner when you're done.
Scott
Alright thank you Scott and Brad, that was the enlightenment I sought. I'm guessing to really get to the finer state of tune I'll need to go to the hardware store and get a fitting of some sort to fit the bungs and hook the gastester to those, which means I'll likely need a heat resistant hose as well. Now if I were to get ambitious and degree the cams, would that change the baseline on the fueling causing me to have to start all over with fueling adjustments? I'll have to add that I'm running a DP ECU. I'd simply like to exploit the potential of the engine as much as possible without going nuts and getting the PCIII and doing head work, etc, even though that may happen in the future. Most people would just upgrade but I happen to think the 800 wet clutch has a very tractable power band but I feel it's just not tuned very well out of the box.
I'd also like to add that I have done the air bleed screw procedure, and it seems that 1000rpm is all I could achieve by turning them out, as if it plateaus or something. I think they're both out by almost 4 turns, with no idle speed gains after that. What am I doing wrong here?
I was going to suggest it but didn't want to get overly pushy. Yes, degree the cams. SOOOO worth it. Once you do that you're going to want to go through this whole process again but if you do it before, you'll be pretty close to the right ballbark and just need fine tuning. I had to degree my cams because one came loose and one cylinder wasn't firing. Once I was done I was amazed how smooth it ran. It seems almost everyone who checks them finds them 5 degrees off or so. There's no way you're going to get peak engine performance like that, even with a PC3. You can also get fancy if you want. Advance the timing a little and you get less low end torque but more top end power. I went with stock.
I'm with you, a properly tuned stock 800 is a nice engine. And properly tuning it gets rid of most of the problems people are using PC3s to fix: lean pops and shifty throttle response in low and mid range. Also, most people with PC3s aren't getting a custom map so really aren't getting all they can out of it. My stock 800 fires up every time and always runs smooth. If you're not going to do all this here why bother with the bolt on performance goodies? Then again I think people should upgrade their suspension and work on their riding skills to get faster before they throw parts on their engine. I'm not always popular ;)
Brad, thanks for the info. I didn't realize you snaked the collection tube that far up the exhaust. I think that just putting it in near the tailpipe would also account for the Gunson tester being noted as finnicky, it's getting a diluted sample. On a side note, one difference between my Dark and a later S2R is that the S2R has a catalytic converter in the udder. This would definitely change your readings at the tail pipe. I think Gunson sells a kit with several different screw in exhaust adapters to hook the thing to a bung. With what Brad said and the catalytic converter, this is going to be your best bet for accurate readings.
As to why you can't get the idle higher with the air bleeds, I don't have an clear answer for that. Are you running full stock air box and exhaust? Maybe the fuel trim is set really lean and if you richen it up it will work out just fine. It's certainly worth trying but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Scott
I've got the DP airbox/ECU running a cat eliminator midpipe with fully cored stock freeflow mufflers(perf tube+muffler packing).
What would I need to buy to degree the cams, and where? The shop manual outlines the procedure, but it's best to have some first-hand experience to boot.
So your intake/exhaust set up is not stock but it's a mostly matched set. I don't think that's your problem with the idle. Check the fuel trim or ask Brad who knows way more than I do.
When I got my bike it was set to idle at 800, god knows why. It was sold new to my friend like that, I bought it from her. It took forever to warm up. I opened the air bleeds a little and that was better but then I had to wait a week or so to get my VDSTS to get it any higher as it was already way lean. Since then it's been great, idles right around 1250 and super smooth. Interestingly, I once tried to get it to idle down at 800 again and couldn't no matter what I did. Who knows.
For the cams you will need: an engine turning tool, a degree wheel that mates to it, a dial guage to measure valve rise, and a clamp to hold it to the head. You can buy all of this for not too much or...
I got the $20 cylindrical engine turnging tool, downloaded a degree wheel from the web, printed it on cardboard, and glued a little nut to the turning tool. The cardboard wheel bolted right up. Very cheap. I bought an inexpensive dial gauge at harbor freight ($10) and bent a heavy gauge steel wire into the right shape to hold it in place when bolted to the cylinder head. I put a small washer under the dial gauge head to ride on the valve as it moved. Again, really cheap.
I'm sure it would have been a little easier to do the job with a degree wheel that didn't fold when I nudged it and a nice CNC machined custom mount for the gauge but I was only doing this job once so I went frugal. It turned out fine. As with many things, patience is more important than skill. It took me a few days to figure it all out and then nudge it back and forth a few degrees a few times to get it where I wanted it. In the end one was dead on and one was 1/2 a degree off. Good enough for me.
While you're at it, the only other thing that might need to be done is adjusting the valves. Make sure you do that too. No sense skipping that if you're doing the rest of this.
Scott
if it's lean winding the air bleeds out to raise the idle speed also makes it leaner, so it might be too lean for the speed to come up. try winding them in and see what happens. or just trim it up and see if the speed climbs.
Did I mention you really should read Brad's pages on fuel injection? ;)
I'm grateful guys, thanks for the info. I adjusted the valves about 1500 miles ago @7500- I'm now @ ~9000 and the bike runs okay, seems to be a flat spot in the low to midrange. So I suppose I'll go out and get a dial gauge. Got the turning tool, made myself a degree wheel, that's it? I don't need a castle nut tool or a cam wheel holder?
I hope this isn't too much of a threadjack, but are there any web sites that cover the step-by-step procedure for cam degreeing?
Quote from Scott
QuoteAdvance the timing a little and you get less low end torque but more top end power.
Scott, great write-up on the VDST and I vote to make this thread a sticky. Just one minor comment about the effect of advancing or retarding cam timing, I think I remember from a long time ago that counter-intuitive as it is, advancing the cam timing helps low end torque at the expense of top end power. I think it has to do with the valves closing sooner and keeping more fuel in the cylinders at low speed but the same earlier closing at high speed hinders exhaust scavenging.
Not 100% sure and maybe brad black has something to say on this topic.
Could be Bob, I might be wrong on that one. As I understand it, advance (to a point) is bad at low speeds because you are firing before TDC and so fighting the piston. At high speeds this is good because the piston is moving so fast the flame takes some time to travel. If you fire at TDC you're already half way down by the time the pressure kicks in, so you fire before to sort of race the piston a bit. Of course if you really want the best of all worlds you need to look at fancy engines with both variable ignition timing based on demand and variable valve timing with pneumatic valves. Power when you want it, super economy when you don't. But beyond the scope of this discussion.
I don't think there's a Duc specific sight with full details. There was one with some stuff. I read all I could from various sights and found one sight where they were done end to end on a v8. Once you have the concept it all falls into place. I thought about writing it all up but it's a lot to tear the bike open, go through it all, take pics, write it up, especially if you've already done it and don't need to actually do it for the bike.
Tools: maybe a piston stop, see below. Other than that, no other special tools than what you already have. You're not going to be removing the castle nuts or pulleys. There are three little allen bolt you loosen. This lets the outer toothed wheel spin in relation to the inner one that is bolted to the camshaft. Measure, figure out how far you need to move, loosen, move the cam shaft a little, re-measure, realize you went both too far and the wrong way, curse, skin knuckles... Eventually it works out ;)
I degreed mine on the intake valves. The intakes are more critical than the exhaust, the exhaust gases move themselves out with force. With a two valve they're both on the same cam shaft so you only set one. 4v bike not only have two camshafts but a whole world of overlap to be explored since you adjust them independently.
Also, I set the degree wheel to 0 at TDC for each cylinder. You can just work off one being 90 degrees out but the math got confusing for me. I was already confused trying to remember which way to turn everything. Also, I didn't read the TDC marks from the bike, I set them. I got a piston stop. Turn it it a little ways, rotate one way until it stops, measure, rotate the other way, should be the same reading in the other direction. Again, if you're going to this much trouble you may as well get TDC right. It's easy for the marks to be a degree or two of or for one cylinder to be a bit off from the other.
Scott
Don't confuse ignition timing with cam timing.
http://www.bikeboy.org/camtime2v.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/camtime2v.html)
see the 800m and s2r800 reports too
Quote from: Speeddog on April 14, 2010, 08:15:57 PM
Don't confuse ignition timing with cam timing.
Sorry if I did that, didn't mean too. As I said, that discussion is beyond this scope but with pneumatic valves you can do things like effectively modify your cam profile as you want. Just really cool possibilities.
Scott
OK, ran the part #s for the Ducati tools required for this job per the factory shop manual and of course they are obscenely expensive. From my understanding you need 1) 2 dial indicators, one for intake and exhaust fitted simultaneously (Harbor Freight $11.99 and $14.99 for the deluxe model) 2) a piston stop tool ($35.99 from CA Cycleworks) 3) engine turning tool ($65 from CA Cycleworks) 4) a degree wheel (I made a really nice one in AutoCAD, printed it out on regular paper, and spray-mounted it to a sheet of styrene plastic) 5) feeler guages (get these somewhere for ~$10) 6) some sort of holder for the dial indicator (I'll probably make one out of something that screws into the threaded holes for the valve covers)
The shop manual instructs to tension the horizontal and vertical belts to 145 and 160 hz respectively for this procedure, which obviously differs from the running tension of 110 hz on both belts(I think the 110hz spec is a revised spec from Ducati, implemented after this manual was published, so I assume tensioning to 110hz is correct for this procedure). After turning CCW and CW a few times, measuring angle @ 1mm lift on both intake and exhaust, you arrive at final numbers. Allowed deviation is +-3deg from spec cited in the manual
OK, so what do I do now? Loosen the three allen bolts on the cam wheel and do what? This information is curiously absent from the manual.
You only need one dial gauge (see below). Don't bother with the articulated magnetic bracket from HF, didn't work for this job. You can make one that will work from a stiff piece of wire. It just has to hold the rod of the gauge in the same line as the valve. I found a piston stop for $15-20 somewhere else. It's a weird size but people have them, look around. Their engine turner and degree wheeel are NICE! But you can make do with any engine turner that you can find a way to stick your home made wheel to. No, you cannot turn the back wheel. ;) This is delicate work and you need precise control.
So, unlike a 4v your intake and exhaust cams are on the same camshaft. The intake is really critical, you want that valve opening and closing exactly when it should. Exhaust, who cares? That high pressure gas is going to blow right out of there even if it's a few degrees off. So, if your cam is weird and it looks like you can't get the intake and exhaust to exactly where they both should be what do you do? Since you can't set them individually do you compromise and set in the middle? No, you set intake. That being the case, why even measure exhaust except for curiosity? Can't remember if I read this somewhere or it's just my own opinion I formed.
On a 4v they can and need to be set individually and you can make the cam profiles overlap more or less. This can create a momentum where both valves are open for just a bit and the exiting exhaust gas leaving creates a vacuum that can pull in the next fresh charge. Heavy duty tuner stuff, way above my head. Most profiles are set up this way even on a single cam shaft, but you can move it around if the exhaust and intake are separate. On our 2v bikes they are together so you just get to pick one setting and both lobes advance or retard together.
I just set the belts really tight, as tight as I could, and called it good. I also set my regular running belt tension with a 5m allen and move on. It's no rocket science. The higher blet tension for setting cam timing is based on removing all the slack from the system.
Ok, so go to Ducati web site and look at the exploded diagrams for the cam. You'll see the separate hub and outer toothed wheel. To change the setting: with the belts on undo the three little allen bolts so they're loose, grab the castle nut with some pliers, and genltly rotate the caslte nut. It should move pretty freely. You're not tightening or loosening the nut here, it's just attached to the cam that you want to move and is easy to grab. You should see it move relative to the outer toothed wheel. Then retighten the allen bolts, or at least one of them.
Once you have the technique down it's a bit of trial and error. You go to TDC, rotate the engine watching the the dial until it reads .050" of lift, record the degree reading, rotate through the cycle until you hit .050" on the down side, record the reading again. The spot dead between the two readings is your peak lift. Figure out how far you are off, guess at which direction to turn the camshaft, adjust to your best guess, rotate and measure again, adjust again, etc. It's trial and error. Never rotate the engine backwards. You don't want the slop in tolerances in the engine coming into play. Going in one direction keeps all the pieces against each other. If you miss a read just go around again. Also, measure everything 2-3 times. You want to be sure you're getting it right. When you're done I'd say loc-tite and torque those three little bastards down. Did I mention mine came loose right after I bought the bike? ;) Big thanks to Howie for diagnosing and talke me through it all. Not a fun time for a new Duc owner.
The .050" before you read the degree reading is 'ramp up'. It's really, really hard to tell exactly where the cam lift starts but easy to tell when you're .050" above dead bottom. Use .050" above on both ends and it all evens out. :)
Go slowlly with all the engine turning. If you go way too far on cam adjusting you might get to a point where the pitson hits the valve and things can bend. That's bad and expensive. I know this can happen with the aftermarket pulleys, maybe not with the OEM. Mine was totally loose and flopping around. I drove several miles home on one cyclinder and didn't bend anything. Oh, and make a nice little paint mark on the cam wheel to the castle nut before you start. If you totally screw up it's nice to be able to get back where you started and ride to the shop instead of towing it.
Scott
Been reading various web sites about degreeing cams and starting to get an idea of the process. One detail that's nagging me is, how is the dial indicator set up to indicate movement of the valve/rocker on these 2V Ducati motors? The opening rocker blocks the valve/shim area, and the top of the rocker doesn't seem to be a good surface to place the indicator tip. Or is there some giant flaw in my thinking on this?
Here's one I made for 4-valvers.
Catches the edge of the closer shim.
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4523737091_7400041978_o.jpg)
Quote from: scott_araujo on April 15, 2010, 10:40:00 AM
The spot dead between the two readings is your peak lift.
could you elaborate? :-[
Quote from: Mr Earl on April 15, 2010, 11:42:25 AM
Been reading various web sites about degreeing cams and starting to get an idea of the process. One detail that's nagging me is, how is the dial indicator set up to indicate movement of the valve/rocker on these 2V Ducati motors? The opening rocker blocks the valve/shim area, and the top of the rocker doesn't seem to be a good surface to place the indicator tip. Or is there some giant flaw in my thinking on this?
Nope, that's the way it is.
The end of the rod on my dial indicator unscrews. I unscrewed it and put a small washer on there. I then lined up the rod parallel but just to the side of the valve stem. There's enough real estate on the opener shim to have the washer ride on it's edge and not get in the way of the rocker.
Scott
Quote from: bergdoerfer on April 15, 2010, 12:18:03 PM
could you elaborate? :-[
Sure. Split the degree wheel up: 0 is TDC and on either side you have 1-179 Before TDC or After TDC depending on which side, and 180 or BDC. Let's say you read .050" lift at 29 BTDC on the upswing and then you read .050" at 38 ATDC on the down swing. (These are random numbers, I have no idea what the real values are supposed to be off hand.)
Where's the middle? Between the two points on the wheel in the section you rotate through. -29 + 38 = +9 or 9 ATDC for this made up example. That is, the peak lift occurs here. The tricky part comes in when you try to do the math and span different parts of the wheel with BTDC, ATDC, etc. Then if you try to do the second cylinder without setting TDC to zero you have to add or subtract 90 from all your angles. Then which way do you rotate the cam relative to what you need? And twice as many degrees as you're off because the cam goes around only once for each two revolutions of the crank shaft. Another benefit of making your own degree wheel is you can write all over it. :)
The basics of the process and the specifics of the math are laid out on other gear head sites. You don't need to be on a Duc motor to get the idea. Look around, they're out there. Also, just set it up and don't loosen anything. Find TDC, set your degree wheel, measure your lift as you rotate. Where does it start? End? Just looking at things won't do any harm. Once you see it all in front of you it will make so much more sense. Or maybe it is time I just pop the covers and do a pictorial. We'll see, lots of family stuff going on lately and not much time.
Scott
"Another benefit of making your own degree wheel is you can write all over it."
Well, Scott, I got my wheel from Chris and I still wrote all over it. [cheeky]
i've posted a couple of photos of my tool on my blog here - http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2010/04/some-photos-for-monster-list-of-dial.html (http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com/2010/04/some-photos-for-monster-list-of-dial.html)
it's a piece of coat hanger wire bent up. coat hanger wire is great for this stuff. dial indicator mounting bracket is a piece of bent steel and an from a dial gauge holder of some sort. make a solid stand. if it moves, it'll piss you off.
i only ever turn the engine one way too. never backwards when doing this. i set the belts to the normal running tension, never bother taking out the clearance and check lift at the spec of 1mm lift (0.040"). but that's just convention. using the calc centreline method it doesn't really matter how much lift you use as long as it's around that. some of the cams are assymetric so at some point you might get a shift due to that if you go with 3 or more mm lift as your check point.
Thanks for the pics Brad. I need to get some plate steel for dial mount. The heavy wire I used is ok but can move if you nudge the dial indicator.
Scott