Ducati Monster Forum

Some progress has been made.

999r stripped of it's former heart, in goes the ds motor (core).

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/DSC_0416.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/DSC_0417.jpg)

Already found one problem, going to need a machinist to fix this one:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/DSC_0419.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/DSC_0420.jpg)

Motor is from a 04 multi, so it bolted right up to the frame, and the width is correct.  What does not seem to be correct is the spacing between the rear motor mount bolt and the swingarm hole.  The 999r motor measures approx 4.25" between the spots, whereas the ds motor is 4.00.  You can see how the swingarm bolt appears to be centered, where it needs to be a bit lower to fit using the 999's pivot bolt blocks/washers.  I'm hoping I can find someone to machine some new ones.

Other minor issue I can see is the exhaust routing/rear suspension linkage.  A tight radius stainless donut ought to be able to give me the pieces I need to route around it.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/DSC_0418.jpg)

Wicked as always
I am sure you'll find someone to help fix your problems if you can't do it yourself.
So when you're done with it will you ship it to me here in Oz?

Very nice.  Someday I want to build something similar.  What is that swing arm off of?  It looks different than the normal 999 swinger.

999r (although all 999's from 05 on got the same arm)  [thumbsup]

About the pivot location, at least you're using a 999 frame.  It is the only SBK with oval mounts so all you have to do is machine a small insert (as you know).  The progress looks great and you can really start to get a sense of what it will look like.
 [thumbsup]

I can picture the headlight and the guages from the SR4t in the background on your 2V SBK.

+1

fun! glad to have another one of these projects to get ideas from and contribute ideas to.

Hey Theo,

 Looks like a very cool project. I was thinking of doing something similar but I wantd to use the 999 frame, tank, and tail unit and make it naked.

 I'm curious, have you given any thought to using the multi swingarm? Or maybe one from and S2/4R?

 Going with the 999 arm as it's lighter as an assembly (probably stiffer as well).  Since I'm using a multi motor, it's the same width as the sbk arm so no modding needed.  If you want to use a s*r arm, make sure you use the correct case/motor.

for anybody tuning in that is interested in the 2vSBK idea, my iteration is (slow going) over here: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.0), and is a 748/996/998 era frame.


also, i claim the rights to the name "testa aerea" or "air head Ducati" [laugh] - my spin on Testarossa (red head, a la Ferrari and MBP) and Testastretta (narrow head - a la Ducati 4v's) - but we can totally shop this out and brand a bunch of bikes with the logo, work with a decal group to have them done in Ducati font for the fairings - cost to use the name is exactly 1 moonpie (double decker). or an "across-the-interwebs" high-five.

Things that inspired me: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.msg649120#msg649120 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.msg649120#msg649120)
My progress so far: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.msg662676#msg662676 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36864.msg662676#msg662676)

Nice :)

I'd like to get ahold of kamena (sp?) but can't navigate their site worth a shit.  The US "dealer" has no info on it's page either....

I'm mainly after a fairing.  Or mount up a 1098-style front light and fairing...although I don't think I want to add that much weight.

It's Kämna / kaemna.de

What are you looking for? Is it a specific piece / on a bike / just the part in a picture?
I can take a look around for you...

http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=seite&seite=3 (http://www.kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=seite&seite=3)


or even better IMO
http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/products/Monocoque_-_Tailsections/Durbahn (http://shop.durbahn.de/shop/en/products/Monocoque_-_Tailsections/Durbahn)

(http://shop.durbahn.de/shopimgs/269.jpg)

All nice stuff, but all way more than I'd be willing to pay for looks.  I could never figure out if Durbahn made the stuff for K, or if they made it for him,...

In any case, a simple headlight up front is looking much better (and cheaper) than spending 6-700 for a small half fairing (by the time it gets shipped and painted).

Other idea was getting a top half 999 fairing from catalyst, and mounting it up/trimming it down until I got something I could use.  Use a HID projector w/high beam for the single headlight, and paint.  Prolly have 500 in it total after painting, and easier to replace should something get smashed/crashed.

kinda like i'm doing with the 848 fairing

Whats up Theo? Anything new to report on this build?

isn't the rear mount point that way to adjust the handling of the bike. ie you can raise or lower the rear with the eccentric up or down? loosen the front mount and pivot the frame on the motor to mount?

I've made minimal progress, just waiting on money at this point....

The swingarm pivot is non adjustable believe it or not, the case is only bored out enough to allow it in one spot.

I have talked with the german guys about how to locate the arm, they all say to machine the case.  Currently the pivot is too high, which will change the geometry.....but I"m not sure which way it would change it, nor if it would be bad or good.  A while back I found some RS 999 parts that actually RAISED the swingarm pivot, which is another mystery....unless the RS case was slotted.

The motor has to come apart anyway, so I need to decide on machine the cases, or machine a new locate tab, and go from there.  Since that is the next step, and it's going to cost me around 3k to have it done, I'm waiting on funds..... [bang]  Having to buy a new family SUV didn't help either.

The RS frame is/was nothing like the regular 999 frame. We've got Toseland's factory race bike at the AMS Alvarado shop, and the thing is nuts - parts of the frame are removable so you can take out the vertical head without dropping the motor, and that's not even close to the most crazy parts

There are two other motor mounts so there would be no movement at the swinger pivot

I've seen the peirbon frame up close and personal, it is pretty cool.  The removable part you speak of is additional bracing the 999 frames don't have.

It's not the frame I'm curious about, but the engine case.  If the RS case is slotted, it makes sense why the lower fitting is ovaled like it is....it would allow changes in the pivot height for setup.

you had the 999r motor right?

did it have the oval hole like you say?

here's a pic of the RS motor.. just a lower mount. so, just make new side plates to match your motor.

(http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/pic/gebrauchte/998rs.jpg)

I need to see how raising the swingarm up will affect the geometry of the bike before I do it.  The pivot hole is just bored in a different spot on the cases (at least from the 999r motor to a multistrada motor).

It would be much easier to just make new side plates, but it might not be the right way....

I suspect that raising the pivot point will affect the anti-squat a good amount, but since we arn't dealing with a fire breathing 200hp motor.....it might not translate into a problem. 

Changing the pivot height does effect the 'squat' character.
I don't think it's a big deal on a streetbike, but I've never had a bike with the facility to alter that...

I suspect that it's possible to machine the case to accept an oval spacer like the frame, so you could adjust it if you want.

i think the oval marking that you are describing, on the engine cases, is what i noted in my thread: the superbikes are drilled at the top and the 2v were drilled at the bottoms (or perhaps i have that backwards) - My solution was to source some 996 engine cases to migrate everything into - convenient since I'm splitting the cases and pretty much building the motor from the bottom up.

the 996 cases have the same cylinder stud spacing and you only have to drill a new locator pin hole in the cylinders for them to be squared up. So far, it looks like a pretty straightforward migration. I originally wanted a "deep sump" air cooled 2v, but no dice - the cylinder base gaskets showed that they were quite different.

for reference, i'm using an 02 900SSie motor.

my 95 m900 appears to have the hole bored in the center.  I just narrowed it because im copying the sbk style frames.

(http://i51.tinypic.com/znrgy0.jpg)

The monster and ss's (at least) are pretty close to center of the oval but sbk's are maybe 3/16" lower, enough to piss you off and cause problems

yes, that's what i remember finding out.

Short update...

Instead of shelling out nearly 3500 to build a motor, I'm now searching for a complete 1100DS motor.  I've found several in the 1500 range.  I want to prove the concept before I spend the entire budget.  I figure I can mod the 1100 case to use the SBK swingarm, get the thing running/driving/sorted out first.  That way if I hate it I can just part the bits out and go buy a 848  [laugh]

Looking for a 1100ds motor take out with harness/injection/ecu. 

what motors do you have now?

When I considered the 1000DS, the idle stepper motor was a bit of an issue. Just something to keep an eye on.

I've got a "core" 1000DS motor.  Needs to have the cases split, needs rods/pistons/bore work.  Gonna run me nearly 3K for all of it, + shipping + electronics.

I plan on having the ECU flashed, but at this time will be using injection due to the cost of split carbs + ignition ($1500 for starters) as opposed to a stock loom + tuned ecu ~$500.  Again, once it's up and running I can tinker till my heart is content.

oh i thought you had another 2v just sitting around just wasn't a big one.

since you have the potential to go really light with AL or Ti parts/subframe/etc.
I think the small cases are a little lighter and cheaper.

fyi theres a really well built 1000ds on the wera forum for sale.  i'll see if i can find the link [bacon]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For sale: Complete Ducati dualspark motor:

98mm Pistal Pistons, 12.5:1, (1078cc)
Cylinders bored and plated by Millenium Tech.
Carrillo Rods
Vee-Two Cams
MBP collets
Yoyodyne 38 deg Slipper w/sintered plates
Nichol's Flywheel
+1.5mm intake valves
Head porting by Mike Rich Motorsports

Approximately 1 season on engine, three weekends on slipper clutch

I built and maintained this engine. Its absolutely incredible. Oil changed and valves lashed after every weekend.

Dyno'd @ 97.5 hp on the FactoryPro dyno @ Cafe Racer Inc (kansas city). As a comparison, a stock 1000ds will make about 72-74hp on their dyno, a new stock 600 will make between 93-96.

I'm weary of constantly replacing rear tires on this thing, I moving down to cheaper bikes to race.

The first person to show up at my house with $2000 takes it. PM for more details

i'd be in like a thong if it was a 900 [bacon]

 :o

yeah thats alot of motor for 2 g.  a simlarly built 900ss was on there for sale at round 10g and put out 97 horse at the wheel and weighed 350lbs I would like to build a 800 like this and pop it into my monster and destroy sv's on the track [bacon]

not to get too off topic, but does the 803cc  of the M796/M800 fit in that class?

Thanks for the heads up, but I bet you it's long long gone..  11-20-10 :(

I would have bought that no questions...

Search continues...

aircooled bikes up to 899.  a 796 build would be great but its cheeper for me to buy a 800 motor and build it and put it in, i'm thinking.  i'll be putting magnesium wheels on and that should be good for a second and cheeper and easier than boring/building a 620 out to 700.  yeah i just noticed the date.  it was a hell of a deal for 2g just the pistons, slipper, and rods are bout 2 g.  i would have no problem buying rear tires for a bike like that if it fit in a class i wanted to race in.  it would have to race against 1098's, 1298's, big buells (while they last, about 2 laps then oil the track, pos'), rc51's, sv1000's, tlr's, etc. sorry to thread jack[bacon]

I've located a 08' hyper S motor.  Wiring harness, keys, ecu, dash.  No TB's

$1600 delivered.  Any surprises with that motor?  Dry clutch, right?

yes dry

no surprises that i've ever seen. great motor.

Were the Hyper motors narrow case as well?  Looking at the pics it resembles my 1000ds motor from the multi.

Would it matter if it's a multistrada motor?

Point being....bolting up the arm or having to mod the case :)

i do not know on either of those whether the height of the swingarm pivot relative to the rear motor mount is same as monster or like SBK.

if you get a MTS1200 motor, you'll have "998" power with a really nice maintenance schedule [cheeky]


not 2v, i know

Someone else can confirm, but I'm pretty sure all 1000DS motors are the same.

Don't care about the height, curious about the width of the case for swingarm fitment...

Wouldn't a change in the height between the two affect geometry?

It would, yeah. It would be easier to make the cases narrow than to relocate the hole.

I have a 1000DS Multistrada in my garage and 996 cases on my floor. I can take a look and see the width of the MTS motor. Not sure how well I'll be able to see the height. I supposed I could measure relative to the engine mount points.

just to the top rear motor mount, front and rear motor mount distance is identical on all

the swingarm pivot hole is drilled in an elliptical region. one is higher than the other, i forget which is which, but i remember discovering it with the 900 engine+cases and the 996 cases i have.

the position of the hole on the rear elliptical changes the rear suspension geometry by changing the angle of the swingarm.

Generally speaking, raising the pivot point of the arm will increase the anti-squat properties.

That being said, I can always come back and change the pivot location by machining the cases. 

I'm much more curious:

- does the 08 hyper 1100ds motor have a narrow case or wide?

- Is there a difference between the multi 1100 motor and the hyper?

The pics I'm looking at of the motor seem to show a case that is narrow, without bearings in the pivot point.  I can overcome the problem of narrowing the cases if need be, but it would be great to be able to avoid that altogether :)

The "core" motor I've got supposedly came from a multi, and has the narrow case (04 1000ds)

What about the S2 and S4 engine cases? Are they wide (monster) or narrow (sbk)?

TAft, have you began to think about how you will route the exhaust?

Cheers and keep the good stuff coming! [thumbsup]

Just have to clear up with the seller what the width of the case is, and then it will be headed my way.

I was told it is 138.7mm, which if I recall is the required measurement for the SBK swingarm.  The confusing part is I was told there are bearings in the case.....but according to the parts diagram here the bearings are in the swingarm.
http://issuu.com/ducatiomaha/docs/hm1100s_usa_08_ed00?viewMode=magazine&mode=embed (http://issuu.com/ducatiomaha/docs/hm1100s_usa_08_ed00?viewMode=magazine&mode=embed)

Bearings in arm = SBK width if I'm not mistaken.  I just want to make sure I end up with something usable....the hyper is so weird in a bunch of normally common measurements.

You're correct about bearings in swingarm being SBK setup. I'd have to look at my MTS and/or S4RS to see if the bearings are in the swingarm or cases on those ones, though.

I think the S4RS is a narrow case motor though, no?

You would think....but no.

S4R testa motor is a wide case, nearly 7" wide (rough with a tape at an angle).  The DS1000 motor I've got here that came from a multi is approx 5.5".  The ST4s (if anyone cares) is wide case...cause I stuck a S2r arm on one to see....

That's very interesting.

take a look at the parts guide for the HM and see if you can tell from there?

Confirmed....hyper motor = SBK width. 

Will order the 08' hyper S motor Monday morning, complete with electronics, ecu/keys :)

So I have a few sets of triples, trying to figure which set to use.

749R triples, cast lower, adjust to 30mm offset

Section 8 billet 27mm offset triples.

The 749R triples are 1.2lbs LIGHTER than the Section 8 ones.

Any reason NOT to use the OEM/749R triples?  Sure they don't look as cool.  Do 749R race guys swap out the triples for aftermarket ones for stiffness reasons?

I would go with the 30m R triples.
I think a lot of superbike guys go to the 30mm to slow down the steering a bit and make it more stable. I think that's what i read on the superbike forum

More offset = less trail.

Generally, that means quicker handling.

Dunno what the racers are running, if they're swapping them out it's usually to change the geometry.

I'm mainly interested if the racers have had issues with the case lower on the 749R triple.  I don't see the point in adding 1.2 lbs to the front end unless it's going to benefit the bike somehow ie: stiffer front end.

I am seeing lots of people running at or under the magic number "30mm".  My Ducshop triples are 30mm, but now they are doing 28mm.

I put a new design top triple from IMA on my Monster - the new "MOD4" style - it has eccentric bushes so the user can change the offset to their liking from 25-31mm, and is skeletonized up top, and has reliefs on the top as well to reduce chattering. Cool stuff - way more tech than my M900 really can use, but in a track-oriented SBK it would be really great. Also, they are lighter than the Section 8's for sure.   Not sure if you are in a 'buying' mood, or a use-what-you-got mood... but the test riders for the IMA triples said the improvements were noticeable, and one broke the lap record during a test (not sure if it was on Ledenon in France, or on Lombardore in Italy)

I'd love to commission the build of a set of mag triples from the ingots I already have....but for the time being I'm going to use what I already have. 

No realy updates at the moment.  I've got to finish putting the monsters heads and jugs back on after it munched on something.  That will be this week.  Once that is done I will be freed up to go all out on the 2v sbk project.

I went with the triples from the 749R.  They are a full pound less than the aftermarket billet pieces.  Gotta save where I can!

[thumbsup]

Sounds like you've got a project similar to mine going on. I've got a 999R with 749R geometry and 1100DS motor in it. Here is my solution to the pivot issue on right compared to the original on the left. Other than that the Hyper motor dropped right in... well after cutting the cross bar out of the frame where the throttle bodies sit  :)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5039/5818215870_714e20f6f0_b.jpg)

Yup, made up a set (actually a bunch) of those as well.

My TB's seem to fit in there with the cross bar in place.  I removed the stepper/idle motor though.

Interesting. I couldn't get them to fit at all so I just cut it off. Thinking about doing a removable carbon support instead, but it probably isn't even needed considering the power is being reduced enormously from what the chassis is designed for.

I think you are over complicating it with a removable carbon support.   [thumbsup]


I wouldn't leave it out though....The thing is going to still have a ton of traction/load on it in the corners, who cares about the missing 30hp on the top end/straight.

Top end is no worry, but the R motor has quite a bit more torque than the 1100 so the loads on the chassis are going to be far different. I have no way to calculate what is or isn't needed though so it is all speculation until I can feel the chassis flex or not on the track!

I had a custom carbon monocoque tail made as well as a Falcon dash reprogrammed with custom software so it will run with the single direction CAN of the 1100 system. This bike is all about over thinking! That's what makes it fun though.

errr...749R motor has more torque than a 1100? :-\  Last I checked a 999S with a full system makes about 4 ft-lbs more than a near stock 1100 motor.  (edit...I see you removed a 999R motor...no clue on that as I've only built/ridden a 999r that had lots of motor work)

Sounds like some impressive parts you are putting on it.  I'm just going to use a tach that works, probably a nemesis, and get down the road  ;D

999RS uses removable / bolt-in frame members.  Allows a head to be removed easily without dropping the motor, etc.   That thing makes gobs and gobs and gobs and gobs of torque.

Bumpage :)

Bike is a complete roller now.  Problem I'm running into is making a decision on how to make it run.  I can't fit the hyper TB's without chopping the frame crossmember....which I'd rather avoid.  I'm not sure what to do about the ignition if I go with FCR's either.

I'm at a cross roads....it's time to either finish this thing or break it down and sell it piece by piece.  A lightweight 749R chassis sure seems like it would be a ton of fun...

finish it! It's been 2 years+. You can do it, be a man. haha.

Any new pictures of it with the engine in?

(http://www.damnlol.com/i/8f620259b7d7231759f2a232e0c6de58.jpg)
 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]


Chopped the cross member on my 748/916 frame.
(http://codeherrings.com/images/moto/ducati/speciale/frame.jpg)

And replaced it with a diagonal rod (black/grey under the intakes).
(http://codeherrings.com/images/moto/ducati/speciale/battery_carbs.jpg)

If you're really concerned about frame stiffness, you could weld another rod. As far as I can tell, there's no need.

nice.   i will save these pitchers to refer to later

I keep thinking that i'd like to see someone adapt the sbk TBs instead of cutting the frame for the 2v TBs

Almost all my photos are here: http://codeherrings.com/images/moto/ducati/speciale/ (http://codeherrings.com/images/moto/ducati/speciale/) There's other stuff if you want to look around, just watch for the hidden pr0n folder...   [evil]  [laugh]


If the injectors have the same specs it's doable (as far as I understand). If they don't, you would need to re-calculate a bunch of parameters and re-program the ECU accordingly. Cut & weld seems so much easier. [beer]

i have 999 shower injectors to try with  [evil]

I couldn't find the hidden pr0n folder....it is labeled Regina De Cuori or something like that?

Well, there is no going back.  Before we left Moscow I dispatched a letter to.... oh crap. 

No seriously, the frame is cut now.  TB's are in.  I also made some decent progress.  Calipers are bolted up (radial brembos), rotors are bolted up (iron braketech).  Fender is on (forgot the 999 mounts before everything else goes on ...DOH!). 

I also got the rear brake master, rear sets, clip ons, and shifter worked out.  Gonna have to order one 90deg fitting for the brake lines to work at the front master, and also figure out WTF I'm supposed to do to route the rear brakeline for the underslung caliper....

All in all, I've made more progress on the bike today than in the past year.  I'm excited, and moving forward hopefully this week I can have a good idea of the wiring/routing and where I'm going to put the ECU, battery, blah blah.

zzzzzzipties.

(http://www.ties2pillows.com/images/products/t13484.jpg)

[clap] [thumbsup]

Get a small LiFePO battery (Shorai, Ballistic,...). It'll make your life much easier!


On the 916 it's up from the master, between the fender and the shock (or in front of the shock if you don't have a fender), on top of the chain cover, then down to the caliper right before the sprocket.

No battery.  No Starter.  Get race starter.

Glad to see some progress in this thread but...

(http://www.tunerfriends.com/forums/images/smilies/set2/ttiwwop.gif)

What did you do for the motor/frame/swingarm setup? I see your "oops" photo showing them not line up, but no more photos to elaborate.

Did you remove bosses from the cases? What about the alignment issue?

I think this is the photo you're talking about.
(http://codeherrings.com/images/moto/ducati/speciale/no_likey_01.jpg)
Found a good welder thanks to Artful and had him do a bit of cut & paste on the frame.

This photo should illustrate the problem better (this is before doing any work).
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-B5Xm6oEU6dg/Te58jyXD62I/AAAAAAAAAP8/mdT2mpvubnE/s800/frame_fitment.jpg)

I took care of the engine cases with a cutter wheel and narrowed them down to the necessary width for the SBK swingarm to fit.


EDIT: Found where I went over these issues on my build thread: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46971.45 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46971.45)

Thanks for the speedy reply!

My plan is to leave the frame as is, and try to deal with the hole through some sort of boss or filler bore.

Ideally I'd like to get the motor setup similarly to a 4V motor so it wouldn't need the one frame. I like your idea, though.

Decisions, decisions!

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/20120922_112330_zps3939f813.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/20120922_112338_zpsaee04daa.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/2V%20SBK/20120922_112354_zps90b719ba.jpg)

 [drool]

My name is Jack Daniels and I approve this message!!!

Lookin Good!! But you really need a Ti frame ;D

really digging the naked 749/999 look  [thumbsup]
You got a multi? Nice!