Ducati Monster Forum

Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping you'll be able to help me.

First year on my S2R 800. I'm getting to a stage in my riding skills where I can feel whether it's me or the bike that limits safe riding in the twisties.
Sometimes the bike is reacting poorly to uneven surfaces or throttle/brake work, other times it's just me doing the wrong things.

My dealer turned the rear suspension two turns (=2mm?) and slowed the rebound by two clicks (it was 18 down from the slowest). That made things better, but the bike is still kind of all over the place. I've noticed that when I sit on the bike the headlights are pointing more upwards - doesn't that mean that the rear spring is still too soft? I'm thinking I need a new spring, one that's built for my weight.

A suspension guru turned the rebound from 16 to 6 clicks from the slowest - "that should help a little bit". I think it did, but it's obvious to me (a noob) that the front is also way to soft. The guru described the S2R 800 front suspension this way: "wow - there's nobody home - this bike is dangerous to drive at speed". He was referring to his own size (I guess weighing about 165 - I'm 230).

Total rebuild, parts (the guru mostly uses WP parts?) and labour, front and rear is guesstimated at $2K. Everything has a higher price here in Norway - bear that in mind.

Does this sound fair and is it worth it? I think that if I'm keeping this bike for years it's worth it - hell, I'll also get the DP 4 piston calipers brake upgrade. Good/better brakes for $900 isn't too bad, is it?

Of course I'm thinking about getting a bigger bike with more adjust-abilities, but I guess the need for rebuilding to my weight will still be there(?)

What do you guys think is the best way to attack this challenge ???

Save the money and buy a couple hundred $$$ worth of hockey equipment.  Play hard twice or three times a week and your weight will melt off.  I've got a stock 05 S2R800 and weigh 195.  I firmed up the back end as well - I had excess rear sag. Unless your really tall, you should get your weight down, not accomodate it by modding the moto.  I'm not a health nut or a prick dissing on you or anything, just old enough and have seen how these things can go.

Sell your bike and get an S4RS. I think that for a guy your size, putting that money in to the 800 would be like putting earrings on a pig. I ride an S2R800 myself and I love the bike because it really is a great bike. However you will outgrow the power curve, especially at your size. I'm right at 160lbs. and although the suspension seems lacking, it's fine for me right now. What happens if you put all that cash into the bike then realize you have outgrown the power? Just seems like a lot of hassle to me. S2R1ks are adjustable as well, so you could go that route. Just my opinion but if you want to go faster safely then you need a new bike.

This is the tech board isn't it [laugh]
I'm 6'4" and excess weight is 20 above lean weight (= 15% body fat). I'm loosing weight all the time, working as a personal trainer, and won't stop until I'm lean - weighing about 210. Unfortunately that will still be too much for the 800 - which might not be a very well equipped bike to begin with. It might be OK for careful riding, but my point is that if it's going to satisfy any long term expectations it just might require better parts - regardless of weight.

You see, the S4RS is a $17,000 upgrade due to Norwegian taxes. Even with the cheaper 1K it's still a difference of $6,000.
Both alternatives will require new springs to be optimal, the 1K probably a full rebuild as for the 800.

I've been riding with the superbike crowd and I'm not totally convinced that I'll ever need more power on the road. Knowing I'm able to get more is not enough to convince me that I must.

From looking at his avatar, I didn't think stopintime was going to be losing a *lot* of weight.  ;D

Even at 210, you're well beyond the springs on an S2R800.

Rear shock can be replaced for about $1k US.
Not sure how much can be done with the forks, but heavier springs and thicker oil will get you a lot closer.
Not knowing how much work the guru is planning, but $1k into the forks should be a big improvement.

I'm about 165#, and I've ridden a stock S2R800.
I wouldn't say it's dangerous, but it's definitely undersprung for me.

Front springs of about 1.0 kg/mm, and rear spring of 11.5 kg/mm should be about right for you.

Even at 210, most any bike you buy will need respringing, so trading up to an S2R1k or S4R won't save you all that much.
They do have better components than the 800, but IMO they won't be correct without some work.

The guru mentioned new springs, new rear shock, other valves up front, heavier fluids and something about optimizing shims(?). The price will probably be the same on a 1K and maybe a little less on a S4R/-S. I just need to spend the summer riding before I decide on the engine size I'm choosing - not spending anything until I'm sure which bike I will be on for several years.

The 1k would likely be good power for you.

I've *gently* ridden a customer's S4Rt, and that's a *lot* of power, IMO, too much.
Depends how you ride...

I've never heard anyone saying they really need/use the power of an S4R on the road, although I'm sure it CAN be fun at times. Personally I think it could get me into more trouble than I want. On the other hand the 1k seems to be a more sensible upgrade, especially considering the price difference I have to deal with.

Thank you for your input Speeddog, my gut feeling right now is pointing towards a 1k and start working from there.

I'm 99% sure an upgraded shock for an S2R800 will bolt straight on to an S2R1k.

Just to complicate things for you.  ;D

used S2R 1k shock
$350 in Fork oil, valves and springs.
+ weekend off = brand new bike. i spent 600 and had someone do it in a few hours

Nice try to confuse me, but even if I could move the rear parts onto a 1k - the work on the front might not be as easy to move.
For now the 800 is plenty fast enough, but if Ducati is changing the design on all Monsters I want to get "my" future bike before it's too late. That consideration plus the expected want/"need" a little more power + better brakes, is the reason why I might get the 1k sooner than I normally would.

jsut a Q why cant you just order from a US retailer? or get a fiend to mail it from the states?

I'm not able to figure out the correct parts for me and the bike - or to do any of the work myself. If I do this the result must be close to optimal and I need the/one guru to do the work and follow up. He's probably quite low on labour if he sells me the overpriced parts, so the total shouldn't be too bad. Do you think $2k is extreme for a total rebuild front and rear?

 Ummmm...yeah.

 At a buck 95 your still way to heavy for what Ducati intended the suspension on an S2R to handle. They are set up for riders around 150lbs. Anything more than 175 and your really asking the suspension to do something it can't possible do. Also keep in mind that you may be 195 but once you add in the weight of your riding gear your prolly adding another 15-20 lbs.

Upgrading the suspension is a good idea IF you plan to keep the bike for a while. Quality suspension components are not a cheap upgrade but IMO it's worth it if you ride the bike hard.

 I just upgraded the stock rear shock on my S2R1K to a fully adjustable Showa from a 1098 and the difference could ony be measured in light years.

 The only problem with the 1098 shock is that it's about 3/4 of an inch shorter than the stock shock that came on the S2R. You can make up the difference with the ride height adjustment.

 The most cost effective solution is to replace the rear shock with something fully adjustable and add the proper spring for your weight and then source some fully adjustable front forks at the same time. The GSXR fork swap that has gained popularity lately is a nice inexpensive option providing you replace the springs in the forks with the right rate. The bonus with this setup is that you'll also get the radial front brakes as well which is something you mentioned in the OP.

 If you look around you could probably find a used set of GSXR forks on Ebay for a few hundred and the I just bought my 1098 shock for $100. With adding the correct springs front and rear you might be able to do the whole thing for around $600-$800 if you install it all yourself.

 

you don't need to spend that much cash for suspension work.  Just order some stiffer springs and put heavier weight oil in the forks.  I've done it on my dirtbikes, its easy.  I can give you advice on doing the work, but really all you need to do is take the end caps off and replace the springs.  The rear shock is easy enough to just put a stiffer spring on too.  I have no idea what size springs are on our bikes, but getting wp springs should be fairly cheap.  Maybe 300$ at most for front and rear springs.  Oil is really cheap....   

You could always pick up a set of SBK forks on Ebay and an S4R shock.  Search around on the board, this discussion has been beaten to death.

S2R needs frame modification to fit the S4R shock, no?

Yes, cut and grind starter coil braket, repaint the piece of frame, and relocate the coil to next to the shock mount.  All things you can do yourself.

I have the same bike and I'm talking with "e-mailing" http://www.hyperprousa.com about replacement fork springs and a new rear spring to match my weight.    You should give them a call and see if they will ship to you.

OK - Fix the forks AND buy hockey equipment: 6-4, 210 is perfect defensman size.  I play drop-in hockey with two Norweigians: One of them is my size and the other is your size.  The big guy is definately one of the best defensemen out there.   The 'fix the forks' comment was the Tech part of my reply.

Fast alpine skiing, strength training (squats mainly) and the occasional cardio work out for me. Give me a call (and air plane ticket) I'll join you for some hockey 8)  Say hi to the other Norwegians for me? If they mess up at hockey you can shout "fittetryne" - fit-a-tree-neh. Make sure you smile when you say that ;)

And make sure they have skates on and you have running shoes on.  [thumbsup]

Or that you're 7' / 350 lb.

Thanks for the tip.  Hans (the big Norwegian) brings 8 or so bottles of beer in a little cooler, into the changeroom and passes them around after the game.  He refers to the beer in the cooler as the 'church key'.  Apparently this is an old Norwegian saying?  I certainly don't get it.

Something about seeing "the light" maybe - new to me too.

Speeddog, you have the proper dictionary?

Not sure if I've got the proper dictionary or not.
I googled "fittetryne norwegian".
From what I saw, it seemed it would certainly get a reaction from a Norwegian.

Wow!  there is some pretty expensive advice being thrown around on this thread.  I'm sure for a couple of grand you can do all kinds of nice suspension mods but apparently they won't work on "fat" guys' bikes anyways. [roll]

I weigh about 245lbs.  (okay..so I'm fat...BITE ME!).  I also ride an 800 and found it too soft.  I haven't done anything to the rear except crank the preload way up to compensate for my weight but the front was fairly easy to fix.

I noticed the S2R800 felt like it was wandering compared to the 1K I had also tried before I bought and the dealer suggested stiffer fork springs.  There isn't a specific spring listed for the S2R800 but my dealer installed these.  He races a 999 and does okay so I trusted him to know what he was doing.  I notice a definite improvement with them. I think the springs were about $120 Cdn and the dealer took about an hour to install them.

Racetech p/n   FRSP S3732 095 
37.0 X 34.5 X 315 mm long   .95 kg/mm  spring rate

Here is a link to the Racetech spring rate calculator:  http://www.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Ducati&yr=00-01&ml=900%20Monster&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork

I'm not fat, I'm really not fat, I have heavy bone structure - my mom told me so [laugh] [laugh]

As I posted earlier, I'm closing in on the skill level and riding style that require really good/customized suspension. I plan on staying alive and healthy even if I ride hard. I want the bike to be better than I am, so it doesn't surprise me when I approach MY limits. I want my bike to swallow a surprise in the twisties without sending me into disaster. Does this make sense?

If I have done my homework, listening carefully to everything I hear, considering the background of the advisors, leaving out the "do like a buddy of mine did" advice AND being critically open minded - this is MY take for NOW on MY bike for ME:
To work well for a heavy rider the springs must be changed, it's not enough to preload them - they will be too short.
No GSXR, SBK, 1k, S4RS parts will be "perfect" for me - at the very least I will have to get new springs anyway.
The shocks must be rebuild/changed to work properly, heavier oil is not enough on it's own if the valves are way off.

With my need for a one-stop place to turn to I think the gurushop is the choice for me. Everything will be custom fitted, calculated, documented and under warranty. Of course, only after deciding which bike I'm sticking with for the next 3-5 years. 

You're being way more pragmatic than the average Duc rider, but if it works for you, that's fine.  [laugh]

Seriously, IMO, you've got the right plan.  [thumbsup]

Thanks, I value your comments.

I like your plan but being 1 a cautious tinkerer and 2 newly risk averse to spending money unnecessarily I'd recommend the following tweak.  If you're considering a WP Rear then first buy the WP spring appropriate for your weight and ride it first. 

If it gets you what you want/need great problem solved.  If it doesn't then at least you've narrowed down one of the critical variables you'd need to work through to properly define what you are looking for.  The spring itself would then just be put on the WP shock of your choice (if I recall they build to spec like Penske/race tech) since regardless of using old or buying new the spring will have to be for your weight.

My .02

Cheers

So, you're saying that the stock shock of the S2R800 MIGHT be good enough? If that could be right I would save important money, but I doubt that it will be slow enough and it does not have compression adjustment - only rebound. Thoughts?

Hard to tell since your spring and weight are so far out of range.  If it were ME -- After I got the forks resprung and sorted out then I'd buy the WP spring.  I'd get sag and baseline set and then ride.  Make some adjustments (though limited) and then ride some more.  By the end of a weekend I would know for sure whether I NEEDED the new shock and would be able to accurately convey to the specialist what I was lacking and wanted in the new one.

What I've learned the hard way over the past 3 years of mods on my S2R is not to assume I need the more expensive upgrade.  I've redone things 2 or 3 times on some parts of my bike where if I'd taken a more cautious approach I'd have gotten it right sooner and cheaper.

I like your thinking COWBOY.  I thinks that's what I was trying to say.  (Albeit a bit clumsily!  [roll]  )

mprovement with them. I think the springs were about $120 Cdn and the dealer took about an hour to install them.

Racetech p/n   FRSP S3732 095 
37.0 X 34.5 X 315 mm long   .95 kg/mm  spring rate

Here is a link to the Racetech spring rate calculator:  http://www.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Ducati&yr=00-01&ml=900%20Monster&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork

[/quote]

So you used the 900 CC monster?  Does it use the same forks?

 I don't think so.

I believe the 900 used Showa forks and the S2R800 uses Marzocchi but AFAIK they are the same diameter.  I  never saw both springs side by side as the dealer did the install but I got the old springs back in the box that the new springs came in.  The part number I posted came straight off the box.  I've put 6000kms on the bike since and nothing has blown up yet.  [cheeky]

I got the impression from my dealer that he has made this mod for many of his customers.

Maybe a real guru can chime in here and confirm?