after getting a stock ecu reflashed to DP ecu, i chopped an airbox lid and purchased a KN high performance filter, and installed them both this weekend. this worked fine saturday and then the first part of sunday. however coming home on sunday in the evening (temps still in the 90's and humid), in city stoplight driving, it died on me about five or six times (i lost count) in a 10-15 minute period. temps on the gauge read around 220-225; not sure if this was related. what would happen would be i would be stopped at a stoplight, and then i start to accelerate from the light in first, and the revs dip down and climb as normal, but right about 3k rpms, there's this "cough" sound i can hear coming from the intake, and it dies. same each time...somewhere right around 3k. but for hours before that, i was running around the city and had no issues with dying (though was riding it much more aggressively ;) ). i took it out again yesterday AM for a quick run for coffee with a friend, and neither there or back had any issues with dying.
it's worth noting though that i noticed this "cough" a long long time ago, even with stock airbox and filter, and stock ecu. there was this spot at 3k where it would just cough or stumble briefly, and then continue on through the revs (though never died before). i would notice it a lot in city driving, where i would be making a left or right turn from a light, easy on the throttle...and would hit that stumble. it's a pretty disconcerting feeling just suddenly losing power.
so, i'm just curios if others have experienced this or heard of it happening? anyone have an idea of what the cause is? fuel trim? i've had the DP-flashed ecu installed now for a couple weeks; it wasn't until the choped lid and new filter that it died. i'm still trying to figure out how to use a vdst and get it to reliably talk to my ecu so that i can fatten up the fuel trim... so maybe that's all that's causing this? i got a PASS message on saturday when attempting to reset the TPS, so afaik that part is done.
and crap..i meant this for the tech section. if someone wants to move it that's cool
I've been browsing the Tech section looking for ideas on this same kind of issue. I've noticed three or four times now on my 2002 750s, I'll be in first, accelerating and about 3k RPM's it'll feel like and electrical short or "cough" and then pick back up and run without a problem after. At first after this would happen my oil temp readings would then bounce all over. I tightened the oil temp sensor and thought I had fixed it, but after I fueled up yesterday, as I took off from the red light it happened again. Though now I don't have the oil temp fluctuations so I am not convinved the two were ever related. I'll be checking back to see what folks say
Have either of you considered the possibility of bad gasoline. I just recovered from a bout with bad fuel, quite similar symptoms. Takes a couple tanks to pass. Also, if the valves need an adjustment it will do that coughing through the airbox at part throttle crap.
Fuel: I suppose that's possible; I just filled up at a shell by my place that I've used many times before. But would that be suspect when it's at the same rpm every time?
Valves: bike has about 25k miles, and had valves inspected by a very respected ducati tech one year ago (4 or 5k miles ago) he said all looked well and I don't believe he made any adjustments (though I would have to dig out the invoice to make sure)
All I'm saying is I'd get that coughing and farting through the airbox(I have the DP ECU/airbox) at 3.5-4.5k rpms and really the only thing that definitively solved it was a valve adjustment. I too had taken my bike to a VERY reputable dealer(as in won the award for being second best on the East Coast even though not anywhere near the coast) in the DC area and was told the valves were checked but when I broke it open it soon became apparent that they weren't. Sometimes you've got to see for yourself. That's why Ducatis are such great bikes. They turn riders into mechanics. I got the valves adjusted myself, and poof no funny stuff thereafter. Your bike is likely struggling to breathe. I'd make sure the valves are opening and closing as they should be and compression is being maintained in both cylinders before I'd go trying to trim up the fuel. Have you even pulled the plugs to note their condition? This could confirm/deny your suspicion that the bike is lean.
Also I might add, that valves having been checked a year ago and observed to be within spec, could now be nicely out of spec, depending upon just how within spec they were observed to be one year ago. Make sense? It's a Ducati. Check them again to be 100%.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on June 02, 2010, 04:27:39 AM
All I'm saying is I'd get that coughing and farting through the airbox(I have the DP ECU/airbox) at 3.5-4.5k rpms and really the only thing that definitively solved it was a valve adjustment. I too had taken my bike to a VERY reputable dealer(as in won the award for being second best on the East Coast even though not anywhere near the coast) in the DC area and was told the valves were checked but when I broke it open it soon became apparent that they weren't. Sometimes you've got to see for yourself. That's why Ducatis are such great bikes. They turn riders into mechanics. I got the valves adjusted myself, and poof no funny stuff thereafter. Your bike is likely struggling to breathe. I'd make sure the valves are opening and closing as they should be and compression is being maintained in both cylinders before I'd go trying to trim up the fuel. Have you even pulled the plugs to note their condition? This could confirm/deny your suspicion that the bike is lean.
Also I might add, that valves having been checked a year ago and observed to be within spec, could now be nicely out of spec, depending upon just how within spec they were observed to be one year ago. Make sense? It's a Ducati. Check them again to be 100%.
the plugs i can check after work. the valves are another story. i've never even popped off the valve cover before (is that something i can do without an oil mess on my hands?). unfortunately i don't even have a garage nor stands (nor do i have valve feeler guides/gauges); though i can probably bug a friend or two to use one of theirs. all that said, though, i absolutely think he checked them all; he's not known for taking shortcuts. he's currently just working out of his rather large garage, and has a very loyal following in our local dfw group. i will get the invoice out later today and i can report what his measurements were for all the valves (though i won't personally know what they mean...well, i know what they mean but i don't know what's good/bad).
it only did it when the engine was really hot and never did it again?
have you had the bike to the same temp without the problem?
in other words, I'm trying to find out if the problem was there since you installed the ecu but because you never reached certain temperature it did do it before.
have you had the tps reseted and co adjusted after you installed the ecu?
Sorry to semi thread jack, but I'll take a shot in case I by chance add something not already mentioned.
I don't know about McKraut, but my issue is extremely random and very occasional. I imagine if the issue is being caused by valves out of spec I'd be able to replicate it. I almost wonder if it's related to when I fuel up, like maybe I'm over filling the tank and it's causing a sporadic flow issue, or because I have an aftermarket fuel cap (De Pretto Moto) if the system needed to re-establish proper vacuum after it's been opened for fueling up? My unfamiliarity with the Ducati fuel system leaves me at a disadvantage.
I still maintain that what it felt like on my monster was more of an electric short, like I lost spark for two or three revolutions and then picked back up again. But I suppose if it were a brief interuption in fuel delivery it would act the same way.
Quote from: devimau on June 02, 2010, 07:46:17 PM
it only did it when the engine was really hot and never did it again?
have you had the bike to the same temp without the problem?
in other words, I'm trying to find out if the problem was there since you installed the ecu but because you never reached certain temperature it did do it before.
have you had the tps reseted and co adjusted after you installed the ecu?
temps: yes, so far it's only done it that once, though i've only ridden a few times since last weekend. this (sunday PM) was the first time i saw 220's i *think*... but i know i've been close to that before since installing the ecu... like 21x. i've seen plenty of super hot temps pre-flashed ecu (i live in dallas tx), well into the 220's.
tps reset: i've tried many times so far with a vdst for a 5AM ecu, and it's been spotty thus far. i have been able to receive the "PASS" message for TPS reset though, a couple of times. so, if that's all that's required for TPS reset than i *think* that has happened.
fuel trim: haven't been able to adjust it yet... so far it just looks "greyed out" in the vdst software (engine running). so fuel mapping/trim is still whatever DP spec is
Maybe it is something simple, like a loose earth bolt on the ecu or the engine block.
Quote from: errazor on June 03, 2010, 10:31:06 AM
Maybe it is something simple, like a loose earth bolt on the ecu or the engine block.
that's a valid point but if the bike does it @ an specific temperature I will suspect on co adjustment.
the hotter it get the leaner it gets and if you only reseted the tps and never checked co % there's a big chance that the bike is not running as balanced as it should be and might be causing the bike to stall due to a lean condition.
I'd balance the co% before I do anything else.
My bike has been doing this for the past few days -- when its been reeeeeally humid here in Raleigh.
I have the airbox removed and K&N filters fit, with Boom Tubes.
BTW, my Boom Tubes have been popping like mad on decel recently.
Also, I'm waiting on a local guy to fit a PCIII and dyno tune my bike.
i will try to get the vdst hooked up again today or tomorrow and see if i can get that fuel trim adjusted. i haven't had any luck so far. i may send it back and have them reflash it, just to make sure it truly is flashed to DP spec because thus far everything looks greyed out in the vdst software. i'll also pull the plugs and see how they're looking and post up the valve measurements as of last year (i know... it's probably not that helpful to look at measurements a year old, but i don't have the ability to take measurements on my own.).
valves a little over a year ago measured (to be honest i don't even know what the unit of measurement is):
Front
exhaust: 77
intake: 56
exhaust: 66
intake: 66
Rear
exhaust: 66
intake: 66
exhaust: 66
intake: 77
I think the units are 10-4 inches. [laugh]
I am having a very similar problem. 03 M800. Only when its hot out, temp at about 210-220. Spitting and sputtering at about 3.5-4.5K, when the bike is cold its as smooth as silk.
Im leaning towards valves, The bike has 10K on it, valves never even checked as far as i know i just bought it. Im wondering what effect heat has on the valves as far as expanding and changing tolerances while we ride? Just a thought....
Quote from: boosted_dc2 on June 05, 2010, 04:36:38 AMIm leaning towards valves, The bike has 10K on it, valves never even checked as far as i know i just bought it
Smart thinking - I had one tight opener and three loose closers, after shim replacement it was like a brand new bike.
I think the posters in this thread will end up having to face the music and adjust their valves. It might still be bad gasoline, and the only way to rule it out is to ride a few tanks, but if the cylinder heads aren't breathing correctly it's valve time. CO and loose wires aren't the issue. OP's bike has 25k on it! And those valve measurements don't make sense. Get them checked by somebody who knows what they're doing already.
he knows what he's doing, i just don't know what the measurements mean. and that valve check/adjustment was only a few thousand miles ago... i'm still leaning towards fuel adjustments. going to see what it's like once it's fattened up, and then see about having the valves checked again.
When valves are out of spec they are out of spec always, and the motor runs poorly through the band. At least on my bike the thing runs great except for the intermittent issue. I'm still leaning toward wiring or TPS myself.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on June 05, 2010, 06:15:28 AM
Smart thinking - I had one tight opener and three loose closers, after shim replacement it was like a brand new bike.
I think the posters in this thread will end up having to face the music and adjust their valves. It might still be bad gasoline, and the only way to rule it out is to ride a few tanks, but if the cylinder heads aren't breathing correctly it's valve time. CO and loose wires aren't the issue. OP's bike has 25k on it! And those valve measurements don't make sense. Get them checked by somebody who knows what they're doing already.
how can you be so sure? I wish I had the same crystal ball you have man, I really do.
Quote from: devimau on June 05, 2010, 02:59:06 PM
how can you be so sure? I wish I had the same crystal ball you have man, I really do.
Reality is no one can be sure until the valves are checked, and, if the valves are too tight nothing else you do will work, plus you will eventually have expensive damage.
Quote from: devimau on June 05, 2010, 02:59:06 PM
how can you be so sure? I wish I had the same crystal ball you have man, I really do.
No crystal ball, but my own experience with the same
exact trouble is the basis for my assertions. Again, OPs bike has
25k miles on it.
25k. To establish a baseline for these engines, the very first step is to ensure the valves are opening and sealing as they should. Just a fraction of a fraction off and they misbehave. I thought it was a simple fueling issue too until I wasted time trying to fuel out a valvetrain that was out of whack. I apologize for trying to save the OP some trouble.
you have a good reason to say that, don't apologize, but if the valves were tight you'll see the problem from 170 and above and he has no issues till 210 or so, that what's leaning me towards the tuning and also that he said he had them checked recently (eventhough those numbers make no sense) and the bike started to stall after he installed the dp flasud ecu and also that I saw another post were he was saying that the vdst wasn't working for him.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on June 04, 2010, 03:38:51 PM
valves a little over a year ago measured (to be honest i don't even know what the unit of measurement is):
Front
exhaust: 77
intake: 56
exhaust: 66
intake: 66
Rear
exhaust: 66
intake: 66
exhaust: 66
intake: 77
Shouldnt there be 2 measurements per valve? opener and closer?
Maybe they are cam degrees.
there was a space between each number
That makes no sense. Valve clearances are in fractions of either inches or millimeters.
Quote from: pompetta on June 07, 2010, 02:56:42 AM
That makes no sense. Valve clearances are in fractions of either inches or millimeters.
point taken. i will contact him and ask him what the numbers mean.
to the initial question, though, would a valve clearance issue stall the engine only at 3k rpms, but run great above that?
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on June 07, 2010, 07:58:07 AM
point taken. i will contact him and ask him what the numbers mean.
to the initial question, though, would a valve clearance issue stall the engine only at 3k rpms, but run great above that?
Dunno, but I think its really worth the time to learn to do your own maintenance. It takes a while, but IMO its worth it.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on June 07, 2010, 07:58:07 AM
point taken. i will contact him and ask him what the numbers mean.
to the initial question, though, would a valve clearance issue stall the engine only at 3k rpms, but run great above that?
Reread devimau's post. In your case you are running an ECU that has not been set up yet. Without TPS being set the UCU does not have a load/RPM relationship and there is no base line for CO. Your bike was fine before the ECU switch, so it is unlikely, in your case, valve clearance is causing your issues.
I think the problem is we are talking about more than one bike in this thread. My comment on valve clearance wasn't about your bike, just a generality. Sorry if I caused any confusion.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on June 02, 2010, 04:27:39 AM
Have you even pulled the plugs to note their condition? This could confirm/deny your suspicion that the bike is lean.
(the flash does seem to make the white a little bit brighter than it actually looks)
front plug:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/4684473341_3b04b6ca2f_b.jpg)
rear plug:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4685112794_2035acb61c_b.jpg)
those don't look lean to me, ever so subtly rich even but not lean, electrodes look like new
what you want to see is a light tan to milk chocolate brown powdery coating, any wet black sooty looking coating is a rich condition
not real sure what to make of those plugs since they look neither too lean nor too rich, however they also don't look 'just right' either
my guess is fueling isn't the issue so much as something else
(http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp211/doofwop/sparkcolors.jpg)
Quote from: errazor on June 03, 2010, 10:31:06 AM
Maybe it is something simple, like a loose earth bolt on the ecu or the engine block.
yeaaahhhh ..... like a lousy battery .... at least on my S4R, that's the problem.
made some changes to the keyspan adapter driver... and now it seems to be communicating with the ecu as it should. i ran through the TPS reset process again just to be sure; that seemed to work fine (bike started up nicely even after not being fired up for about a week or so and not being on the tender). then started up the bike to see if the gauges were looking normal, and if i could use the trimmer feature. the gauges were responsive, but i noticed something odd.... both the air temp gauge and the speedo were reading max:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1270/4691408179_019c81cba9.jpg)
also when attempting to make changes on the trimmer (bike at about 150 degrees F), i wasn't sure that it was really saving the value i was entering (15). but then coming back to that screen later on it did seem to still have it there. i was told to try a value of 15 and go from there... i didn't seem to hear any noticable difference with the idle sound of the bike though going from 0 to 15... i should though, right? do i just need to try bumping that value higher?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4692040362_47a6d5f422.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4692040432_e5792da261.jpg)
okay, so in addition to the problems with air temp and speedo...do the values for throttle position, spark adv., and injection time look normal? i hooked up the vdst last night to a friend's 848 (with genuine DP ecu) so i would have something to compare it to, but some of these values are quite different from mine. his gauges looked thusly:
(both screens are the 848)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4057/4693537866_ec6ccb1e22.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1303/4692902603_dd3c8f0887.jpg)
I'm a little curious why your bike is going 156 MPH at idle and the air temperature is 429 F ???
I don't think that the your TPS can be reset using the software. I think you need to connect to the TPS directly and use a voltmeter.
Quote from: howie on June 12, 2010, 07:00:20 PM
I'm a little curious why your bike is going 156 MPH at idle and the air temperature is 429 F ???
you and me both. the 848 i hooked up to immediately after had 0mph and 84 degrees. is the ambient air temp sensor located up front near the headlight? i'm not even sure what i do about the speedo...it works just fine on the bike.
Quote from: pompetta on June 13, 2010, 01:48:35 AM
I don't think that the your TPS can be reset using the software. I think you need to connect to the TPS directly and use a voltmeter.
hmm... everything i've heard so far indicates that it's purely software... just a couple mouseclicks, wait for it to do a seven or eight second countdown, it says "PASS", and then you turn the ignition off and wait for 13 seconds, and turn it back on.
Quote from: pompetta on June 13, 2010, 01:48:35 AM
I don't think that the your TPS can be reset using the software. I think you need to connect to the TPS directly and use a voltmeter.
That was the case with the earlier bikes.
Somewhere along the line it became a software item.
judging by the spark pic and the values in the screen that map on the ecu is way off IMMO.
the trimming looks ok (outer part of the plug) but the map itself is way lean and is detonating (look @ the porcelain and tip, very withe and alum residue).
the screen shows all parameters ok but the speed, temp and I'm not sure about that spak advance, tps and other values are fairly in spec.
who did the ecu remap?
Quote from: devimau on June 13, 2010, 11:48:56 AM
judging by the spark pic and the values in the screen that map on the ecu is way off IMMO.
the trimming looks ok (outer part of the plug) but the map itself is way lean and is detonating (look @ the porcelain and tip, very withe and alum residue).
the screen shows all parameters ok but the speed, temp and I'm not sure about that spak advance, tps and other values are fairly in spec.
who did the ecu remap?
bobby at desmo-porche
I never dealt with him so I don't know how accurate his maps are.
you should call him and show him the spark and vdst pics along with your co values info and go from there.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 13, 2010, 03:55:59 AM
That was the case with the earlier bikes.
Somewhere along the line it became a software item.
Hmmm...the OP has the same nonlinear TPS as me, and according to Moto1, it cannot be reset with the VDTS.
Quote from: pompetta on June 13, 2010, 02:55:17 PM
Hmmm...the OP has the same nonlinear TPS as me, and according to Moto1, it cannot be reset with the VDTS.
I'm sure you're right Dave.
There was some discussion of which ecu he has, and I don't know when it became a software item.
Does the TPS have rivets or screws? If it has screws it needs to be adjusted. If it has rivets it is set by the software.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 13, 2010, 03:46:23 PM
I'm sure you're right Dave.
There was some discussion of which ecu he has, and I don't know when it became a software item.
bobby at desmo porche (the place that reflashed the OEM ecu) had told me i have a 5AM ecu. the vdst also identified it as such. now to do some searching for pics of exactly what it is i'm looking for location-wise for these screws or rivets.
starting the bike the past several days has been much improved... seems to start on the first crank or two pretty easily. as for coughing or stumbling, i haven't been able to reproduce it since adjusting the trim. i tried with 15, and that seemed decent, then played with 30 briefly (that had flames coming out the exhaust), and then went to 17. took it on a decent ride yesterday, and even in the hot texas heat, chopping the throttle hard in city riding, i couldn't get one single pop or backfire. [thumbsup] i'll continue to play with the trim numbers (i've heard people say push the trim up until it stumbles then back it off a bit) to see what feels the best. but for now, i'm just happy that it seems to start right up, and run great (no popping at all!). i guess i'll also have to monitor my plugs periodically just to keep checking on what color they are to make sure it's not *too* rich.
buying a gastester would be a nice investment to make sure you're spot on, it's about $250.
Quote from: howie on June 13, 2010, 06:59:54 PM
Does the TPS have rivets or screws? If it has screws it needs to be adjusted. If it has rivets it is set by the software.
I have the same bike/year as the OP, and mine's a non-linear TPS with two phillips set screws.
looks like pompetta is dead on with this...just looked closely at my setup, and it looks just like what i'm seeing at brad's site (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati4vthrottleb.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati4vthrottleb.html)). looks like i may just take it to a tech to get it done right since this just got quite a bit more involved for someone that doesn't have a garage to work in. :-[
left side (i know these pics are horrible)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4705057390_3044df39bb.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4705048994_0c362e0b39.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4704413437_776e72fee1.jpg)
right side
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4704429879_bec9578dd7.jpg)
Too bad you're not closer. I made a pigtail to connect the TPS to a multimeter, and I have a garage. :-\
That said, the paint is still on the adjustment screws, so perhaps the TPS setting is OK. I doubt the VDST electronic "adjustment" did anything at all.
Perhaps Brad or someone with more than my piddly knowledge will chime in.
Quote from: pompetta on June 15, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
Too bad you're not closer. I made a pigtail to connect the TPS to a multimeter, and I have a garage. :-\
That said, the paint is still on the adjustment screws, so perhaps the TPS setting is OK. I doubt the VDST electronic "adjustment" did anything at all.
Perhaps Brad or someone with more than my piddly knowledge will chime in.
i appreciate the sentiment man... and i hardly call what you know "piddly"... i've seen you do all kinds of stuff on this board ;)