New THread cause this one is for a specific problem.
Called up EMSDUC and got some great info on how to install these suckers.
The i got them installed with less than .001 to .0015" gap between the shim and closing rocker arm on 3 valves, but the Vertical Exhaust valve is giving me SO MUCH HEADACHE.
THe biggest problem is getting the Collet to seat. The MBP Collets are much larger than the stock collets so they take up much more room on the groove. So once you install the collets theres a couple ways to get to them to full seat. One way is to hit the valve gently with a hammer, this will force the valve into the closing shim. The other way is to let the clsoing rocker arm to slap the shim, kind of like slaping a magazine against something hard to seat the bullets, or slapping cigarette boxes to get them to all line up.
Anyway, I can visually see that one collet will not seat when compared to the other valves, since i dont have a well trained eye to see it, i cant say for sure, but no matter what i do to try and get it to seat, it wont. The cam is stuck, so the there is negative clearance that is preventing me from spining the cam.
Ive gone from .517" to .509" (this is measured with the closing shim measuring tool) on the shim. I did not need to remove that much off the shim on any other valve. EMSDUC said they can cause the closing clearance to increase by up to .012" depending on the batch. All of mine are within .004" So i really cant figure it out. The only other solution i see is to continue to sand until i see it unbind.
I tried installing 1 of the collets, and the cam spins with no binding. With both installed the cam wont budge. With the "bad" collet installed by itself, it will bind. Physically i can see nothing wrong with the collet. I can try to remove a collet from another valve and install it. Thats about the only other thing i can think of.
Any help at all? My last resort is to install the stock collet and ride it up to ECS and have them finish the job.
Stock Collets ( are they suppose to be full rings?)
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=604&g2_serialNumber=1)
A properly seated MBP collet
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=607&g2_serialNumber=1)
This is the EVIL CLOSING SHIM! Thats how the collet sits inside it.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=610&g2_serialNumber=1)
I was having a similar problem when I figured out I was installing them upside down. Make sure the side that fits in the groove is down (closest to cylinder) so that there is a little collar showing and extending out of the shim recess. Hope this makes sense. Mine is a 99 900 so IM assuming collets are same ?
They are installed in hte correct orientation. I dont know how they would even fit if you installed them down, they would just pop off when the closing ship hits it. I think i might of found the problem. But i have to remove the other one to inspect it.
I am going to swap these collets with another valve on saturday and see where i go from there. if not, i will be running 3 MBP valves, and 1 stock valve. lol
Yeah of they're wrong they will still go on but kinda wdege in there and the clearace will be real tight. Or at least that was my fisrt experience. They were hard as fk to install until i finally got a technique for sliding them down the stem that worked for me. But the first one I bet I spent 3 hrs on that beeotch.
i have a helping a hand ( that i kept for 8 hours [evil]). Getting them into the groove is easy, ive done it almost 50 times by now. Im using a loupe to look at how the shim sits on the closing shim. it doenst sit flush, so that may be why smacking it HARD will cause it to seat "properly".
i did 3 valves in about 3 hours. its just this last one i already spent 3 hours on that causes me the most headache.
is the dark one the bad one and all the others silver? i'd get them to replace the bad one. they're just collets, they go in and away you go. there has to be something wrong if it's that hard to fit, and if there's no obvious burrs you need to try another.
i love the 8mm ones for the older 2v bikes, they're so easy to fit.
Quote from: brad black on June 11, 2010, 03:45:05 AM
is the dark one the bad one and all the others silver? i'd get them to replace the bad one. they're just collets, they go in and away you go. there has to be something wrong if it's that hard to fit, and if there's no obvious burrs you need to try another.
i love the 8mm ones for the older 2v bikes, they're so easy to fit.
its just the flash, i cant physically tell which one is the "bad one" until i install them. Im pretty sure they arent sitting correctly and my shim is way to small now.
Quoteare they suppose to be full rings?
No, usually called halfrings.
Quote from: greenmonster on June 11, 2010, 08:11:06 AM
No, usually called halfrings.
sorry i didnt mean like a full ring 1 piece, but are they suppose to connect together to become a full ring.
also i think i found out the problem. I think the collets are bad. I dont know how the previous owner got them in, but i swapped around a known collets that seat with the bad collets along with good shims and the misbehaving shim.
Bad Shim + Bad Collet= negative clearance causing binding
Bad Shim+ good collets = Positive clearance @ .001
Good Shim + bad collets = negative clearance causing binding
God shim + good collets = Positive clerance @.001
So, because i am sick and tired of this crap. I put the stock collet back in one of them. its at .002 for the intake closer on the verticle ( i moved it so it would be easier to work with.
The bike runs great. Im going to get another pair of collets to replace this. also picked up a used shim kit so i can figure out which one works best and order some new shims from mike at EMS.
PLEASE let this be the end of my torture.
This is one of the reasons I avoid MBP collets, FWIW.
Quote from: Christian on June 11, 2010, 12:14:14 PM
This is one of the reasons I avoid MBP collets, FWIW.
My honest opinion without riding it ( i did put it together with the stock collet on ONE of the valves and started the engine)
is that if they installed correctly, they arent hard to install. its basically drop in and replace a shim. thats it. other then that, if you run into any problems, this is what happens.
Ill post up pic + video of the install for future reference.
Maybe you have a small debris on your valvestame that prevent the new halfring to seat properly?
I thought that was the answer at first, but i washed it with wate,r then compressed air, and i also dripped oil into the valve stem then blew it with air, and wiped it with a clean rag. no go.
So i got my bike back up and running with 3 MBP collet valves and 1 stocker.
its a hybrid!
suck my balls ducati. Shim kit + new collet to replace the 2 broken ones = next week. with my new CA-cyclework pod filters installed, getting to the top valve is EASY. takes less than 10 minutes to get to the valve cover! so i can ride around instead of tweedling my thumb.
I was thinking about the groove that the halfring sits in on the valve.
It looks like it is a Sharpe edge on one of your older halfring.
You mean the groove on the valve stem? If so, i dripped oil onto it so any debries will be carried away by the oil, then for safe measure i blew it with compressed air and then wiped the groove with a clean rag.
Anywya, on my 2nd call to mike at EMSDUC, hes going to send me 8 new rings. and said that its possible that the set of rings i got was part of a bad batch they tried to recall earlier.
So dispite the fact that i bought them used, he is warrantying them which is awesome.
Now... i just have to rip them all out. :'(
You weren't by chance having problems fitting the collets onto this valve, were you?
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=595&g2_serialNumber=1)
Quote from: Speeddog on June 11, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
You weren't by chance having problems fitting the collets onto this valve, were you?
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=595&g2_serialNumber=1)
popcorn] [drink]
Quote from: Speeddog on June 11, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
You weren't by chance having problems fitting the collets onto this valve, were you?
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=595&g2_serialNumber=1)
Dont turn on hte microwave ducpainter!
It is NOT that valve. that pic is the forward cylinder intake. The one i had issues with turns out to not be the bike, its the collets. If i install them and look at it with a loupe, they dont seat correctly on any valve i install it onto.
The picture you quoted had no issues during installion of the MBP collets.
Mike @ EMS duc said its not very easy to tell if they are properly seated or not on the 2v bikes if you have the bad batch, but with the new batch, you know. so hopefully i'll know with the new ones.
Just a quick question, how do you guys support the valve on the DS1000, i bought plastic forceps like the video chris posted, instead of using my metal ones and then i realized something... theres much more space in the square ones compared to the circular ones i have. i tried to modify them to fit, but in the end they would just fly off when i comparess the closing rocker arm.
I ended up taking a 1/8th brass punch bending the tip and sticking it into the sparkplug hole. it works great, all i need to do is use my hip to apply a little pressure to keep the valve up and its like having a 3rd arm.
remove the belts, push the valve down and hold the rocker down with a pin under it, turn the engine over until the piston pushes the valve up a touch.
i don't understand why people try to stick stuff in the cylinder when the piston is there doing nothing and happy to help.
Quote from: brad black on June 11, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
remove the belts, push the valve down and hold the rocker down with a pin under it, turn the engine over until the piston pushes the valve up a touch.
i don't understand why people try to stick stuff in the cylinder when the piston is there doing nothing and happy to help.
We tried to tell him.
Listening is not one of his fortes. ;)
Quote from: ducpainter on June 11, 2010, 02:32:59 PM
We tried to tell him.
Listening is not one of his fortes. ;)
This?
QuoteYou should be able to insert an 8mm allen wrench, or similar, through the intake cover side and hold the closer away from the valve.
Quote from: brad black on June 11, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
remove the belts, push the valve down and hold the rocker down with a pin under it, turn the engine over until the piston pushes the valve up a touch.
i don't understand why people try to stick stuff in the cylinder when the piston is there doing nothing and happy to help.
Im trying to visualize what your saying here, and i dont get what you mean by hold hte rocker down with a pin UNDER it. I know theres a cam lock on the left side of the engine. you mean stick a pin in there?
Quote from: He Man on June 11, 2010, 02:45:15 PM
This?
Im trying to visualize what your saying here, and i dont get what you mean by hold hte rocker down with a pin UNDER it. I know theres a cam lock on the left side of the engine. you mean stick a pin in there?
Yup...
No...
You remove the belt and push the rocker down at the valve end.
You insert the pin through the opposite rocker cover between the rocker and cam.
That holds the closing rocker away from the shim. You make sure that the piston is at TDC on the cylinder you're working on.
At that point even you can't screw it up. :-*
Have you ever heard the expression KISS?
Quote from: ducpainter on June 11, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Have you ever heard the expression KISS?
Isn't he in school for the polar opposite concept?
Quote from: Dan on June 11, 2010, 03:36:51 PM
Isn't he in school for the polar opposite concept?
Yeah...
but work with me here. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on June 11, 2010, 03:41:53 PM
Yeah...
but work with me here. ;D
OK, how's this?
He Man, hit the make the beast with two backsing thing with a big make the beast with two backsing hammer, a lot, put it out of it's make the beast with two backsing misery, and get one you make the beast with two backsing don't need to make the beast with two backsing work on.
That's KISS
;D
Quote from: Dan on June 11, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
OK, how's this?
He Man, hit the make the beast with two backsing thing with a big make the beast with two backsing hammer, a lot, put it out of it's make the beast with two backsing misery, and get one you make the beast with two backsing don't need to make the beast with two backsing work on.
That's KISS
;D
Yet...
his inner engineer will insist he make the beast with two backss with it.
I practice the no-belts method myself and am intrigued by the "pin" idea. Right now I just push the closer down with a flathead screwdriver while I try to get the collets on. If there was a better way to keep the closer pushed down, I would love to see it.
Quote from: Dan on June 11, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
OK, how's this?
He Man, hit the make the beast with two backsing thing with a big make the beast with two backsing hammer, a lot, put it out of it's make the beast with two backsing misery, and get one you make the beast with two backsing don't need to make the beast with two backsing work on.
That's KISS
;D
what kind? a rounded peen hammer? 5lber? how hard? Where should I hit it? I use hammer and brass punch to knock the closer loose, no lie. ;)
the 1000 are a bit different to the older 2v motors with less room when doing this sort of stuff. on the older ones you slide the opening rocker over and push the valve and closing rocker down and slide in a 10mm or so round thing from the side you're working on under the tail of the closing rocker (cam end).
on the 1000 (ds) i usually remove the lh end cap and pull the opening rocker arms out when doing closing clearances. i'm sure i did some earlier ones without getting this disassembled, but the last few i've done have all worked much better this way.
from memory with the opening rocker arms in you can't turn the cams all the way around like you can an older 900, etc engine, as the opening rocker will get caught on another lobe and push down and jam everything up. there's not quite enough access to make it nice and easy, so i just accept that i need to pull the opening arms and away we go. once you're finished with the closers the openers can go back in, as there's no need to repeatedly remove them later.
so with that out of the way push down the valve and slide something approx 8 - 9mm round or the like - my long ball end L shaped 8mm hex key works well - in from the other side. if you're doing the exh, slide it past the inlet valve and under the cam end tail of the exh closing rocker. this holds the exh closing rocker down and the valve drops.
wind the engine over until the piston comes up and pushes the valve up. if you get to tdc and the valve hasn't moved you need something thicker under the closing rocker. just don't push the rocker all the way down hard and damage the valve stem seal.
now the valve is held, the collets and groove are proud of the shim and nothing can go anywhere. well, except the collets of course, they make the beast with two backs off at the slightest invitation and get caught in all sorts of places. they can actually get under the back of the horiz exh opening rockers arms on a testa, between the rocker and the head which is at the bottom in that instance. and a magnet won't pull them out. ask me how much time that cost me. because it's not just a case of leaving it there and fitting a new one - you just know it's going to come out as soon as you fire it up. and to pull the pins out you need to pull off those amazingly stupidly designed side plates that have o-rings to seal oil and coolant and the belt rollers that use a special tool to remove the bolt and it just goes on. the testa evo is so much better.
anyway, back to the topic.
i rest the valves on top of the pistons and tap the shims down with a long 3/8 drive extension when they're stuck. usually works ok, altho sometimes you have to hit it hard enough to leave you wondering if the valve is bent.
Thanks for clearing that up. Theres just alot less room to work with on the DS1000 overall compared to the other ones and what some people tell me simply doesnt work.
How involved is pulling the opening rocker arm?
Since the DS1000 valve access cover is almost 1/2 the size of the square 2v ones, i have less room to work with to begin with.
So i cant do what ducpainter suggessted without removing the opening rocker arm can I? I took a gander in there and though DP was make the beast with two backsing with me when he said shove a 8mm key in there cause it aint going in there without some serious finessing...and maybe a hammer
I did a 1000 multi at ducvets with my method. No rockers were removed.
i'm sure i've done it without pulling rockers also (and believe i should be able to do it without pulling the opening rockers), and the guy who used to do most of the ducati servicing at moto i don't recall seeing him pull the opening rockers, but it's very easy with them out. and i find that nearly every ds motor i do needs the closers done with changes of up to 0.20mm at times so for repeated in and out i find there's a time return in pulling the rockers versus not pulling them.
you remove the lh cap and pull the rocker arms, which will require a puller if they're tight. i've got the tools so it's easy. you need a long 5mm screw (150mm or so), big washer and a sleeve to go over the rocker as it comes out. without that you're probably not going to get them out. some just slide out, most don't.
much thanks to DP and bradblack for that method.
Theres not alot of space to shove the key in, but an 8mm will fit, u jsut have to finesse it in there with some taping and poking. but if you press the closing rocker arm and shove it below the opposite closing rocker arm and catch it from the other side, u can pin it down.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=613&g2_serialNumber=1)
I got the new set of shims and installed them without a hitch. took less than an hour.
The new Shims are EASY as pie to install and they dont get stuck on the closing shim either. I still have to stick a rod into the cylinder to push up on the valve. I had to apply a significant amount of force to get the closing shim off the old MBP collets, and half the time it left me wondering if i bent a valve for not.
Regardless i shimed the bike down to the tightest spec since i got a hold of a shim kit. and the bike PURRSSSSSS. its beautiful. im going to like riding my bike again. I just need to get the TPS and CO2 adjustment and the bike is solid.
took of all the bolts and loctited them and the only thing left to do is send my shock out to get rebuilt and replaced the fork oil and im golden.