Today I said screw it and tore the engine town to the cases. Heres what I found...
Horizontal Cylinder - Its like this on the top and bottom
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/Duc%20Cylinders/P1040246.jpg)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/Duc%20Cylinders/P1040248.jpg)
Vertical Cylinder - Its like this in front and rear.
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/Duc%20Cylinders/P1040253.jpg)
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh92/ducaccia/Duc%20Pics/Duc%20Cylinders/P1040249.jpg)
Here's a video of the rods, I am able to wiggle them pretty good back and forth. No sound, my cameras trippin but you can see.
Duc Rod Play (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGBdypmyc80#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Well the crosshatching still looks intact, but the rod play looks bad. Not sure if that is the cause of your vibration problem since I'm not sure if the rods are supposed to have some play or what but perhaps a rebuild is in order now. Source a 900ie engine and do an upgrade [moto]
I wish I could do an upgrade but I am low on funds and would love to just get this thing back on the road without spending too much cashola. If the cylinders and rods are ok I need to dig deeper to find the problem. For some reason my gut is telling me that if its not the rod play that its a bearing. When I turn the crankshaft it is kinda smooth but I hear a weird creaking sound (in neutral, out of gear).
Edit: So one more thing that found, on one of the cylinders the ring gaps were all almost in a line. They should be 120 degrees apart. Could this be the problem?
no, the rings rotate around the piston while the engine is running. the rod should not be able to wiggle in the way you show that much. how many miles on this motor? ive only heard car motors with rod knock, not totally convinced it'd result in a vibration. i do suppose it is much more likely to do so on a twin.
38K on the motor, here is my last thread http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39360.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39360.0)
theres a full background on the bikes troubles in the beginning.
The gaps need to be at 120o, you will have blow by if they are in line. You didn't say what engine you have, but you do have full floating wrist pins, so you will get some wiggle. If you have a 750, you are allowed a max of .025 mm between the wrist pin and piston, .05 mm between the rod and wrist pin. Assembly tolerance are tighter.
What is the noise like? Deep thud? Light rattle? Metallic rap? At what engine speeds? You did check for a loose flywheel nut, didn't you?
Oh, I just read that thread. you are not after a noise, you are after a vibration. Did yiu do a leak down or compression test before disassembling?
Vibration? It's your rings. Re-align them properly and put it back together & go terrorize your neighborhood some more.
Rod 'wiggle' doesn't look excessive to me, but the quality of the vid and my player ain't the hottest and there's some gin in my bloodstream right now.
Motor is a 620, compression test was at 150/153 psi and in the leakdown test showed 18% air loss out of the rings, nothing out of the valves. The manual states that the axial play between the con rods and the crankshaft should be 0.15 â€" 0.35 mm, I'll have to measure that tomorrow. The wrist pins came out perfectly, no play at all.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on June 12, 2010, 07:45:04 PM
Vibration? It's your rings. Re-align them properly and put it back together & go terrorize your neighborhood some more.
Rod 'wiggle' doesn't look excessive to me, but the quality of the vid and my player ain't the hottest and there's some gin in my bloodstream right now.
The vid does suck! But its all I could give ya. Ill give er a go with the rings realigned and see where we are from there, thanks Stu.
If you did a valve adjustment recently and got a shim wrong, that could cause a vibration...
If this isn't correct, sorry to aggravate your grief.
For vibrations through the pegs I would first check the footrest hangers and anything associated with them. You probably have already. Also check the drive train (sprockets, chain and cush drive components) as has been suggested. A check of the flywheel for any loose bolts could be done easily buy running the motor and checking the timing window with a flash light or timing light for any wobble/runout. Also holding the clutch cover or putting an ear to it for any strange vibration or noise might ascertain if your clutch assembly is loose before taking off the cover.
If you have done all this, sorry mate and I hope its nothing too deep in the engine, i.e bottom end.
Like everyone else I'll be watching with fingers crossed!
Vibration can be a pregnant dog to find. I watched one of the best in the world chase down a vibration on a Monster. After checking engine tune, valve clearance, carbs, flywheel nut, etc the vibration was traced down to the home made license plate bracket used in the tail chop.
Hey all, so I reset the ring gaps on the pistons and it did make a difference but the main vibration is still there.
FYI I tore a bunch of ligaments in my foot and haven't been able to walk for 3 weeks. So I was finally able to walk yesterday and work on the bike. I took off both engine side covers and all was good on the flywheel side but on the clutch side I was able to wiggle the clutch basket and the big primary gear a bit. Is this normal?
No play in mine. I'd torque all fasteners to spec and try running it. If the basket, etc. are loose, I would think that would cause some pretty large vibrations.
Rings should be free enough to spin around on the piston, and consequently they may one day align up or not. Spacing them 120 for assembly is fine, but opening up a motor and finding them all inline doesn't mean anything....
Quote from: 2 Wheel Wanderer on July 07, 2010, 07:00:23 PMI took off both engine side covers and all was good on the flywheel side but on the clutch side I was able to wiggle the clutch basket and the big primary gear a bit. Is this normal?
BINGO
The big nut needs to be tightened down.....
pompetta, TAftonomos, Thanks guys, I'm gonna take off the basket to check the bearing then tighten er all down.
Edit: so the clutch drum is tight but the basket is slightly loose. Its either the inner ring or bearing. Is there any freeplay allowed here?
Quote from: 2 Wheel Wanderer on July 08, 2010, 09:56:56 AM
pompetta, TAftonomos, Thanks guys, I'm gonna take off the basket to check the bearing then tighten er all down.
Edit: so the clutch drum is tight but the basket is slightly loose. Its either the inner ring or bearing. Is there any freeplay allowed here?
I seriously doubt it.
Tightened everything up to spec and put the cases back on. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
Is it possible that after 40K of hard riding that the innards need to just be re-shimmed?
So I think I finally fixed my friggin bike.
I got a great deal on an engine that has 300 miles on it for $300. It has a cracked engine mount, no stator and a cracked clutch cover. I replaced my heads, cylinders and pistons with the new ones, tuned up the bike and it's runnin pretty good. I think I need to ride it and get it fine tuned in order to be completely happy with it.
I may buy the 750 kit from FBF next year and use my old cylinders for the rebore and nikasil plating.
glad you "fixed the problem". I hate when you can find a solution and really the next best thign is to just chuck the motor. :(
hopefully this will solve everhythiugn for you
Quote from: He Man on August 06, 2010, 09:02:19 PM
glad you "fixed the problem". I hate when you can find a solution and really the next best thign is to just chuck the motor. :(
hopefully this will solve everhythiugn for you
Thanks He Man, I hope so too! :) I think it was the heads that were the problem. I haven't explored into them further than taking them off the bike but I think the cams got badly worn when the exhaust valves receded into the head which pushed up hard against the rockers which pushed against the cams with no valve clearance. I'm sure I'll be taking them apart so I can get a final confirmation.
At some point I'll probably get crack the cases on the other motor and have the engine mount fixed. Then put in my stator, switch clutch covers, put that in the bike and beat the shit out of that motor for another 40K miles. I'll probably take some time with that since the bike is running well and I can finally go out for some rides.
Thanks for everyone's input in helping me figure this thing out. Too bad I had to replace the heads, pistons and cylinders but for $300 I got an engine with 300 miles on it. I couldn't pass up the offer, it was just too good of a deal.
Anyway thanks again guys, this board rocks!!
The clutch basket on a wet-clutch bike is riveted onto the primary gear. I've seen those rivets come loose and sound like a big-end bearing going out, rod-knock...something major-ly wrong down low. I've only seen one go out, so not much experience there, but it could be your problem with the original engine.
So I finally figured what the vibration through the mufflers and through the pegs was. Stu called it on page one of this thread. When I put the new engine in the bike I checked the valves and thought they were within spec. Technically they were, but really weren't. All closers were perfect, the openers on the horizontal intake and exhaust were both at .004". The openers on the vertical were both at .005". I figured cool everything's all good.
After trying to tune the bike every which way I couldn't get a totally smooth ride. I kept thinking about what Stu had mentioned on page one.
"If you did a valve adjustment recently and got a shim wrong, that could cause a vibration..."
I also remembered that DP had mentioned to someone in another thread that he needed to set their openers at .004" and .005".
So I went back in and adjusted the intake openers to .004" and the exhaust openers to .005", adjusted the TPS/TB Sync, set the CO to 5% and everything is right with the world again. It smoothed everything out, the bike runs and rides great.
What happened originally was that the engine overheated more than a few times to over 300 degrees. Over a period of 6000 miles it went from running pretty good to running like crap.The overheating led to the exhaust valve edges to tulip (that's what Ducpond said when they inspected them) and allowing the stem to be pushed further into the head than it was supposed to. When I finally took off the valve inspection covers the exhaust shims were pushing up hard on the rockers with no clearance at TDC. SO either the cam lobes got screwed up or the rockers did or both. I think it was the exhaust lobes on the cams. After that I could never get the bike to run right.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in over the many threads I've started to figure this all out. I have enjoyed learning so much about my bike and bikes in general.
Thanks to Stu and DP for getting me to that final step. I've had some injuries that have taken their toll on me this year but I'm feeling good and ready to put some major miles on this Fall/Winter season.
QuoteThanks to Stu and DP for getting me to that final step. I've had some injuries that have taken their toll on me this year but I'm feeling good and ready to put some major miles on this Fall/Winter season.
;D You're entirely welcome! [thumbsup]