I wanted to throw out my experience and get some feedback from other members here.
I have a 2000 M900ie with the hooped framed suspension. I rode the bike with the stock rear ride height for a few thousand miles and decided that I wanted a bit more weight on the front tire. I bought a pair of stainless steel spacers from a member here (very nice quality, top notch!) that were about an inch long to raise the rear of the bike. With these installed, it brought the rear up about 2-3 inches. I've got about a thousand miles with the new set up and it did exactly what I wanted it to do, put more weight on the front tire. The handling and feedback are very much improved. However, over uneven pavement, I am getting some head shake when on the gas. Now I am looking at a steering damper (and a longer side stand). This is having me rethink the new setup. With the bike stock, I never had a head shake issue. I know with the hoop, I can install a longer hoop (or spacers like I did), turn out the heim joints or I can raise the rear with the shock (I have an Ohlin's rear shock with an adjustable lower eye) to increase the rear ride height.
I guess I wanted to hear from other members regarding their preferences and experiences on dealing with this issue.
1 inch is a lot. I had about 1/2 or 9/16 of an inch of thread showing on the heim joints and liked it that way. Of course also had a steering dampner. Since you have several options to adjust ride height, I would use these to try different settings to see if you can find something you like without the head shake. I also like the security of having a dampner. Comes from a highside on the track from touching a little sand in the middle of a corner.
Quote from: 64duc on June 14, 2010, 06:40:11 AM
I had about 1/2 or 9/16 of an inch of thread showing on the heim joints and liked it that way.
How much of your front forks is sticking above the upper triple clamp?
My wife complains about her 2001 M900ie all the time. I am not sure, because I don't have anything to compare it to, but the thing seems awefully low and she drags her toes/footpegs far too easily. I've been thinking about raising the suspension some, but I'm not too sure how much adjustment is available at the rear of the bike. She also has the disadvantage of the rearsets being a little wider due to spacers for the Termi high-mount exhausts on the bike, too.
It's pretty bad when I can out-run her in the curves on an old '87 Paso 750 when she is riding her Monster. Then, again, I do have the advantage of being able to slide off the seat. ;D
raising the rear will decrease the trail in the front that will lead you into the headshake zone.
you can lower it back some or raise the front.
do you loose grip on the rear when getting on the gas but still leaned over?
How much of your front forks is sticking above the upper triple clamp?
About 3/8 inch. i'm also 6 2.
put them flush with the top clamp and see how it works, if you need more lower the rear by small steps to get it into the sweet zone.
Quote from: devimau on June 14, 2010, 11:28:20 AM
raising the rear will decrease the trail in the front that will lead you into the headshake zone.
you can lower it back some or raise the front.
do you loose grip on the rear when getting on the gas but still leaned over?
Thanks for the explanation. I understand that the trail will be reduced. I am not a fan of sliding the forks up in the triples, instead I prefer to raise the rear of the bike to put more load on the front.
I will have to lower the rear as I have DP clipons on the front which attach to the top of the fork tubes, above the triple.
I do not loose grip when on the gas. I spent 6 days in a row, doing the same 30 mile loop to dial in the rear shock. The front forks have been re-sprung for my weight using the RaceTech stuff.
With the stock set up, I couldn't get enough weight over the front tire. It felt like it was too far away, like washing out. I never lost grip with the stock setup, however.
I just don't know what to do.
I cant chime in as of yet for the handling of the bike as I'm still sorting out some electrical gremlins and trying to bleed my hydraulic clutch. However I added the same risers in the rear hoop of the suspension which really jacked the ass end up. I also had to raise my fork legs thru the triple because I have put on a set of clip-ons that mount above the triple. I think the stock measurement from the top of the fork leg to the bottom of the lower triple clamp should measure out to 280mm. thats stock baseline. When the fork legs are set to that measurement, the forks will be above the top triple by approx. .5 ~ .75". I raised my fork legs probably about another .25", so in total is just around or a little more than 1" above the top triple.
I also added a 70 series profile front tire to compensate for "lowering" the front end. I'm not sure how the bike is going to handle yet, but once I finally get it on the road I will give you some feedback. My front forks have also been resprung with race-tech springs, but the rear shock is stock [puke]
I just maxed out the heim joints on my bike, no need for the extensions IMO, and have 25mm of tube above the triple.
I don't have a damper and don't have headshake issues.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 15, 2010, 01:37:07 AM
I just maxed out the heim joints on my bike, no need for the extensions IMO, and have 25mm of tube above the triple.
I don't have a damper and don't have headshake issues.
DP, if I remember right, you have an Ohlin's shock on the rear of your Monster as well. Is there a reason you maxed out the heim joints instead of using the eye of the shock?
I took a look at the rear suspension linkage to try to determine if the effect of a longer hoop (turning our the heim joints or adding spacers) would change how the suspension worked differently from a longer shock (turning out the bottom eye on the Ohlin's). Both would decrease the trail...any thoughts?
Quote from: ducpainter on June 15, 2010, 01:37:07 AM
I just maxed out the heim joints on my bike, no need for the extensions IMO, and have 25mm of tube above the triple.
I don't have a damper and don't have headshake issues.
Does that 25mm include the the one piece fork cap and bolthead or just the gold fork tube? I raised the rear ride height via the heim joints too with about 10-12mm of the heim joint thread showing. I guestimate that it gives around 25-30mm ride height at the axel? I left the front as it was, it has about 15mm of the gold fork tube showing not including the height of the one piece cap and bolthead. I have the stock non adjustable Showa front end.
When I really want to get on it, I try and get my weight as far forward as possible to load up the front tire. The Monster tank shape lends itself to this. I can see why people fit clip-ons to help give this feel and improve the weight distribution. I like the stock bars though for comfort when I'm riding easy.
A mate of mine runs pod filters and has moved the battery up behind the steering head to help weight distribution.
Quote from: Blue on June 16, 2010, 08:11:44 AM
DP, if I remember right, you have an Ohlin's shock on the rear of your Monster as well. Is there a reason you maxed out the heim joints instead of using the eye of the shock?
I took a look at the rear suspension linkage to try to determine if the effect of a longer hoop (turning our the heim joints or adding spacers) would change how the suspension worked differently from a longer shock (turning out the bottom eye on the Ohlin's). Both would decrease the trail...any thoughts?
I do have an Ohlins, but ride height is not adjustable on a DU-440...and I don't think it would work that way on a linkage system anyway. I believe a longer shock would act more like increased preload.
For those who use the heim joints to increase the rear ride height, how did you end up with your settings?
Before I installed the spacers, the rear ride height was as low it could be. I think I am going to remove the spacers and try to turn out the joints in order to gain some height. I don't know if I should start at the max and turn them in as needed or the other way. I am not sure how much I can gain with the joints themselves, anyone know?
For the record:
My front forks are at the stock location as measured from the bottom of the lower triple clamp to the top of the fork tube (excluding the cap) per the FSM for my Monster. I will check my manual when home to verify the setting.
Sorry to go OT here a bit (I've got the risers on myself, 500 miles love it so far) but I just bought, some race tech springs for my forks (2001 M900S) but apparently Racetech list them as 41mm but they are supposed to be 43mm. Anyone else run into this? I ordered them through my dealer, although I looked up the parts online first, and gave them the parts number. Supposedly RT has claimed they made a mistake, but my dealer said they listed 41mm for the 2000 M900 as well (which should be 43mm?). Just wondering.
So far the only thing close to headshake I ahve had was going over some loose gravel (unexpectedly), while going pretty hard on some roads. Mostly just scared me, no tankslapper. I'm 6'4 and love the added height on both look and performance.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 16, 2010, 03:02:45 PM
I do have an Ohlins, but ride height is not adjustable on a DU-440...and I don't think it would work that way on a linkage system anyway. I believe a longer shock would act more like increased preload.
Any Ohlin's tech can install an adjustable length options on your DU-440 (I had this done, it doesn't cost much)
And while pre-load does affect the effective length of the shock, it also compresses the spring, so that can have some secondary effects depending on the spring rate.
I'd share my settings, but my set up is so dang weird (SBK front forks and a custom swingarm) that I doubt it'd work for anyone else.
Quote from: Blue on June 17, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
For those who use the heim joints to increase the rear ride height, how did you end up with your settings?
Before I installed the spacers, the rear ride height was as low it could be. I think I am going to remove the spacers and try to turn out the joints in order to gain some height. I don't know if I should start at the max and turn them in as needed or the other way. I am not sure how much I can gain with the joints themselves, anyone know?
For the record:
My front forks are at the stock location as measured from the bottom of the lower triple clamp to the top of the fork tube (excluding the cap) per the FSM for my Monster. I will check my manual when home to verify the setting.
I just wound them out as much as I dared...
engineering standards require a full diameter of threads in the hoop for safety. Personally I've been proving them wrong for 30K miles.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 19, 2010, 08:04:32 AM
Any Ohlin's tech can install an adjustable length options on your DU-440 (I had this done, it doesn't cost much)
And while pre-load does affect the effective length of the shock, it also compresses the spring, so that can have some secondary effects depending on the spring rate.
I'd share my settings, but my set up is so dang weird (SBK front forks and a custom swingarm) that I doubt it'd work for anyone else.
My understanding of the way a linkage system works would lead me to not bother with increased length on the shock. I might be missing something, but unless you also change the length of the hoop you're just going to be adding preload by trying to stuff a longer shock in there.
While preload does act as a length adjuster, remember the piston only has limited amount of travel inside the tube and that doesn't get adjusted via pre-load.
Plus the piston's movement in the tube isn't the same throughout it's range of motion (at least on some shocks)
In my case the adjustment on preload had to be so much that I ran low on piston travel and just started compressing the spring. Hence the need for a longer shock. And I was afraid of the shock "topping out" when the suspension was rebounding to it's highest setting.
But this is an extreme case where the shock mounting point and the hoop mounting points were both lower.
Add to that that you want the hiem joint operating as efficiently as possible. i.e. both the shock and hoop to be connecting as perpendicularly as possible to the joint. The further out of whack these get, the less efficiently it's going to transmit forces between the hoop and shock.
So in general, for a higher rear end, I'd go with spacers on the hoop and keeping the shock the normal length, with preload adjusted close to the middle of the piston's travel.
Make sense?
Quoteraising the rear will decrease the trail in the front that will lead you into the headshake zone.
+1.
Old Mchassie not the best & hasn`t the optimum yokes f best steering/trail.
I have 14mm raised rear & 27mm over triple, no headshakes.
When you get them shakes, you have matched rear & front wrong.
My 2c.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on June 19, 2010, 01:52:47 PM
<snip>
Make sense?
I never suggested using a longer shock.
Preload only affects spring length. It does not affect shock travel. Too little preload or too soft a spring will use up travel, that's true.
If you lengthen the shock with a fixed hoop length the only thing that can possibly happen when you stuff that shock in that space is for it to compress the shock thereby increasing preload and using up effective travel.
As far as the efficiency of force...waaay too technical for me to even consider. The heim joints remain in a straight line with the hoop and they work.
Maybe we're thinking the same thing and saying it differently.
Quote from: Blue on June 17, 2010, 10:51:43 AM
For those who use the heim joints to increase the rear ride height, how did you end up with your settings?
I think I should have better explained was was happening. With the heim joints at their lowest (stock setting), I felt I needed more on the front. With the spacers installed, I achieved what I set out to do; however, I have had two instances of headshake when on the gas over rippled pavement. One stretch is where I can air out the bike. Both times the bike recovered quickly and without drama. I am just not a fan of that experience. I don't want to add a damper or a longer side stand if I can achieve what I would like to do with the heim joints only. The trouble is (nice troubles to have) I will be attending a performance motorcycling school this Friday (ZARS), so I am thinking I am going to leave it as it is for now. I don't want to switch the bike around with this event coming up.
More info below:
QuoteBefore I installed the spacers, the rear ride height was as low it could be. I think I am going to remove the spacers and try to turn out the joints in order to gain some height. I don't know if I should start at the max and turn them in as needed or the other way. I am not sure how much I can gain with the joints themselves, anyone know?
The spacer is about 28.5mm long (without the nut at the bottom). The nut is thinner than the stock nut that comes with the heim joints. The overall length of the heim joint (measured from the middle of the nut per the FSM), nut and spacer is ~54mm. Measuring the hoop (as best I can with it installed) minus the heim, nut and spacer is ~215mm (to the middle of the nut per the FSM). So, the FSM calls for 238mm from nut on the heim joint to the nut on the rocker that holds the hoop. With my quick measurements, I am at ~269mm for a gain of ~30mm over the stock set up.
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4717610456_e6efee7021_b.jpg)
QuoteFor the record:
My front forks are at the stock location as measured from the bottom of the lower triple clamp to the top of the fork tube (excluding the cap) per the FSM for my Monster. I will check my manual when home to verify the setting.
This measurement is 279mm.
The clipons are 27mm tall and are flush with the forks tops with the forks at the stock setting.
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4717608854_44fed56fa7_b.jpg)
Quote from: Blue on June 20, 2010, 09:19:06 AM
I think I should have better explained was was happening. With the heim joints at their lowest (stock setting), I felt I needed more on the front. With the spacers installed, I achieved what I set out to do; however, I have had two instances of headshake when on the gas over rippled pavement. One stretch is where I can air out the bike. Both times the bike recovered quickly and without drama. I am just not a fan of that experience. I don't want to add a damper or a longer side stand if I can achieve what I would like to do with the heim joints only. The trouble is (nice troubles to have) I will be attending a performance motorcycling school this Friday (ZARS), so I am thinking I am going to leave it as it is for now. I don't want to switch the bike around with this event coming up.
More info below:The spacer is about 28.5mm long (without the nut at the bottom). The nut is thinner than the stock nut that comes with the heim joints. The overall length of the heim joint (measured from the middle of the nut per the FSM), nut and spacer is ~54mm. Measuring the hoop (as best I can with it installed) minus the heim, nut and spacer is ~215mm (to the middle of the nut per the FSM). So, the FSM calls for 238mm from nut on the heim joint to the nut on the rocker that holds the hoop. With my quick measurements, I am at ~269mm for a gain of ~30mm over the stock set up.
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4717610456_e6efee7021_b.jpg)
This measurement is 279mm.
The clipons are 27mm tall and are flush with the forks tops with the forks at the stock setting.
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/4717608854_44fed56fa7_b.jpg)
Sorry for going totally off topic here on you, but I have the same clip ons as you. What brand are they? I also have the same suspension risers installed on my rear hoop. My clipons also sit flush like yours. I havent been able to ride the bike yet, but once I do I will give you some feedback of the handling characteristics.
Blue, have you had your suspension set up properly? My understanding is that will greatly reduce your chance of headshake, as th reason for headshake, is that the suspension can't deal wit the bumps. Plus if you are still rocking the stock springs, you can upgrade those, for about $200 plus labor (or do it yourself). Alot cheaper than $4-600+ for a steering dampner. Plus it will ride a lot better anyway.
Quote from: COP TZR on June 20, 2010, 06:47:16 PM
Sorry for going totally off topic here on you, but I have the same clip ons as you. What brand are they? I also have the same suspension risers installed on my rear hoop. My clipons also sit flush like yours. I havent been able to ride the bike yet, but once I do I will give you some feedback of the handling characteristics.
The clipons are from the DP catalog.
Quote from: DaFoose on June 21, 2010, 09:08:00 AM
Blue, have you had your suspension set up properly? My understanding is that will greatly reduce your chance of headshake, as th reason for headshake, is that the suspension can't deal wit the bumps. Plus if you are still rocking the stock springs, you can upgrade those, for about $200 plus labor (or do it yourself). Alot cheaper than $4-600+ for a steering dampner. Plus it will ride a lot better anyway.
My suspension has been upgraded for me. RaceTech up front and an Ohlin's rear shock.
I went for a 100 mile ride yesterday with my Dad (Father's Day). I flogged the bike really hard and had no headshake at all; riding over all types of pavement. I really like how quick the bike changes direction. So, I am back to considering all options.
Decisions, decisions...
Have you considered removing the spacers and just winding out the joints?
The threads are long enough to make quite a change in height.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 21, 2010, 09:42:40 AM
Have you considered removing the spacers and just winding out the joints?
The threads are long enough to make quite a change in height.
Yes, I have.
Since I am about 30mm up front stock, I thought about removing the spacers and going 10mm up on the heim joints to see if the bike still handles as I want it to. If not, then 20 mm.
Do you know how long the threads on the heim joints are? I did not measure them while they were out.
Quote from: Blue on June 21, 2010, 10:39:24 AM
Yes, I have.
Since I am about 30mm up front stock, I thought about removing the spacers and going 10mm up on the heim joints to see if the bike still handles as I want it to. If not, then 20 mm.
Do you know how long the threads on the heim joints are? I did not measure them while they were out.
I don't know the length. I do know you can get the 10mm relatively safely. I have 1/2" of threads exposed below the jamb nut, but I have ignored the engineering standard of a full diameter of thread in the hoop. I feel safe enough, but I can't recommend that you do it.
No way you can get 20mm.
W that nice suspension you have & forks 27mm over triple,
I again recommend 10-14mm raise on original heim joints, threads are 22mm IIRC.
I have almost same suspension as you & mine stears quick enough w no shakes.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 21, 2010, 03:00:19 PM
I don't know the length. I do know you can get the 10mm relatively safely. I have 1/2" of threads exposed below the jamb nut, but I have ignored the engineering standard of a full diameter of thread in the hoop. I feel safe enough, but I can't recommend that you do it.
No way you can get 20mm.
Quote from: greenmonster on June 21, 2010, 03:33:12 PM
W that nice suspension you have & forks 27mm over triple,
I again recommend 10-14mm raise on original heim joints, threads are 22mm IIRC.
I have almost same suspension as you & mine stears quick enough w no shakes.
Thanks for the added information, I think I will go with 10mm to start with. If 2mm got me where I wanted to be, that would be what I would go with. It is all in pursuit of front end feel and loading the front tire.
Thanks for length of the heim joints information. I agree, the suspension is wonderful; I just need to sort out the right amount of trail for my Monster.
And I`ve been where you are:
+28mm rear, feels like I need a steering damper.
Back to 14mm rear, hmmm, feels like I don`t need st damper!
Hey Blue
Hows that bike handling? [popcorn]
Quote from: koko64 on June 25, 2010, 04:57:43 PM
Hey Blue
Hows that bike handling? [popcorn]
Well, I haven't had time to remove the spacers as of yet.
Last weekend I took my Monster to a performance riding school (ZARS (http://www.zaluskyridingschool.com)) which consisted of a closed course track made up of 17 turns with elevation changes (track layout here (http://web.me.com/jessicaz310/ARS/Schedule_Format_files/DCTC_map-1.jpg)).
What can I say...FUN, FUN, FUN!!! [moto]
Throughout the day, I did not have one issue or concern arise from the rear being raised. No headshake or instability problems. There were plenty of slow speed corners followed by hard acceleration. The bike performed wonderfully.
I am still considering removing the spacers and trying the bike out with ~15mm or half the increase to see if I like it that way. In keeping the spacers, I do need to source a longer side stand (and a damper, most likely). I really would like to purchase neither of these if possible.
I will be attending the school again at the end of July, so I have a month to figure things out.
On another note, what is the first thing to touch down on a hooped frame Monster (left and right)? Looks like side stand on the left and the exhaust can on the right?
Way to go Blue.
Sounds like it's stable enough despite the big ride height increase. It seems you have good feel in the front end that's confidence inspiring and not all Monster riders could say that.
I remember 'machining' the pegs, gear lever, brake lever and slip-ons, and wrecking a pair of boots at Phillip Island in 1996 on a 1995 M900! It had the stock ride height. Gear lever touched knocking it into neutral entering turn two (Southern Loop) :o.
Needed a change of leathers!
Quote from: Blue on June 29, 2010, 09:32:36 AM
<snip>
On another note, what is the first thing to touch down on a hooped frame Monster (left and right)? Looks like side stand on the left and the exhaust can on the right?
My experience was that with raised ride height the only thing that touched was my toes and the pegs.
I have a sidestand with out the nub
QuoteIn keeping the spacers, I do need to source a longer side stand
W my settings, I`m quite happy w making the stand 15mm longer.
I finally got my bike back together and on the road. My first ride was pretty impressive (slower speeds). My 2nd ride out I rolled on the throttle much more bringing the bike around 180km/hr. I found that once I got up to that speed and above, it felt like my bars wanted to wobble or so called "head shake". I do have the risers in the rear hoop, and I also have the front end of the bike lowered to allow the installation of my clip ons above the triple tree. I didnt want to ride any faster in fear that I would have gotten myself into a nasty tank slapper. I do also have a "70" series front tire (stock is "60"). Does that have anything to do with it, or is it just the geometry of the bike now?
Looks like I may need a steering dampner at this point.
Well, I had a month between my track days with the intention of removing the spacers and trying various lengths of the heim joints. It turned out that this was one of the busiest months of the year for me, so I did not have time to remove the spacers or or try various ride heights.
I haven't had a wobble from the front since I started this post. I have been on the street and the track for hundreds of miles without a single issue.
I am pleased to report that the second track day was a success. It came with increased confidence and absolutely no handling issues with the increase in rear ride height. I must say, I really like the quickness of the steering and the feeling from the front tire.
This bike is fun, fun, fun! [evil]
The front tire:
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4826660201_c714a55924_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4827278270_3abe380e17_b.jpg)
I thought I would take a minute to update this thread.
I still have the spacers installed and I am going to be leaving them in place and getting a longer side stand. The improvement in handling is fantastic over the stock set up for the rear ride height in my experience. I was able to get rid of all head shake by having one less click the compression damping (there are 25 clicks of adjustment). I know, you may not believe that one click could cause such a difference, but it can! I couldn't believe it either as it seems to good to be true, but after another thousand miles, I have not experienced any head shake, on the track or on the road. Life on the Monster is the best it has ever been to date; I am just a side stand away from done with this mod.
Happy riding! [moto]
Great to hear.
Sounds like you achieved a nice balance between stabilty and agility.
Cheers.