I posted this issue 3 years ago on TOB, but never got a good answer. It is time again to change my belts. I have a problem, I think is unique to very early 1000ds engines, and might have been a design oops.
To remove existing belts, I have to take the drive pulley off, because there is not enough clearance between the pulley lip and the engine case:
Can anyone with a later 1000ds engine tell me how Ducati fixed this problem? A picture would be helpful. Did they remove the lip on the pulley? Did they add clearance to the engine case?
mitt
I'm told it can be done with great difficulty.
I swear on the good book that I can't force it out with my bike.
Last time, I machined a castle nut socket, a pulley holder, etc etc. It worked, but there must be another way?
mitt
Quote from: mitt on June 16, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
I swear on the good book that I can't force it out with my bike.
Last time, I machined a castle nut socket, a pulley holder, etc etc. It worked, but there must be another way?
(http://7782181789889801422-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/mittelstadtc/Home/file2/casltenutsocketducati.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cpgRbKfIbr8RxZ9Mqd_Y55Hc2Bs9mUJLwDUzGGuIGW9z_1NWB6_0TV_g7kjAiL6Of2O_LbT82cHZNLAS0VpTXRsHwPJRfc32YjXNh17Uw4vX13jpMQF0zaKZkUPXduhDhuY7Dg-ABcsumCGz4AflXvEjNHTR9T3fECpfdOSOPt_FFn0eNfSG4La_9sfdf3EoKWB3fnMoDzpYhEb1f-JDy7xjhnCzhvDKgdC4fJKSfL2533Y0RY%3D&attredirects=0)
(http://7782181789889801422-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/mittelstadtc/Home/file2/pulleyholderducati.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cpHZjAQUnDjbr00W8EJZ51Li0odXl4R75TDFm5Hl8P8UKV2N1Xv_hcDrCQa0PKPJsxYjBRbkkx3mjQgvJj4LPhn37nVnp0xlbZ4D2l5qTTzrdjX7UunASvUVFtMv1VlqKbLuV-fwfSez_D5RZSbivaSX8_p1L0ZQVC3yVVK2B82nWXVxzmhL42dCPIGF9GIWsaIK3xzHFFYS2LCShcy1IkF0FVkJFP-R-zD4w7BrcaEyoF2zkg%3D&attredirects=0)
mitt
I can't argue...
because I have no FHE.
It's funny...
if you do stuff every day it becomes easy.
When we mortals play with our bikes it is a brand new experience every time, whereas when the pros do it...
it's...
easy. ;D
Quote from: mitt on June 16, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
I swear on the good book that I can't force it out with my bike.
Last time, I machined a castle nut socket, a pulley holder, etc etc. It worked, but there must be another way?
(http://7782181789889801422-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/mittelstadtc/Home/file2/casltenutsocketducati.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cpgRbKfIbr8RxZ9Mqd_Y55Hc2Bs9mUJLwDUzGGuIGW9z_1NWB6_0TV_g7kjAiL6Of2O_LbT82cHZNLAS0VpTXRsHwPJRfc32YjXNh17Uw4vX13jpMQF0zaKZkUPXduhDhuY7Dg-ABcsumCGz4AflXvEjNHTR9T3fECpfdOSOPt_FFn0eNfSG4La_9sfdf3EoKWB3fnMoDzpYhEb1f-JDy7xjhnCzhvDKgdC4fJKSfL2533Y0RY%3D&attredirects=0)
(http://7782181789889801422-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/mittelstadtc/Home/file2/pulleyholderducati.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cpHZjAQUnDjbr00W8EJZ51Li0odXl4R75TDFm5Hl8P8UKV2N1Xv_hcDrCQa0PKPJsxYjBRbkkx3mjQgvJj4LPhn37nVnp0xlbZ4D2l5qTTzrdjX7UunASvUVFtMv1VlqKbLuV-fwfSez_D5RZSbivaSX8_p1L0ZQVC3yVVK2B82nWXVxzmhL42dCPIGF9GIWsaIK3xzHFFYS2LCShcy1IkF0FVkJFP-R-zD4w7BrcaEyoF2zkg%3D&attredirects=0)
mitt
...or I could say it's the engineer in you making it difficult. :P
Another reason I think Ducati "fixed" it, is because the part number changes from a 255.1.023.1A to a 255.1.023.2A for the pulley somewhere around 2005. I have always wondered if they shortened up the lip by 1mm just so the belt can be forced through.
Paging Speeddog - he has probably done a dozen of these things.
mitt
can you see any of the pictures I posted? I could see them at home, but not now at work ???
mitt
I've never measured the OD of he two pulleys, but that makes sense Mitt... I've done belts on a 03&04 M1000 and you're right... It's a pregnant dog.
Ducati also machined the cases differently on the later 1000 motors so that there's more clearance between the pulley & case.
I have some '07 1000 pulleys at the shop I could measure in the next couple days if no one pipes up that they've got some more readily available...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on June 17, 2010, 04:59:02 AM
I've never measured the OD of he two pulleys, but that makes sense Mitt... I've done belts on a 03&04 M1000 and you're right... It's a pregnant dog.
Ducati also machined the cases differently on the later 1000 motors so that there's more clearance between the pulley & case.
I have some '07 1000 pulleys at the shop I could measure in the next couple days if no one pipes up that they've got some more readily available...
A - on the 03/04's - did you have to remove the pulley, or is it humanly possible without?
B - do you have a picture of the machined case? Probably not feasible for me to do but interesting none the less.
C - that would be great if you could take some lip diameter measurements, and I will too and we can compare.
mitt
mitt is possible to remove the belt. let me post a pic. I have an 06S2R1k so i mnot sure how hte motor is. but yes its a PITA.
You just have to shuffle it from side to side. you have to have them offset*** so the cam gear and the teeth on the belt is a bit compressed. so it comes out easier. u jsut have to pull one side out then the othe side and shuffle it in and out.
(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=667&g2_serialNumber=1)
Quote from: mitt on June 17, 2010, 08:28:45 AM
B - do you have a picture of the machined case? Probably not feasible for me to do but interesting none the less.
Is it possible that the stator cover is a little bit machined? You might be able to swap yours out for an '05+ and get the clearance. If that's the case.
Quote from: He Man on June 17, 2010, 08:34:46 AM
mitt is possible to remove the belt. let me post a pic. I have an 06S2R1k so i mnot sure how hte motor is. but yes its a PITA.
The trick is to have the teeth line up with the grooves and then you kind of shuffle it side to side. if the teeth are offset on the cam gear then it will just get stuck.
here is a pic of mine for reference
(http://sites.google.com/site/mittelstadtc/Home/file2/2003monster1000dsdrivepulleyclearance.JPG)
mitt
I've always taken the drive pulleys off on the DS motors.
Taking the old belts off, I really don't care how they come out.
Putting new belts in, I'm not going to force them past a flange, as I have no desire to rebuild an engine for free.
I've got a late model DS in the shop now, I can measure the flange diameter and take a pic.
Mitt, it's humanly possible to do it without removing the pulleys ('03). It just sucks. I think the last time I may have used a pick to help get them off (because I didn't care about the belts).
Install I've always done by hand, but it's a pregnant dog.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 17, 2010, 09:10:24 AM
I've always taken the drive pulleys off on the DS motors.
I've got a late model DS in the shop now, I can measure the flange diameter and take a pic.
A - Do you reuse the castle nut or use a new one?
B - That would be great. I will measure my 2003 and we can compare with Stew.
mitt
Re-use, with blue loctite.
The torque spec is *very* tight
Do you have the pulley-holding tool?
Quote from: Speeddog on June 17, 2010, 09:46:12 AM
Re-use, with blue loctite.
The torque spec is *very* tight
Do you have the pulley-holding tool?
If not, try to borrow one from the local shop. So long as you return it un-busted...and with a 6-pack, some shops will loan tools if you're good w/the mgr.
I made the tools 3 years ago...
(http://sites.google.com/site/mittelstadtc/_/rsrc/1276738918843/Home/file2/pulleyholderducati.JPG?height=300&width=400)
(http://sites.google.com/site/mittelstadtc/_/rsrc/1276738785920/Home/file2/casltenutsocketducati.JPG?height=299&width=400)
I tried to post them earlier, but they are not showing up.
mitt
When degreeing cams, the difference between a new one and a used one will shift the camshaft 2 degrees in the keyway. New nuts are like $8 each and we have (or had?) plenty. I don't reuse them... now. But I did before that. If you read that other thread about belts, you'll see where I blather on about what works versus "best practice". If you get the nut to 50 ft-lb, it'll be fine.
:) Chris
'09 Hyper 1100
Pulley flange diameter - 2.378"
I have an 03 and was able to change belts without removeing pully, but it was close. A few thousands less clearance and I don't think they would have slipped past the pully lip. I wonder if some of the early DS bikes have just enough variation to allow some belts to come off and others not? How much do you guys think the belts vary in thickness?
did the belt son the 696 today and i sorta saw the same problem. had to flatten it as much as possible and work the edge not to get caught on the engine case or flange going in and out.
i was like "this can't be right"
If we are talking a few thousandths, would it be so wrong to Dremel a few thou off the end cap of the pulley just at that one spot?
Quote from: Speeddog on August 04, 2010, 01:19:18 PM
'09 Hyper 1100
Pulley flange diameter - 2.378"
I had the damn pulley off this weekend, and I forgot to measure. I went ahead and tried to measure it on the bike, and the best I number I can repeatable come up with is 2.3815" - so it is possible it is a little bigger. None of my measurements were below 2.38.
There was no way I was getting the belts off with the pulley on - so my memory was right. I did notice some material removed from the case under the pulley, but it didn't seem far enough out to help with getting past the pulley lip.
What Hz is everyone adjust 1000ds's too? My manual says 142, but I think that is a little high if memory serves. The laptop + mic + audacity works pretty sweet though.
I went ahead and reused the nut w/ some blue loctite and took it to 72Nm like the manual says.
mitt
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=17039.msg300058#msg300058 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=17039.msg300058#msg300058)
Got an '06 DS here in the shop.
Didn't notice it before (or did, and forgot :P )
There are 2 different pulleys.
A 'one piece' looking part, like HeMan's pic shows.
And a 2-piece unit, like Mitt's, where the flange is swaged on.
Old belts needed a tiny bit of a tug to get past the flange.
I'll see what the new belts say about install....