I wonder if someone can help me with this problem â€" bit of a longish story, but I will try to get to the nub of it quickly (you need the background first):
Bike not running smooth - and ALSO misfires badly after washing â€" or when it starts raining significantly â€" gets wet.
Background:
2006 S2R1K
35,000 km
Full Arrow, open box, O2 disconnected.
All service items, plugs included are OK. Leads â€" not sure â€" seem OK.
Had engine heads removed etc for cleaning at 20,000km â€" Ok after that â€" symptoms have developed since around 25,000km.
Had bike in around 25,000 km for check â€" clear fault on rear coil, reset TPS, check TB balance â€" seemed OK since then until 30,000 km ish.
Main symptom - runs rough â€" low throttle percentage â€" surging. And misfires a lot when wet â€" clears when bike hot/water evaporates, but still runs rough.
Duc mech checks bike -
Shows faults on both coils â€" says fault to ground or faulty ECU. According to them, they checked the coils and they were OK.
Cannot get vacuum reading at idle with carbtune on front cylinder to balance TB. At mid RPM we get signal â€" but no way to balance with rear.
Rear seems ok. Gives reading at idle.
Mech says cannot be fault with both coils/wiring â€" likely faulty ECU â€" can't check it.
Also tells me forward intake manifold has a crack/ leak in it.
I repair gasket seal and check forward manifold â€" no leak.
I also buy new DP ecu.
Install â€" bike feels better to me by seat of pants â€" but still rough at low throttle.
Check at Duc â€" still no vacuum except higher revs on forward manifold with carbtune. Rear still OK.
Check for faults with DDS shows STILL faults with both coils. So ECU not problem.
Mech tells me that it must be to do with the coils/wiring â€" and they will need to check it â€" why not do this in the first place?
Anyone got some thoughts on this.
I did also find some rat dung on the bike â€" have since dealt with the vermin â€" have looked for possible wiring issues due to this, can't see any â€" where should I be looking for this if it is associated with both coils? The main harness where the coils enter into looks intact.
How do we check coils for spark/power?
I recently replaced battery (and plugs) too â€" at same time that I started to source the replacement parts - ECU and manifold â€" 3 weeks ago.
Cheerand thanks in advance for any advice..:)
This will not be easy to solve on the internet. The poor running in the rain leads me to think ignition wires or coils are leaking. One method for spotting this is to spray a mist of water around the wires and coils while listening for a change in running. If it is dark you may even see spark jumping. Also, particularly since the DDS is leading you to bad ECU/coil ground get out your wiring diagram and check all grounds. Physically disassemble and clean them. Sometimes corrosion will change resistance with moisture. If the engine is running like crap due to misfire, that needs to be fixed before synching the throttles. If not done, TPS and CO trim needs to be set on the DP ECU. Unfortunately, like synch, you can't really set CO on a poorly running engine.
Here's an update for you on progress - and I use that term very loosely.
Finally, they checked the compression - front cylinder was only half what it should be. Rear OK. Not enough valve clearance - some burned residue around seat and valve - but not ruined - cleaned, re-installed, and now the throttle bodies can be adjusted - thank god for that.
However, there is still the fault on BOTH coils - according to the DDS. TPS has been re-set - bike is running "better" but not as smooth as I believe is should be if the electrical gremlin is found out and eliminated.
The bike does not hold a rock steady idle - it hunts up and down a bit - more when it's cold - I looked at the DDS when they checked the TPS reset etc - it was around 1250 - up and down a bit from there, but when i ride, it's a bit more erratic than that. Low throttle openings are a bit rough/jerky - and she is popping a bit on decelleration.
To me, it feels like it is sending erratic spark.
The mech at Ducati here has now basically said he has NFI about what to do - and will go look at some "bulletins" from Italy - and see if he can think of anything else.
I still don't know if he has really checked all the electrics running directly in and around the coils - I looked at the wiring set-up myself - It seems like the ground for the coils/ecu - is all linkned to the main engine ground - which grounds behind the oil breather on the rear of the right side crank case. this looks ok to me.
I guess I will need to get at it, make sure that it is clean and solid - but it looks it - and surely they would have done this?
But then, I asked them three weeks ago to check the front compression.
Could it be to do with anything like the airpressure sensor - any more tips?
I went for a ride the other day - seemed OK- but a littel rough as mentioned - I did also get some rai, and the bike contuinued to run OK - unlike previously - but again, this is unconclusive - not sure why - if the electrical problem persists, then why has the mechanical fix improved the wet-weather issues?
This is driving me absolutely nuts.
I'm very close to selling it and buying a used FZ1.
I have nothing important to add, but if your mechanic isnt a highly skilled one, you might need to look for someone else. fault finding is what your paying for most of the time. anyone can fix a bike, but it takes a real pro to find the problem. It might be worthwild for you to go and double check everything he did, and maybe go in there unplug everything inspect every wire and reattatch it firmly.
At some point you will be throwing money to have the tech do test to find a problem that he doenst even know hes looking for.
My bike have an earth cable connected directly to the ECU.
are you sure there isn't another main ground at the front left of the motor next to the front cyl. that's where it is on the 696
maybe that's loose?
Yes, that's where it is on the newer series. Mine has two - according to the wiring diagram - and from what I can see - one at the ECU - the other behind the oil breather.
S2R1k main battery ground, the one that is connected directly to the negative terminal on the battery, connects to the cases just in front of the breather.
Usual symptom of a bad main ground is starting troubles.
The ground wire under the bolt on the ECU is just for the ECU.
Have you noticed any condensation in the gauges?
No- nothing in the gauges - bike starts up ok - will check that ground as well though.
Thanks...
I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the 'coil fault' showing up in the software.
I've seen it throw a code on the coils on more than one bike.
If you have one notably weak cylinder closed loop operation will be wacky since the computer will be trying to correct for this, particularly at idle and light throttle. Have them do a cylinder leakdown test.
Yes, front compression was way off, mentioned above.
I will have more news on this tomorrow - have been playing with the TECHNORESEARCH software, and I think I am making progress...stay tuned....
Thanks...
Ok â€" ready? Here's the latest….
(quick re-cap â€" front cylinder valves were out, and yes, some deposits causing seat issues â€" that is fixed, and front compression is fine…still lingering coil faults, and rough running…)
Last night, I used the Technoresearch tool/software to inspect the bike myself.
Sure enough, the coil faults throw up â€" but more detail than the DDS â€" it says “Charge below threshold†on each coil, and it also says “Open Circuitâ€.
So, before I do anything else, I then check out the Fuel Trim setting.
(a couple of guys mentioned that the symptoms sounded like it was running lean, and that this can sometime throw coil faults â€" but I'm not sure how..???)
It is at ZERO,understandably. So I tweak it â€" up to and beyond 30 â€" until the bike starts to stumble â€" then back to 15 and set it there â€" seems like a happy idle.
(I tried it in negative “lean†â€" and the idle was up and down like a yo-yo)
Bike is cold, by the way â€" 40-50 degrees.
Then I Clear the faults, reset the TPS, start it again, check the trim â€" still at 15, so that's good, I recheck for faults, and nothing comes up. I have a scotch, watch a couple of episodes of “Californicationâ€, make a booty call and go to bed.
This morning I go for a ride. Bike starts well, holds a nice idle, and the second I pull away, I can feel the difference â€" it is AMAZINGLY SMOOTH, holds an easy throttle in first while cold â€" 2,500- 3,500 RPM, warms up flawlessly (no funky idling) â€" is super mild and smooth on small throttle openings, is a joy to ride in traffic, and pulls really well and smooth.
I can get on the throttle earlier when exiting corners and be more aggressive in general without the jerky, snatchy response.
I can on and off the throttle in first without the need to feather the clutch like before.
Oh, and the bike also sounds different. A lower, deeper smoother thrumming sound â€" zero popping â€" the occasional burble, but no strong pops â€" it's just smooth up and down through the rev range and on hard over runs, downshifts it's fine. WOW.
So, I come back home â€" bike's hot â€" 110 degrees, I let it cool and I test again.
Faults come up again. I clear them, they come up again, and again, and again.
So it seems the faults only appear when the bike is Warmed up….I will test this theory again tomorrow when the bike is cold.
I adjust the trim slightly up to 17 (re-set TPS), and it seems slightly more stable, although no real issues at 15 â€" I will test it at 17 again tomorrow.
Now, something else to mention… I also tested the function of the circuits for the coils, injectors etc â€" I could hear a hissing or clicking sound when I checked all of these.
When I checked the stepper motor, there was no noise. I wonder if there should be, and if this could be at all related to the coil fault issue? I'm using the DP ECU â€" does this still operate the stepper motor?
In summary, I guess the key point is…
…if bike seems to be running well, should I continue to hunt the devilish coil faults â€" or are they just “one of those random thingsâ€?
If I could get an exhaust sniffer and carbtune, I could finish the set up properly to a tee, and then live with the coil fault nemesis...just like Nicholson in the movie “Pledge†where he continues to hunt to serial killer, even though unbeknownst to him, the killer met with an untimely end himself.
Thoughts..?
There must be a shop somewhere with an exhaust gas analyzer and a dyno. Coil output can be measured with an automotive lab scope. http://www.labscopes.com/pg11.htm (http://www.labscopes.com/pg11.htm) is for an old school conventional system. Your pattern will be different, but the idea is the same. Best would be to compare with a known good running SR2.
This back yard test will work too. http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coiltest-manual.htm (http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coiltest-manual.htm)
You can also measure primary and secondary resistance on your coils. No published specs that I know of, so you would need to compare with known good coils.
Or maybe you could get the dealer to loan you some known good coils since you have been through hell with this.
Do recheck every ground. All the computer knows is coil output is low. It has no idea why. Oh, just for the hellovit, check coil polarity too.
Ok - the latest on this - take bike out today for a good run, and I can tell fairly quickly all is not exactly right.
Bike starts OK - but feels like there's some sort of misfire or weak spark. Gets progressively worse through the ride - especially at lower RPM.
Get back home, pull the front plug lead - bike stalls.
Pull the rear lead, bike continues to run.
I stop bike, first pull front plugs, one by one, re-connect leads, earht plug and start bike.
Won't start with only one front plug in,
Will start with only one rear plug in.
Does this likely point to a coil breakdown when the bike is warm/hot - and if so, does this mean the front or rear coil is the weak one? My instinctive answer is front - but when I think about it, it should be the rear - cos the bike fires when the rear plug is removed - but won't when the front one is.
I doubt that a fueling or TB balance issue could cause this type of dramatic effect - correct?
Any thoughts?
PS - condition of the rear plugs was considerably more sooty looking than the front.
Howie, dealer checked coils - say they are OK - but I fear this is intermittent and gets worse when hot.
can you swap the coils front to rear for further testing ?
QuoteHowie, dealer checked coils - say they are OK - but I fear this is intermittent and gets worse when hot.
Coils will do that. You need to check them when the fault happens. You can get a break in the winding that only opens up when the coil is hot.
There are no published specs since Ducati's method is use the DDS. You could measure your known good coil as a spec. Measure the resistance across the small connectors and the resistance from the tower to the negative terminal. Or do it the easier, faster way, swap spark plug wires from coil to coil. If the miss switches cylinders you have a bad coil. Check the ignition wires too. There are resisters in them that can go bad.
Just thought I'd put the final result up here.
Turns out the bike had poorly adjusted valves, which led to compression issue, and then also badly adjusted throttle bodies.
The coil faults still show up, but the bike runs fine. I guess it's just one of those quirks. It's a Clayton's Fault - the fault you have when you're not really having a fault.
Cheers...