Skimmed from Hellforleather
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/07/photo-casey-stoner-tackle-the.html (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/07/photo-casey-stoner-tackle-the.html)
(http://hellforleathermagazine.com/images/Casey-Stoner-Corkscrew.jpg)
Are we still too early for this? We don't even have a confirmation on the Ducati-Rossi deal... ???
"Honda rider Casey Stoner's line is perfect, but if you're Ducati's Valentino Rossi, you can just cut through the dirt"
No, this picture illustrates how slow Stoner really is. He is actually lapping himself!
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
^ Thats what I got out of it too. [beer]
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 10:28:15 AM
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
i'd say that's the case for most street riders. once you get on a track, you actually have to
make the bike do something at speed and you're more likely to be on the "wrong" side of the bike fighting to get it to switch direction.
Quote from: derby on July 22, 2010, 10:41:34 AM
i'd say that's the case for most street riders. once you get on a track, you actually have to make the bike do something at speed and you're more likely to be on the "wrong" side of the bike fighting to get it to switch direction.
You are likely right. Having never been on a track I guess I wouldn't really know. It must take just amazing timing/judgment to do that at speed. Pro or Am, I'm impressed.
Derby, you've been through the corkscrew plenty of times, yeah? Is my assumption that your front end gets quite a bit lighter thereby making pulling the bike over that much harder correct?
sac
Quote from: spolic on July 22, 2010, 09:58:32 AM
No, this picture illustrates how slow Stoner really is. He is actually lapping himself!
There is a ton of bad shit you can rag on stoner for, slow isn't one of them
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 11:06:17 AM
Derby, you've been through the corkscrew plenty of times, yeah? Is my assumption that your front end gets quite a bit lighter thereby making pulling the bike over that much harder correct?
i've only been through it twice and, unfortunately, not at "fun" pace...
i think some of the sfo guys have done trackdays there and could provide some insight.
... and still no mention of the billboard in the background [laugh]
You start turning the other direction as soon as you hit the apex at the top, even though your front end isn't planted (which makes it EASY to crash). But because of the drop and the speed you're traveling, you can't move as fast as you want. You're already a little bit down the hill before you actually get crossed up. The really hard part is that as you get in faster and faster, you take the first apex with more lean angle, and you have to flick it over harder. In fact, when you first start riding the corkscrew, most people start standing the bike up well before they get to the first apex. That allows them to come into the turn already stood up (and moving slower) so they don't have to flick as hard in the other direction. As you get faster and faster, you learn to trust your line and how quickly you can get the bike from full right lean to full left lean. But it's still really hard to commit to full lean going in to the first apex knowing how hard you going to have to flick it over to the right. It's also blind, so you have to commit to going in at full lean and trust that your trajectory is right. It's pretty make the beast with two backsin' scary.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: Spidey on July 22, 2010, 11:21:54 AM
You start turning the other direction as soon as you hit the apex at the top, even though your front end isn't planted (which makes it EASY to crash). But because of the drop and the speed you're traveling, you can't move as fast as you want. You're already a little bit down the hill before you actually get crossed up. The really hard part is that as you get in faster and faster, you take the first apex with more lean angle, and you have to flick it over harder. In fact, when you first start riding the corkscrew, most people start standing the bike up well before they get to the first apex. That allows them to come into the turn already stood up (and moving slower) so they don't have to flick as hard in the other direction. As you get faster and faster, you learn to trust your line and how quickly you can get the bike from full right lean to full left lean. But it's still really hard to commit to full lean going in to the first apex knowing how hard you going to have to flick it over to the right. It's also blind, so you have to commit to going in at full lean and trust that your trajectory is right. It's pretty make the beast with two backsin' scary.
Egads. So what the hell do you look at? What are your eyes doing since they can't see track? I mean, if you're already wrenching the bike over to get into a turn you can't see yet what do you focus your eyes on to keep them from wandering. I presume the motogp guys just shut them and use the force.
sac
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 11:44:51 AM
Egads. So what the hell do you look at? What are your eyes doing since they can't see track? I mean, if you're already wrenching the bike over to get into a turn you can't see yet what do you focus your eyes on to keep them from wandering. I presume the motogp guys just shut them and use the force.
sac
my guess is there is a reference point to focus on...
there was a track i used to race at that had a blind-entry turn and my reference point was a radio tower on the adjacent property; point the bike at the tower and twist the thottle.
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 11:44:51 AM
Egads. So what the hell do you look at? What are your eyes doing since they can't see track? I mean, if you're already wrenching the bike over to get into a turn you can't see yet what do you focus your eyes on to keep them from wandering. I presume the motogp guys just shut them and use the force.
sac
Like Derby said...you just pick something to look at. Lots of tracks have blind corners due to elevation change. The Attitudes at Miller for instance, are like a mini corkscrew. You just make sure you hit the first turn's apex, and focus on something in the direction you need to be going at that point. I can't remember what I focus on at Miller...but I know it is something.
Quote from: Triple J on July 22, 2010, 11:59:42 AM
I can't remember what I focus on at Miller...but I know it is something.
i hope you remember when you go back. ;D
The trees at the base are used as reference pts.
BTW, there's google streetview of the track if anyone wants to play around.
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on July 22, 2010, 11:07:37 AM
There is a ton of bad $H!t you can rag on stoner for, slow isn't one of them
That's not what she said!
geez it was just a joke
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 10:28:15 AM
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
If you look at the wheels you can see how far he's pushing the bike to countersteer. With the wheels at those angles one of two things are gonna happen, Either the bike changes direction reaaally quickly, or your ass gets thrown into the stratosphere.
Rossi's line is more impressive. best race at laguna seca. hands down.
(http://image.sportrider.com/f/11803037+w750+st0/146_0810_01_z+laguna_seca_USGP+rossi_and_stoner.jpg)
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 10:28:15 AM
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
Good observation sac. Yeah, he's a step ahead for his next move. You've got better eyes than me!
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 10:28:15 AM
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
Must be nice to have such great vision !
I know what you're talking about but I still can't see it no matter how hard I stare at it .
Perhaps you are just instinctively astute.
Dolph :)
Quote from: SacDuc on July 22, 2010, 10:28:15 AM
Look at the seventh, eighth and ninth Stoners from the right. He is already crossed up and yanking that bike over. That just impresses me. I would bet for most rider's (say almost anything below professional) the bike's centrifugal force has already brought the bike up before the rider can even assist. But look at Stoner get on pulling the bike over for the next turn that early. Very cool sequence of photographs.
[thumbsup]
sac
Ah, now I see it !
I can feel myself fighting the forces of gravity and gyroscope in raising the bike from down low , up and ready to move into position for the opposite lean.
Dolph :)
Quote from: He Man on July 22, 2010, 01:44:45 PM
Rossi's line is more impressive. best race at laguna seca. hands down.
(http://image.sportrider.com/f/11803037+w750+st0/146_0810_01_z+laguna_seca_USGP+rossi_and_stoner.jpg)
Was that really a fair pass ?
In all fairness ? Aren't you suppose to stay ON the track ?
Dolph
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 22, 2010, 04:52:21 PM
Was that really a fair pass ?
In all fairness ? Aren't you suppose to stay ON the track ?
Dolph
you should probably go back and watch the race. (laguna 2008)
Quote from: derby on July 22, 2010, 04:56:12 PM
you should probably go back and watch the race. (laguna 2008)
I saw the race and at the time didn't think it was fair !
Dolph
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 22, 2010, 05:11:51 PM
I saw the race and at the time didn't think it was fair !
(here we go again...)
let's review:
Rossi-Stoner Laguna Seca 2008 battle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfPM77TsGaA#normal)
what exactly was so unfair about it?
(yeah, i should probably just link back to the other 20 discussions we've had about this)
Utube has disabled the video.
....all I said was unfair was that I thought that Rossi took unfair advantage by passing on the inside off the course which seems obvious by the blue and white grid .
Stoner is inside , Rossi is outside of the boundary.
If it is legal to go off the course to pass, or take a short cut , then so be it.
Whatever the rules are.
Dolph :)
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 22, 2010, 05:58:35 PM
Utube has disabled the video.
....all I said was unfair was that I thought that Rossi took unfair advantage by passing on the inside off the course which seems obvious by the blue and white grid .
Stoner is inside , Rossi is outside of the boundary.
If it is legal to go off the course to pass, or take a short cut , then so be it.
Whatever the rules are.
Dolph :)
It isn't legal to go off the track and gain an advantage.
Rossi was ahead of Stoner when he entered the corner though, prior to going off track, so no advantage was gained.
I took the Rossi line my first time around unassisted :o
once you are set up for the right side turn.... you can get on the gas early.
nobody ever mentions it..... but turn 11 is the tricky one. It's a slow corner but it suckers you into to thinking you can do it fast.
Quote from: Triple J on July 22, 2010, 06:13:53 PM
It isn't legal to go off the track and gain an advantage.
Rossi was ahead of Stoner when he entered the corner though, prior to going off track, so no advantage was gained.
Thank you for that explanation Triple J.
Makes sense to me now.
Dolph :)
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 22, 2010, 05:58:35 PM
Utube has disabled the video.
only disabled embedding.. just right-click > watch on youtube.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 22, 2010, 06:24:40 PM
Thank you for that explanation Triple J.
Makes sense to me now.
Dolph :)
but he wouldnt have been able to STAY ahead of stoner without doing what he did.
I thought then and I think now it was a bullshit move.
I'm with you, avixpls, but we're in the minority.
By the majority's reasoning, you can straightline the corkscrew every time as a means of passing. If you're behind someone, aim for the dirst and don't brake completely. That way you'll jump ahead of them before the first apex. Then you're free to run through the dirt and get back on the track at the bottom. Then again, that'll kill your drive out, but apparently, it's an A-OK move. I've never thought so, but we've already beaten the topic to death in a million other threads.
Here is how they did it in the old days.
The corkscrew is around the 1 minute mark with a lap around the track to follow.
I am a big vintage superbike fan!
ヨã,·ãƒ ラ　YOSHIMURA 　 SUPERBIKERS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqWYQ_SsQqw#normal)
Quote from: avizpls on July 23, 2010, 07:59:12 AM
but he wouldnt have been able to STAY ahead of stoner without doing what he did.
I thought then and I think now it was a bullshit move.
IIRC, when he came back on track he was side-by-side with Stoner though...so he actually lost ground with the move. However, he pushed Stoner wide so he couldn't get a good drive out either (which is common on a LOT of moto passes, not just this one). Therefore, it was an OK move.
It was close for sure...but he didn't intentionally cut a corner to get ahead, and he didn't gain any ground (intentional move or not), so it was deemed OK I guess.
It has been beat to death like Spidey said. However, it is THE moment when Rossi firmly planted himself in Stoner's head. [laugh]
Yup. And now Rossi dangles Stoner's twig and berries from his rearview mirror like an airfreshener.
That vid is neat, Blue. I've never seen onboard video with the pre-1988 layout (without the 2-3-4-5 infield section).
That is an awesome video.
Quote from: Blue on July 23, 2010, 08:15:11 AM
Here is how they did it in the old days.
The corkscrew is around the 1 minute mark with a lap around the track to follow.
I am a big vintage superbike fan!
ヨã,·ãƒ ラ　YOSHIMURA 　 SUPERBIKERS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqWYQ_SsQqw#normal)
I love it, commentary while you blow by other riders. [thumbsup]
I rode Laguna years ago. The only thing I remember as vividly as the corkscrew was the turn that came next. A long sweeping left hander with an off camber that would suck you out to the right side in a heart beat. It still scares me thinking about lo these many years later.
Those are some fantastic videos. I guess I need to watch more motogp! Hearing all of this makes me anxious to get on a track, but fearful that I'd start off doing the whole thing at about 30mph. [roll]
What the pros can do just amazes me.
Great Video, Blue. Thanks [thumbsup]
Great to see the old Superbikes go through turn two and three as originally layed-out
Threadjack-
Regarding the "old" track configuration. Bobby Rahal said (in 1983) that turn two had the highest
"pucker factor" of any turn they raced on - the suspension bottoming out at near top speed.
Sometimes, I wish they hadn't changed the layout for the FIA track length requirement.
More thread jacking - Announced attendance for this years Sunday Moto GP was a bit over 50,000.
The CART race in 1983 announced 68,000 IIRC (but I AM old)
This may be a Derby (though a search didn't find it), but I love this story of the origins of the Corkscrew -- according to Jerry Blair, the equipment operator who ran the dozer that cut the track's first pass, that was the only way he could get the bulldozer down the hill!
http://www.roadracerx.com/features/website-exclusive/the-man-behind-the-corkscrew-jerry-blair/ (http://www.roadracerx.com/features/website-exclusive/the-man-behind-the-corkscrew-jerry-blair/)