Ducati Monster Forum

How come no one has mentioned the new Superbike - Superquadrata?

I always wondered why Ducati didn't rotate the engine backward and side it forward.  112mm X 60mm and 14,000 RPM and no trellis frame?

What's up?  ???  [coffee]

Just a cruel hoax?

LA

It's long been rumored Ducati will be moving away from belt drives
It's long been rumored Ducati will be moving away from trellis frames to a carbon fiber mini-frame/airbox (most plausible, IMHO)
It's long been rumored Ducati will be moving to a radically oversquare engine.
It's long been rumored Ducati wants to move away from a 90 degree twin. The new bit is the reversed L twin, which I'm still trying to wrap my head around how that'd improve mass centralization. Let alone how that'd fit in the bike....

Anyway, old rumors mixed with new and a dash of silly season means... Superquadrata!

Super-square? [bang]

Is that where they make it perfectly square... and then go a little further?  Like having an 11 on the volume knob.

Motorcyclist says we'll see it at Milan.  90 degree, desmo gear driven cams F1 style finger followers.  Cam drive terminates in small chains that operate the rocker arms.  The engine is rotated rearward and moved forward allowing a longer swing arm.  The article says cases split so that a cassette gear box will allow easy gear changes.

The brief writeup is written as if they know of what they speak.  They say it's  based on a design for a twin GP machine done in 2001.

We'll see.

LA

a hypermotard is in the works ;)

You may find a bit more here on the mooted new Duc Superbike (http://www.ducati-superbikes.com/images/kawi.pdf).

It sounds exciting, with gears to short chains driving the cams, and obviously high max horsepower. Keeps the desmo valve train.

Only thing is, I'm not sure it will make a better road bike. The design will add top-end, which will be nice for the racers, but I'm not aware the 1198s have a shortage for road riding.

Probably good for road bike marketing tho.  [laugh]

Will be interesting how the handling changes with the rotated engine. Layout will be more like KTM's. People seem to like the steering on those.

Nice link  [thumbsup]

Actually gives some details and explains (a bit) why we've been hearing those other rumors for so long. And explains that it'll be a 90 degree V twin, not some oddball reversed L as previously rumored.

As they say on MythBusters: "Plausible"

Wait a minute, Ducati is making a motard?

;D

So where is the pic of a supposed "Superquadrata"?

this is close

SuziQuatro
Suzi Quatro - Rock Hard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6YOhfHwpLQ#normal)

Motorcyclist Magazine's latest issue has what they perceive the " Superquadrata " will likely look like.

Dolph     :)

I guess I missed the link on this thread... ???

Dunno why they're going with gears *and* chains.
I'd like to see more info.

Plain bearings on the crank or still ball and/or roller bearings?

Does the magazine have any photos or accurate layout drawings on the engine?

This is all I've seen on it

http://www.moto.it/news/ducati-avanti-col-nuovo-bicilindrico.html (http://www.moto.it/news/ducati-avanti-col-nuovo-bicilindrico.html)

Per google translate:

For several months in the department experiences of Bologna-run counter to several copies of the new engine with two cylinders, created to counter the offensive quadricilindrici in World Superbike, but not only ...
Architecture is always 90 ° V, but now the front cylinder is tilted and not horizontal (and hence the latter is no longer vertical). This, to limit the footprint longitudinal engine, not contained in the current Ducati twins.
The bore of the new engine is an impressive 112 mm, but it seems that now they have been proven most others, it seems certain that the engine will be the first of a new generation of twins of different displacements: this is a record value, which valves allow the adoption of larger and a smaller race, with great benefits for performance. The engine can reach higher and breathe better.
The measures for the characteristics of the twin Superbike races thus passed from the current 106 x 112 x 67.9 mm to 60.9 mm.


"The new engine's bore is 112 mm well, but it seems that now they have been proven most others, it seems certain that the engine will be the first of a new generation of twins of different displacements"

Among the technical solutions we highlight the neglect of rolling bearings and bushings in favor of the one removable cylinder, replaced by other integral with the base and fitted with rods set, like "wet" (directly bathed by coolant ) and upper edge of support. Even the timing belts are abandoned: the two camshafts housed in each head are driven by a short chain more gears. The distribution, obviously, remains desmodromic.
The twin-cylinder Ducati's future is a reality, but we already know that next year we will see him in the race nor in regular production.

Bore records!
The new twin-cylinder Ducati has therefore a very high value of boring. A record in the motorcycle, which for the moment still belongs to the twin Morini 1200, with 107 mm, closely followed by the same Ducati 1198 R, with 106 mm. For several years previously, the record was held by the cylinder Suzuki DR Big, product displacement of 750 cm3 and 800, with 105 mm: the same value reached by the recent twin KTM RC 8.
It may be worth pointing out at the other extreme, in that two-stroke tricilindrico RP 68 GP 50 cm3 (!) Made by Suzuki for the 1968 season, which turned to the bench but never ran due to the withdrawal from the House ' competitive activity, the bore was only 28 mm ...

(http://www.moto.it/static/upl/eng/engine.jpg)

Just another bike Ducati won't be selling me. Can't get the KTM sm off my mind. Don't want/need any more SBKs. Someone please tell me they aren't going to build that cruiser looking "thing"! That would make me scrape off all the Duc stickers on my bikes! [bang] Maybe the thought of that being built is why Lock quit DNA! Do you blame him?

[jack]
I'll make you a good deal on my SuperDuke   [evil]
[/jack]

Stop following me to different threads tormenting me with your KTM sale!! [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

You're being stalked. ..

[laugh]

There appears to be something lost in the translation.

when is belt final drive coming?

I don't have a photo of it, but at the factory in Bologna there is a "technology" room which is their engine research group.  They ahve a sample of every engine ever made by Ducati (well, the motorcycle engines) that was sold on a production bike.  Not the one-offs for custom racers. 

Ducati has made a variety of engines in the last 75+ years.  I have been a little shocked that the 90 deg L twin has persisted so long.  It's like the annoying girlfriend who has goddess-like amazing oral ability, you just can't break up with her. 

I would love to see Ducati introduce at least 2 other engines in their lineup.  One would be a lightweight single, no bigger than 500cc and one would be a 4 cyl. 

There is no doubt the L-twin -- air or water cooled -- is amazing, but give them a break.  It's not heresy.  Other companies hop around engine designs every 5-7 years and do well.

I just took my personal mecca to the Ducati factory last week. You are correct about the engine room it is small next to the Hyper and Monster assembly lines the lady said it was the R&D for engines and GP bikes. You could only look through a small window about the size of a dinner plate but it was cool being there and seeing how everything is made. On a side note there was something that rolled out the factory that is a not in current line up. Couldn't get the camera out to snap a picture plus it was all covered up with the masking and tape.

Probably a Honda ridden by an employee. They were embarassed to have it on the property. [laugh]

Hopefully never.   >:(

Any more news on this?

Not that I've heard.

Not that I hear much on the topic, but I am here, so I guess I'd hear it here.

And so will you!

. . .

Right. Anyway....

As I'm sure you've also read, Ducati isn't going superbike racing next year, which means something big is up.

Me? I'm pulling for a V4 with the "big-bang" firing order of the old 990 GP bike.

This wish probably won't come true, but then most of my wishes don't.

In any case, time shall tell.




(All a fancy, longwinded way to say "I don't know shit...")

From what I've read online the superquadrata sounds like a 2 cylinder version on the D16 4.  Ducati is a small company that can not afford to build all new engines every 2 years like the japanesse can.  The current twin is a great engine but is still based on the pantah 500 of the 80's.  Gear drive cams would be great, no more belt replacement plus that cool whine, I always loved it on the RC51. 

There’s talk of the engine being rotated backwards 90°!

If it’s true it’s a revolution in more than one sense in meaning of the word ‘rotate’.  It throws up lots of interesting questions like ‘WHERE’S’ the transmission going to go??  Well it would have to go between the cylinders and it would also conveniently point back towards the rear wheel of the motorcycle and be positioned right between the L of the cylinders too.  If the transmission was positiond between the cylinders it would also be possible to take the cam drive to both cylinder heads directly from off of the clutch gear ring, it would get the cam drive conveniently way up towards and between both of the two cylinders and almost at the actual height of the cams in the cylinder heads themselves.  This would go a long way to negate the need for two long gear trains going all the way up to each of the individual cylinder heads. 

There’s absolutely tons of potential in this configuration; I’m impatient and can’t wait to see what happens. 

Seems that would make the intake and exhaust plumbing very difficult.

the rotating is on the order of something like 15 or 30 degrees back. not 180.
closer to a V instead of an L that's all
it allows a longer swingarm and still keep a short wheelbase
moves the bulk of the weight forward as well.

and from what i've read it is a V4
I expect the 11 deg testastretta is going to stay as well eventually dropping the standard testastretta
so I expect
V4 16v
L2 4v (11 deg)
L2 2v (non-DS evo)

and since they are building(built?) new facilities, they probably can handle the 3rd engine production line.

Where have you read V4? I haven't seen anything even hinting at that. From what I've read, the engine is rotated like you describe, it will use gears instead of belts, and the motor will be highly oversquare to increase rev capability.

actually that's pain meds talking

V2 not V4

(http://www.cloudfactory.org/~ki/SuperQuadrata.bmp)

Cycle World's mobile app website has an article on the new SB.  I didn't see it on the main website yet, but interesting data!  It posted back on 1/12, I don't know how I missed it until now.

Of course it is all speculation until you see the real thing, but I trust them better than MCN.

its going to make an 1198 look inexpensive, price-wise.

If this is true, I am glad Ducati is branching out on their engine designs.  I know it's a big reach for them to make new powerplants given the costs involved but I think it's a big limiting factor in their appeal to new buyers -- basically the same engine setup for almost every bike -- the main difference is air vs water cooled.  A 2V desmodue is still the same basic engine from 1985.

but that turd sparkles now

LOL!

man if this is true they can no longer be considered a poor man's Ferrari.  I don't mind innovation but the prices may be in the stratosphere....hope not.

Wow, so far no Derby notifications!  I can't believe this hadn't been posted yet.  I had looked for it but wasn't sure it hadn't been posted elsewhere.  

Anyhow, it is nice to see Ducati catching up with John Briton finally.  His designs were so far ahead of their time in the mid-90's that you can only imagine what he would have done by now.  In my opinion the #1 biggest untimely loss to motorcycles ever.  

In regards to price, we are all in for a nasty surprise in the coming years.  Just look at the price of a new 600cc supersport.  If a base model Suzi is going just south of $12g's, I can't imagine what the next SBK is going to cost.  Here's hoping it is at least semi-attainable. [roll]

Britten is to motorcycling what JFK is to being president.  Did some interesting things, and everything else is myth. 

You never know what Britten might have done.  A little success and then just add coke and hookers and you're back to the same woulda/coulda stories.

I agree. Losing John Britten was a blow to motorcycle racing and the industry itself. My best friend's older brother has one of the 10 Brittens ever made in his office here in Dallas. He's the same guy I posted about in the Racing/Trackdays section when he broke the old Goldenrod speed record at Bonneville last fall. Every time I see him he says he's going take me to lunch and let me oogle over the Britten and his other unobtainable goodies. If it ever happens I'm taking a camera!

Again, Britten's passing was a kick in the shorts for everyone. Interesting that his family has never sold out the design. There will never be a #11. Too bad.

I, and many other duc owners, won't let that stop us. You only need 1 kidney.

How is it a branching out of their engine design? It's just the latest iteration of the current SBK motor which will now be tilted rearward in the frame a little. Still a water-cooled, 4 valve, 1200cc, 90* twin, with desmo valves though. Granted, gears instead of belts. Am I missing something else?  ???

The chassis seems to be the big leap forward.

It is branching out somewhat -- from the top, you can practically confuse a 1985 Pantah case and a Testrastretta case from a distance (I mean just the case halves together) -- same basic 11 deg vertical and 79 deg horizontal -- which is shared by all 2v and 4v engines.  even the supermono...

even moving the jugs somewhat is a big step given this design persistence. 

yeah gotta go with the leap forward on this one,

cassette type gears, different V layout not just the motor tilted, cam gear drive, i bet the internals are going to be a lot different as well with the huge oversquare ratio.

ok it's a 90 deg twin with desmo valves...

everything else will be new.

I heard that a small group of people saw an early version of it. They were impressed with what little they saw.

It is "inexpensive". Yes I put quotes around it (I can't afford one), but the 1198 SP is better and cheaper than last years 1198 S model.

LA