I am about at my limit of sanity with the 999s that I bought a couple of months back. Here is the scoop:
Bought a used 04 999s from an individual two months ago. He was the 2nd owner. Bike was originally purchased at the shop that I bought and have my Monster serviced. The 999 has had all of its services at the same shop as my Monster. It had 8300 miles on it when I bought it. No issues as time of purchase.
I started noticing a studder after about a week (mostly when I first started it up). That turned into it missing and backfiring. I had already set up a used bike inspection appointment at the shop, but the Duc techs were at a training seminar for a week, so there was a wait before I could get it in.
When they did the inspection, the diagnosis was that the vertical cylinder wasn't firing every time. Not sure what, or how they check, but it was determined that the 54mm Termi ECU was OK and that the problem was mechanical. So, new plugs, plug wires, belts (belt had a small nick) were installed. Valves were all OK and were within tolerances. No issues with the piston or other enternals. They switched the coils, plugs, wires, etc. to the horizontal cylinder and everything worked (but, the same parts that were originally on the horizontal cylinder failed on the vertical). So, they focused on the ECU again (apperantly, the ECUs on that year model has some issues).
The service manager at the shop located the original owner, who still had the stock ECU / exhaust, and asked him if we could use ECU to test the bike. He was nice enough to bring it up to the shop for a test. No luck, the vert cyclinder still failed to fire. So......, if the bike is OK mechanically, and the ECU seems to be OK, what the hell is wrong with it? Or, a better question would be, what else needs to be checked?
It is obvious that the tech working on it is very frustrated with it. As am I. I have no issues with the service department, they are being very cool about the labor/hour charges. Nor do I have any issues with the tech. He is keeping very detailed records of what he is doing and is keeping all of the parts (belts, plugs, etc.) that he replaces to show me why he did so. I just want the make the beast with two backsing bike to work. Now, I am no mechanic, so my explaination might be confusing, but if anyone has any suggestions, ideas, anything that might be a help in diagnosing the problem(s), I would greatly appreciate it.
In any more detail is needed, I can find out and get the info posted. So, anything you got, boys and girls!
could you use some paragraphs as damn hard to read it
from what i can gleam
new parts were installed on bike
you have a problem with the horizonal cylinder not firing
parts were then swapped from the horizonal to the vertical cylinder
the problem has now moved to the vertical cylinder
is that right ?
if that is the case and the problem moves then it is a problem of 1 of the parts not the ecu
swapping parts 1 by 1 should show you the faulty part
Quote from: J5 on August 24, 2010, 11:08:45 PM
could you use some paragraphs as damn hard to read it
...
parts were then swapped from the horizonal to the vertical cylinder
the problem has now moved to the vertical cylinder
...
+1 on the paragraphs
Parts were swapped, but the problem stayed.
Quote from: psycledelic on August 24, 2010, 10:48:30 PM
...
So is there, or is there not a spark at the cylinder in question?
Did they check fueling to the cylinder in question?
wiring harness for the vertical cylinder?
Were they able to tell if the problem is spark or fuel? They could try swapping injectors.
999/749 as well as 848/1098 have had some harness issues.
Quote from: ducpainter on August 25, 2010, 02:00:29 AM
999/749 as well as 848/1098 have had some harness issues.
+1, sounds like a harness issue to me.
Problem stayed on the vertical cylinder when suspect parts were swapped, and when the OEM ECU was installed.
Quote from: J5 on August 24, 2010, 11:08:45 PM
could you use some paragraphs as damn hard to read it
somewhat corrected. Sorry!
Quote from: howie on August 25, 2010, 01:26:59 AM
Were they able to tell if the problem is spark or fuel? They could try swapping injectors.
Spark. When the cylinder does fire, the bike backfires like a Howitzer. I assume that is from the built up fuel.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 25, 2010, 07:38:16 AM
+1, sounds like a harness issue to me.
Problem stayed on the vertical cylinder when suspect parts were swapped, and when the OEM ECU was installed.
I called the shop and asked about the harness. The service manager said that the tech checked the wiring with a cyloscope(?) and it was OK. Sound right?
You mean oscilloscope? That instrument takes a picture of what is happening when your cylinder is firing in voltage and time. Great tool, but it does not check the wiring itself. It could offer great clues though. I would try speaking directly to the tech.
Quote from: howie on August 25, 2010, 01:26:59 AMThey could try swapping injectors.
It sounds like that is just about the only thing left. I've heard of injectors getting stuck open and flooding the cylinder.
Quote from: howie on August 25, 2010, 07:00:56 PM
You mean oscilloscope? That instrument takes a picture of what is happening when your cylinder is firing in voltage and time. Great tool, but it does not check the wiring itself. It could offer great clues though. I would try speaking directly to the tech.
Yeah, oscilloscope is what I meant. Just didn't know what it was or what it does. I agree about talking directly to the tech. There always seems to be info lost in translation when the service manager is the middle man during a phone conversation. I am going up there again tomorrow. Is there any documentation on an issue with the problems with wiring harnesses on or around that year model? It would be nice to have something to show him. I would prefer to not come off as the clueless, dickhead customer in the service bay that is trying to tell him how to do his job. They are being VERY cool about the labor charges on all of the troubleshooting time that has accrued. I don't want that to end.
Unless I'm missing something, all the primary suspects have been scrutinized and checked individually, and all suspects are deemed healthy.
Yet the bike runs like crap.
Clearly one of the suspects is your perpetrator.
I had my OEM S4 ECU go bad, lost the vertical coil output or signal.
I swapped all things swappable, coils (coil on plug, so no wires) and injectors.
Engine runs crappy when the injector drivers are crossed V-H.
Due to the immobilizer, had to borrow a complete S4 setup to confirm that my ECU was fried.
I've had bad grounds make a bike crank crappy and not start.
Voltage that the ECU was seeing during startup went too low, spark output got flaky.
Engine wouldn't light.
AFAIK you can swap the injectors.
My money's still on your harness malfunction.
I include all the connectors as a part of the harness, the connectors are the usual first suspect.
Quote from: Bill in OKC on August 25, 2010, 07:19:44 PM
It sounds like that is just about the only thing left. I've heard of injectors getting stuck open and flooding the cylinder.
The tech said that he had ruled out the injectors being the problem. If they were flooding the cylinder, would that cause the cylinder not to fire?
Quote from: Speeddog on August 25, 2010, 07:39:36 PM
Unless I'm missing something, all the primary suspects have been scrutinized and checked individually, and all suspects are deemed healthy.
Yet the bike runs like crap.
Clearly one of the suspects is your perpetrator.
I had my OEM S4 ECU go bad, lost the vertical coil output or signal.
I swapped all things swappable, coils (coil on plug, so no wires) and injectors.
Engine runs crappy when the injector drivers are crossed V-H.
Due to the immobilizer, had to borrow a complete S4 setup to confirm that my ECU was fried.
I've had bad grounds make a bike crank crappy and not start.
Voltage that the ECU was seeing during startup went too low, spark output got flaky.
Engine wouldn't light.
AFAIK you can swap the injectors.
My money's still on your harness malfunction.
I include all the connectors as a part of the harness, the connectors are the usual first suspect.
I agree that the wiring harness is quite possibly the problem. Is there a certain procedure to check that, or am I gonna have to by a new harness and hope for the best?
Electricals are a kick in the ass, aren't they? :P
You can check a bunch of pins on the connector.
There's quite a few.
Quote from: psycledelic on August 25, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
The tech said that he had ruled out the injectors being the problem. If they were flooding the cylinder, would that cause the cylinder not to fire?
If the tech has ruled them out, OK. I just hadn't seen that mentioned before. A bad injector will cause a cylinder not to fire if it is stuck closed or to flood if stuck open - maybe it will still run or occasionally hit but very very rich. It has the added bad side effect of washing the bore. Old e10 can cause either case. Another issue I have had personal experience with is an injector coil shorting out internally. Good luck.
My guess would be the crank sensor is either bad or dirty, its a magnet and can pick up metal shavings.
Those things are hard to diagnose and rarely go bad.
If the tech is good with a scope he will be able to spot a notably bad injector by the firing line. Certainly he would notice a difference between the cylinders. The tech should also , if the problem is ignition, if you have a wiring problem. Something wrong with the primary signal would lead to a wiring, computer or primary coil winding problem. Something wrong with the secondary signal would lead to secondary winding, spark plug, mixture or or mechanical problem. A scope can also be used to check injector opening and closing. Once the problem is found, then pin point testing would be needed to find the fault. This used to much easier back in the days of breaker point ignition. Problem is each vehicle now has it's own unique pattern.
In the world of motorcycle repair it sounds like your tech is hands above most others just because he is using a scope. If the tech can take a snap shot of the pattern you could post the pattern and that from a known good bike I might be able to help.
I am not going against the popular opinion you have a harness problem. If it were a horse and I was a betting man I would bet on it. Problem is to replace it without knowing for sure is real expensive.
I have a harness you can try. If it works, then bingo (and you pay me for the part). If it doesn't, just send it back.
$150 shipped. [thumbsup]
Quote from: TAftonomos on August 26, 2010, 10:22:17 AM
I have a harness you can try. If it works, then bingo (and you pay me for the part). If it doesn't, just send it back.
$150 shipped. [thumbsup]
wow, take that deal. bet you paid more than that for the troubleshooting so far
Quote from: howie on August 26, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
In the world of motorcycle repair it sounds like your tech is hands above most others just because he is using a scope. If the tech can take a snap shot of the pattern you could post the pattern and that from a known good bike I might be able to help.
He said he has 20+ years of experience. I will bring up about a snap shot and comparison tomorrow. Thx.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 25, 2010, 08:20:34 PM
Electricals are a kick in the ass, aren't they? :P
Yes they are. I noticed from the diagram that there is a shit load of wiring on this bike.
Quote from: TAftonomos on August 26, 2010, 10:22:17 AM
I have a harness you can try. If it works, then bingo (and you pay me for the part). If it doesn't, just send it back.
$150 shipped. [thumbsup]
That might be a plan. I appreciate the help. Let me talk to the tech tomorrow and see where he is. If he wants me to get the harness and try it, I will PM you tomorrow. If that is cool with you?
This was kind of funny. I called the shop the day before yesterday and asked if the wiring harness and connections had been checked, as SpeedDog and others had suggested. They said that they had already been ruled out. The service manager called my house yesterday and asked it I had the manual for the bike. They wanted the wiring diagram out of it. I don't know if they found something, want to recheck something, or if they didn't check it to begin with. I just thought that was interesting that they needed it two days after I called and asked.
I think it's weird a shop would call a customer and ask for literature to fix the bike..... hell, I'd be embarrassed to even think of asking.
In any case, it sure sounds like a break in the harness somewhere to me. My 03 did this one time, and after make the beast with two backsing with it for hours on end, I just replaced the harness. Worse than yours, the bike wouldn't start (sometimes) but would other times. It left me stranded once about 500 miles from home, and that was the last straw.
When all the diagnosis "fails", you start throwing parts at the thing until it gets fixed, and move on. Replacing the harness isn't terribly hard to do, but is a bit time consuming because of the battery box. Should take and hour or 2 (tops).
If you've tried swapping coils and it doesn't follow the coil.........
I agree with the wire harness recommendation. If its not a mechanical issue and the tech has swapped all the other parts then its in the harness. Your lucky the problem is easily replicated and not intermittent. I have serious problems with them asking for your wiring diagram. If the tech truly used an oscilliscope then he should have had a diagram in front of him.
Is it fixed yet?